Atmosphere (again)

[palmers_green_yid]

Reading the thread about the surfer flag, this is a list of 10 things which I think would really improve the atmosphere. Feel free to add or debate any of them. I am aware that very few, if any of these, would ever happen due to the various reasons that have caused football to become sanitised in the first place, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss this anyway. In no particular order:

1. A law being passed which states that professional football clubs must devote 1% of the total wage bill to subsidising ticket prices.
2. An end to football banning orders.
3. Violence at football to be given the same treatment by the law as it would if not committed in a football setting, such as down the pub.
4. Introduce safe standing areas.
5. The Park Lane lower being a terrace devoted to hardcore fans, with subsidised tickets being available there, and a blind eye turned to offensive chanting, gestures etc in this section. Families and quiet fans should be discouraged from standing there.
6. Let in ticker tape and flags of any size to the above area. Flags are created by the fans independently of the club and do not have to be vetted or endorsed by the club.
7. Better stocked, cheaper bars in the concourses. Let people drink on the Park Lane terrace.
8. An end to this whole farce about not being allowed to say YIDS. And not being allowed Star of David flags (as a side note, this latter point is surely something enforced by the club at the moment, not the law?)
9. Away fans given an allocation which is 10% of capacity, as in Germany
10. Changes to football itself:
Make the CL for the champions only. CL games on Tuesday nights. A straight knockout competition.
UEFA Cup on Wednesday nights. Again a straight knockout competition. Top leagues should have 5 places, so from England those would be the teams finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and the winners of the league and FA Cups. Accordingly, there would be more Saturday 3pm kick offs, and more interest in the league and FA Cup.
Stricter rules on financial fair play.
A rule stating all clubs must have a quota of home grown players.

 

[BushHillSpurs]

Point number 3 is going to be an interesting one.

3. Violence at football to be given the same treatment by the law as it would if not committed in a football setting, such as down the pub.

I know of someone who got 6 months in prison for throwing a bottle when when West Ham fronted Spurs.



Agree on all points by the way. As you said not many if any will ever happen.

 

[Tucker]

I think we need to be realistic here, there's no chance of all that happening. But really all the laws enacted as a result of hillsborough need reviewing. As the police and government clearly fucked that up.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Point number 3 is going to be an interesting one.



I know of someone who got 6 months in prison for throwing a bottle when when West Ham fronted Spurs.



Agree on all points by the way. As you said not many if any will ever happen.

It doesn't surprise me mate.

The fact of the matter is violence is no more dangerous or harmful at football than anywhere else. So it should be dealt with in the same way.

I actually can't see any of my points hurting the profits of the businesses in question or ruining the match day experience of the jcl's/corporates/quiet fans to a very large extent...and yet they still won't do it.

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

Point number 3 is going to be an interesting one.



I know of someone who got 6 months in prison for throwing a bottle when when West Ham fronted Spurs.



Agree on all points by the way. As you said not many if any will ever happen.

A Yid in the Brighton vs ASC/YA set-to a year or two back got 18 months for 'waving his arms about in an aggressive manner'.

 

[BushHillSpurs]

A Yid in the Brighton vs ASC/YA set-to a year or two back got 18 months for 'waving his arms about in an aggressive manner'.

I know who your on about. DH...
Football sentences are so skewed with the actual crime its unreal.

 

[57 varieties]

I know who your on about. DH...
Football sentences are so skewed with the actual crime its unreal.

[ts fucking jcls with fucking camera phones!..

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

Was actually 27 months!

Also

xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx - can be seen in the mobile phone footage trying to break off a young tree to use as a weapon.
TWO AND A HALF YEARS

 

[pallmallpunch]

It doesn't surprise me mate.

The fact of the matