Gary 'the ears' Lineker is a prick - discuss

  • The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Is Gary Lineker a massive fartfaced prick

  • Yes

    Votes: 30 26.1%
  • Super Yes

    Votes: 18 15.7%
  • Bigger yes than his ears

    Votes: 55 47.8%
  • No, I love the gooners

    Votes: 12 10.4%

  • Total voters
    115
The Nazis were always right wing, weren't they?
This is a more interesting debate than I originally thought it would be. My initial reaction to RomanzoCriminale RomanzoCriminale 's claims were much the same as everyone else (i.e. what a load of bollocks), but now I'm not so sure.

We see time and time again here that views - or at least the way views are expressed - are polarised: it's either black or it's white. Seems to me there might be a bit of grey here. Take this 1998 article by the late George Watson in The Independent (emphasis mine).

Hitler and the socialist dream

He declared that 'national socialism was based on Marx' Socialists have always disowned him. But a new book insists that he was, at heart, a left-winger

In April 1945, when Adolf Hitler died by his own hand in the rubble of Berlin, nobody was much interested in what he had once believed. That was to be expected. War is no time for reflection, and what Hitler had done was so shattering, and so widely known through images of naked bodies piled high in mass graves, that little or no attention could readily be paid to National Socialism as an idea. It was hard to think of it as an idea at all. Hitler, who had once looked a crank or a clown, was exposed as the leader of a gang of thugs, and the world was content to know no more than that.

Half a century on, there is much to be said. Even thuggery can have its reasons, and the materials that have newly appeared, though they may not transform judgement, undoubtedly enrich and deepen it. Confidants of Hitler. such as the late Albert Speer, have published their reminiscences; his wartime table-talk is a book; early revelations like Hermann Rauschning's Hitler Speaks of 1939 have been validated by painstaking research, and the notes of dead Nazis like Otto Wagener have been edited, along with a full text of Goebbels's diary.

It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists, and that others, including democratic socialists, thought so too. The title of National Socialism was not hypocritical. The evidence before 1945 was more private than public, which is perhaps significant in itself. In public Hitler was always anti-Marxist, and in an age in which the Soviet Union was the only socialist state on earth, and with anti-Bolshevism a large part of his popular appeal, he may have been understandably reluctant to speak openly of his sources. His megalomania, in any case, would have prevented him from calling himself anyone's disciple. That led to an odd and paradoxical alliance between modern historians and the mind of a dead dictator. Many recent analysts have fastidiously refused to study the mind of Hitler; and they accept, as unquestioningly as many Nazis did in the 1930s, the slogan "Crusade against Marxism" as a summary of his views. An age in which fascism has become a term of abuse is unlikely to analyse it profoundly.

His private conversations, however, though they do not overturn his reputation as an anti-Communist, qualify it heavily. Hermann Rauschning, for example, a Danzig Nazi who knew Hitler before and after his accession to power in 1933, tells how in private Hitler acknowledged his profound debt to the Marxian tradition. "I have learned a great deal from Marxism" he once remarked, "as I do not hesitate to admit". He was proud of a knowledge of Marxist texts acquired in his student days before the First World War and later in a Bavarian prison, in 1924, after the failure of the Munich putsch. The trouble with Weimar Republic politicians, he told Otto Wagener at much the same time, was that "they had never even read Marx", implying that no one who had failed to read so important an author could even begin to understand the modern world; in consequence, he went on, they imagined that the October revolution in 1917 had been "a private Russian affair", whereas in fact it had changed the whole course of human history! His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.

That is a devastating remark and it is blunter than anything in his speeches or in Mein Kampf.; though even in the autobiography he observes that his own doctrine was fundamentally distinguished from the Marxist by reason that it recognised the significance of race - implying, perhaps, that it might otherwise easily look like a derivative. Without race, he went on, National Socialism "would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its own ground". Marxism was internationalist. The proletariat, as the famous slogan goes, has no fatherland. Hitler had a fatherland, and it was everything to him.

Yet privately, and perhaps even publicly, he conceded that National Socialism was based on Marx. On reflection, it makes consistent sense. The basis of a dogma is not the dogma, much as the foundation of a building is not the building, and in numerous ways National Socialism was based on Marxism. It was a theory of history and not, like liberalism or social democracy, a mere agenda of legislative proposals. And it was a theory of human, not just of German, history, a heady vision that claimed to understand the whole past and future of mankind. Hitler's discovery was that socialism could be national as well as international. There could be a national socialism. That is how he reportedly talked to his fellow Nazi Otto Wagener in the early 1930s. The socialism of the future would lie in "the community of the volk", not in internationalism, he claimed, and his task was to "convert the German volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists", meaning the entrepreneurial and managerial classes left from the age of liberalism. They should be used, not destroyed. The state could control, after all, without owning, guided by a single party, the economy could be planned and directed without dispossessing the propertied classes.

That realisation was crucial. To dispossess, after all, as the Russian civil war had recently shown, could only mean Germans fighting Germans, and Hitler believed there was a quicker and more efficient route. There could be socialism without civil war.


Now that the age of individualism had ended, he told Wagener, the task was to "find and travel the road from individualism to socialism without revolution". Marx and Lenin had seen the right goal, but chosen the wrong route - a long and needlessly painful route - and, in destroying the bourgeois and the kulak, Lenin had turned Russia into a grey mass of undifferentiated humanity, a vast anonymous horde of the dispossessed; they had "averaged downwards"; whereas the National Socialist state would raise living standards higher than capitalism had ever known. It is plain that Hitler and his associates meant their claim to socialism to be taken seriously; they took it seriously themselves.

For half a century, none the less, Hitler has been portrayed, if not as a conservative - the word is many shades too pale - at least as an extreme instance of the political right. It is doubtful if he or his friends would have recognised the description. His own thoughts gave no prominence to left and right, and he is unlikely to have seen much point in any linear theory of politics. Since he had solved for all time the enigma of history, as he imagined, National Socialism was unique. The elements might be at once diverse and familiar, but the mix was his.

Hitler's mind, it has often been noticed, was in many ways backward-looking: not medievalising, on the whole, like Victorian socialists such as Ruskin and William Morris, but fascinated by a far remoter past of heroic virtue. It is now widely forgotten that much the same could be said of Marx and Engels.

It is the issue of race, above all, that for half a century has prevented National Socialism from being seen as socialist. The proletariat may have no fatherland, as Lenin said. But there were still, in Marx's view, races that would have to be exterminated. That is a view he published in January-February 1849 in an article by Engels called "The Hungarian Struggle" in Marx's journal the Neue Rheinische Zeitung, and the point was recalled by socialists down to the rise of Hitler. It is now becoming possible to believe that Auschwitz was socialist-inspired. The Marxist theory of history required and demanded genocide for reasons implicit in its claim that feudalism was already giving place to capitalism, which must in its turn be superseded by socialism. Entire races would be left behind after a workers' revolution, feudal remnants in a socialist age; and since they could not advance two steps at a time, they would have to be killed. They were racial trash, as Engels called them, and fit only for the dung-heap of history.

That brutal view, which a generation later was to be fortified by the new pseudo-science of eugenics, was by the last years of the century a familiar part of the socialist tradition, though it is understandable that since the liberation of Auschwitz in January 1945 socialists have been eager to forget it. But there is plenty of evidence in the writings of HG Wells, Jack London, Havelock Ellis, the Webbs and others to the effect that socialist commentators did not flinch from drastic measures. The idea of ethnic cleansing was orthodox socialism for a century and more.

So the socialist intelligentsia of the western world entered the First World War publicly committed to racial purity and white domination and no less committed to violence. Socialism offered them a blank cheque, and its licence to kill included genocide. In 1933, in a preface to On the Rocks, for example, Bernard Shaw publicly welcomed the exterminatory principle which the Soviet Union had already adopted. Socialists could now take pride in a state that had at last found the courage to act, though some still felt that such action should be kept a secret. In 1932 Beatrice Webb remarked at a tea-party what "very bad stage management" it had been to allow a party of British visitors to the Ukraine to see cattle-trucks full of starving "enemies of the state" at a local station. "Ridiculous to let you see them", said Webb, already an eminent admirer of the Soviet system. "The English are always so sentimental" adding, with assurance: "You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs." A few years later, in 1935, a Social Democratic government in Sweden began a eugenic programme for the compulsory sterilisation of gypsies, the backward and the unfit, and continued it until after the war.


The claim that Hitler cannot really have been a socialist because he advocated and practised genocide suggests a monumental failure, then, in the historical memory. Only socialists in that age advocated or practised genocide, at least in Europe, and from the first years of his political career Hitler was proudly aware of the fact. Addressing his own party, the NSDAP, in Munich in August 1920, he pledged his faith in socialist-racialism: "If we are socialists, then we must definitely be anti-semites - and the opposite, in that case, is Materialism and Mammonism, which we seek to oppose." There was loud applause. Hitler went on: "How, as a socialist, can you not be an anti-semite?" The point was widely understood, and it is notable that no German socialist in the 1930s or earlier ever sought to deny Hitler's right to call himself a socialist on grounds of racial policy. In an age when the socialist tradition of genocide was familiar, that would have sounded merely absurd. The tradition, what is more, was unique. In the European century that began in the 1840s from Engels's article of 1849 down to the death of Hitler, everyone who advocated genocide called himself a socialist, and no exception has been found.

The first reactions to National Socialism outside Germany are now largely forgotten. They were highly confused, for the rise of fascism had caught the European left by surprise. There was nothing in Marxist scripture to predict it and must have seemed entirely natural to feel baffled. Where had it all come from? Harold Nicolson, a democratic socialist, and after 1935 a Member of the House of Commons, conscientiously studied a pile of pamphlets in his hotel room in Rome in January 1932 and decided judiciously that fascism (Italian-style) was a kind of militarised socialism; though it destroyed liberty, he concluded in his diary, "it is certainly a socialist experiment in that it destroys individuality". The Moscow view that fascism was the last phase of capitalism, though already proposed, was not yet widely heard. Richard remarked in a 1934 BBC talk that many students in Nazi Germany believed they were "digging the foundations of a new German socialism".

By the outbreak of civil war in Spain, in 1936, sides had been taken, and by then most western intellectuals were certain that Stalin was left and Hitler was right. That sudden shift of view has not been explained, and perhaps cannot be explained, except on grounds of argumentative convenience. Single binary oppositions - cops-and-robbers or cowboys-and-indians - are always satisfying. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was seen by hardly anybody as an attempt to restore the unity of socialism. A wit at the British Foreign Office is said to have remarked that all the "Isms" were now "Wasms", and the general view was that nothing more than a cynical marriage of convenience had taken place.

By the outbreak of world war in 1939 the idea that Hitler was any sort of socialist was almost wholly dead. One may salute here an odd but eminent exception. Writing as a committed socialist just after the fall of France in 1940, in The Lion and the Unicorn, Orwell saw the disaster as a "physical debunking of capitalism", it showed once and for all that "a planned economy is stronger than a planless one", though he was in no doubt that Hitler's victory was a tragedy for France and for mankind. The planned economy had long stood at the head of socialist demands; and National Socialism, Orwell argued, had taken from socialism "just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes". Hitler had already come close to socialising Germany. "Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a socialist state." These words were written just before Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union. Orwell believed that Hitler would go down in history as "the man who made the City of London laugh on the wrong side of its face" by forcing financiers to see that planning works and that an economic free-for-all does not.

At its height, Hitler's appeal transcended party division. Shortly before they fell out in the summer of 1933, Hitler uttered sentiments in front of Otto Wagener, which were published after his death in 1971 as a biography by an unrepentant Nazi. Wagener's Hitler: Memoirs of a Confidant, composed in a British prisoner-of-war camp, did not appear until 1978 in the original German, and arrived in English, without much acclaim, as recently as 1985. Hitler's remembered talk offers a vision of a future that draws together many of the strands that once made utopian socialism irresistibly appealing to an age bred out of economic depression and cataclysmic wars; it mingles, as Victorian socialism had done before it, an intense economic radicalism with a romantic enthusiasm for a vanished age before capitalism had degraded heroism into sordid greed and threatened the traditional institutions of the family and the tribe.

Socialism, Hitler told Wagener shortly after he seized power, was not a recent invention of the human spirit, and when he read the New Testament he was often reminded of socialism in the words of Jesus. The trouble was that the long ages of Christianity had failed to act on the Master's teachings. Mary and Mary Magdalen, Hitler went on in a surprising flight of imagination, had found an empty tomb, and it would be the task of National Socialism to give body at long last to the sayings of a great teacher: "We are the first to exhume these teachings." The Jew, Hitler told Wagener, was not a socialist, and the Jesus they crucified was the true creator of socialist redemption. As for communists, he opposed them because they created mere herds, Soviet-style, without individual life, and his own ideal was "the socialism of nations" rather than the international socialism of Marx and Lenin. The one and only problem of the age, he told Wagener, was to liberate labour and replace the rule of capital over labour with the rule of labour over capital.

These are highly socialist sentiments, and if Wagener reports his master faithfully they leave no doubt about the conclusion: that Hitler was an unorthodox Marxist who knew his sources and knew just how unorthodox the way in which he handled them was. He was a dissident socialist. His programme was at once nostalgic and radical. It proposed to accomplish something that Christians had failed to act on and that communists before him had attempted and bungled. "What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish," he told Wagener, "we shall be in a position to achieve."

That was the National Socialist vision. It was seductive, at once traditional and new. Like all so- cialist views it was ultimately moral, and its economic and racial policies were seen as founded on universal moral laws. By the time such conversations saw the light of print, regrettably, the world had put such matters far behind it, and it was less than ever ready to listen to the sayings of a crank or a clown.

That is a pity. The crank, after all, had once offered a vision of the future that had made a Victorian doctrine of history look exciting to millions. Now that socialism is a discarded idea, such excitement is no doubt hard to recapture. To relive it again, in imagination, one might look at an entry in Goebbels's diaries. On 16 June 1941, five days before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Goebbels exulted, in the privacy of his diary, in the victory over Bolshevism that he believed would quickly follow. There would be no restoration of the tsars, he remarked to himself, after Russia had been conquered. But Jewish Bolshevism would be uprooted in Russia and "real socialism" planted in its place - "Der echte Sozialismus". Goebbels was a liar, to be sure, but no one can explain why he would lie to his diaries. And to the end of his days he believed that socialism was what National Socialism was about.
 
May I disagree with you here, Bill.

The first concentration camps in Germany were set up in 1933. Dachau, near Munich, was the first camp.
The then Sturmabteilung (SA) initially supervised the inmates.

In 1934, after the SA leadership was murdered by the SS, the SS took over supervision of the concentration camps. Dachau was the "model concentration camp" in which the bastard Theodor Eicke ruled. Here he determined the "catalogue of penalties", which then applied to all concentration camps in Germany.

On another point you have my full support.
When I hear from people from democratically run countries that we have "fascist conditions" etc., it makes me angry, because the actual fascists and National Socialists are more than downplayed.

I was lucky not to have to live a day under National Socialist leadership.
Who knows what would have become of me, a strapping SS criminal or a pastor or a resistance fighter or a follower?
No idea.
I have the greatest admiration for what the people who did - and if it was passive resistance - who stood up against the regime.
Yeah, that was pointed out earlier. I was confusing the setting up of concentration camps in the 30s, as you say, with the implementation of the "final solution" which got underway in 1941, namely the use of the camps for genocide on an industrial scale.

The over-use of the word "fascist" (and to a lesser extent "Nazi") is ridiculous, words cease to have meaning. Here in Spain, a certain kind of Catalan nationalist independentista will bandy the term about to include anybody who isn't in favour of an independent Catalonia, for whatever reason. People who were imprisoned or who had to flee into exile under Franco's regime - real fascism - are apparently indistinguishable from jack-booted zieg-heiling Nazis.
 
The point (both on here and by most historians in general) has been made that although they called themselves socialists…they were anything but.

Honestly you are brain dead if you think quoting Hitler himself proves you right.

So no. No mic drop for you. Just another post to complete your utter humiliation.

I’m legitimately embarrassed for you.

Start a gofundme to put yourself through education again. I’ll contribute.

DM me a link. No need to reply though coz nobody with a brain cares what you have to say.

In fact you may just have won the stupidest post in the history of TFC award.
We are going to get David Irvine introduced to this soon aren't we? (I've still got 5 pages of the thread to read so let's just see what unfolds, I'm not holding my breath).
 
Donald Trump GIF by Election 2016


I know someone who said the max anyone gets is a tenner, that does not make me a reliable source
So despite me giving you a link you and that other cretinous prick still argue.

I'm not breaking it down for some sponging bastard to claim benefits, so you and Roger the work dodger will have to try again.
 
If you think the slimy odious toad had an ego before , forget it now. He will be preaching his politics every time he can now.
Good thing about all of this, is more licence’s will be cancelled, and it’s another nail in the coffin . Won’t be long before it’s a ppv service
 
In a police state like Germany in the 1930s the LANGUAGE was completely controlled by the Nazis. So this is semantic nonsense. Lineker knew exactly what he was doing.
If you can't make the connection between the language used by the current government and that of 1930's Germany then perhaps a pictorial reference may best be in order....

Germany in the 1930's
cartoon-austrian.jpg

(Das Klien Blatt 1939)


UK in 2000's
2E82312A00000578-0-image-a-144_1447722089455.jpg

(Daily Mail 2015)
 
If you can't make the connection between the language used by the current government and that of 1930's Germany then perhaps a pictorial reference may best be in order....

Germany in the 1930's
cartoon-austrian.jpg

(Das Klien Blatt 1939)


UK in 2000's
2E82312A00000578-0-image-a-144_1447722089455.jpg

(Daily Mail 2015)
Undoubtedly there are common points (pretty much anything that used to come out of Katie Hopkins's mouth for example), but there are numerous points where they diverge.

Sorry for using a proper Guardianista term, but there needs to be a good deal of nuance, here and elsewhere. Obviously, Twitter isn't the best platform for balanced argument and subtlety however.
 
A worthwhile read, because it's very concise, for those attempting to argue that Hitler (and the Nazi party were a socialist ideology):


For very, very detailed information and easily the greatest book out of the hundreds that have been written about Hitler I can't recommend Hitler by Ian Kershaw high enough. You are left in no uncertain terms who he was, where supposition is used he makes it clear and why. (It's a tad dated now but the other defacto book on the Third Reich is William Shirer - so if there were only two books to read then it would be these two. But I guarantee if you do read these two then you will be most likely by now properly engaged and will likely be reading many many more but from a very informed base).
 
If you think the slimy odious toad had an ego before , forget it now. He will be preaching his politics every time he can now.
Good thing about all of this, is more licence’s will be cancelled, and it’s another nail in the coffin . Won’t be long before it’s a ppv service
Exactly..nobody has a thought for the long term job security of hundreds of full time bbc staff..as someone involved in some tv and film production the bbc is massively overstaffed already..well known a bbc prod will usually use twice the amount off staff and independent prod will.... thanks gary.
 
If you can't make the connection between the language used by the current government and that of 1930's Germany then perhaps a pictorial reference may best be in order....

Germany in the 1930's
cartoon-austrian.jpg

(Das Klien Blatt 1939)


UK in 2000's
2E82312A00000578-0-image-a-144_1447722089455.jpg

(Daily Mail 2015)
To illustrate your point you have chosen a cartoon from the Daily Mail to represent "the language used by the current government".

The other one is from an Austrian newspaper, but that is not a problem since in 1939 the Nazis had annexed Austria, much like the current government has annexed ... nobody.

Incidentally, for what it's worth, I think the policy just announced is a bad one that will fail in the courts, won't lead to returns because the government has too few agreements with the countries that should take people back, and the main bit that will be implemented is giving a lot more money to France for no obvious gain. None of this means that the government is like Germany in the 1930s.
 
Last edited:
To illustrate your point you have chosen a cartoon from the Daily Mail to represent "the language used by the current government".

The other one is from an Austrian newspaper, but that is not a problem since in 1939 the Nazis had annexed Austria, much like the current government has annexed ... nobody.

Incidentally, for what it's worth, I think the policy just announced is a bad one that will fail in the courts, won't lead to returns because the government has too few agreements with the countries that should take people back, and the main bit that will be implemented is giving a lot more money to France for no obvious gain. None of this means that the government is like Germany in the 1930s.
The Daily Mail's readership is predominantly conservative (broken down by every single individual aspect of demographic measures). It has publicly declared it's backing this Government.

Agree with your last para with the exception that "the Government is like Germany in the 1930's". It's NOT, but their language and the rhetoric used on immigration topics and policy is.
 
The Daily Mail's readership is predominantly conservative (broken down by every single individual aspect of demographic measures). It has publicly declared it's backing this Government.

Agree with your last para with the exception that "the Government is like Germany in the 1930's". It's NOT, but their language and the rhetoric used on immigration topics and policy is.
Should be easy for you to point to a government statement that is mirroring the language of the Nazis then.

Maybe you could point to something in this text that you think is Nazi-like?
Home Secretary statement on the Illegal Immigration Bill
 
Last edited:
Should be easy for you to point to a government statement that is mirroring the language of the Nazis then.

Maybe you could point to something in this text that you think is Nazi-like?
Home Secretary statement on the Illegal Immigration Bill

How about the tweet the Conservatives sent out where they boasted that illegal immigrants won’t receive protections from modern slavery?

What does that sound like to you? Because it sounds like dehumanisation to me. We won’t lift a finger to help other human beings because they’re ‘illegal’ or ‘other’.

As Guido 🇺🇦 Guido 🇺🇦 says, holocaust survivors have pointed out the similarities. That’s good enough for me, they lived through that Hell. And from my own perspective I can absolutely see that they’re being addressed as some abstract ‘ problem’ rather than actual human beings .. which is what can lead to terrible things.
 
How about the tweet the Conservatives sent out where they boasted that illegal immigrants won’t receive protections from modern slavery?

What does that sound like to you? Because it sounds like dehumanisation to me. We won’t lift a finger to help other human beings because they’re ‘illegal’ or ‘other’.

As Guido 🇺🇦 Guido 🇺🇦 says, holocaust survivors have pointed out the similarities. That’s good enough for me, they lived through that Hell. And from my own perspective I can absolutely see that they’re being addressed as some abstract ‘ problem’ rather than actual human beings .. which is what can lead to terrible things.
As I understand it the main point about the Modern Slavery Act is about the referrals process. The reason they call it a "loophole" is the huge increase in referrals from civil society organisations claiming that illegal arrivals are victims of modern slavery when in fact they are economic migrants.

The Home Office makes a decision on whether a person is a real victim of modern slavery or not, if they decide they are then the person gets full protection during a period of recovery. However, once the person is freed from whatever unfair enslaving agreement they were subject to and also recovered from any injuries they are evaluated against immigration law criteria.

The great majority of the increase in referrals under the Act are people from Albania, Albanian nationals were about a third of all referrals last year. That's why they made the agreement with the Albanian government on take backs. Once an Albanian citizen is free from slavery and healthy it is very unlikely they will get permission to stay in the UK.

You can like this system or not like it, but it has nothing to do with Germany in the 1930s. The fact the UK has a Modern Slavery Act that is enforced is a bit of a clue that there might be a difference.
 
Back
Top Bottom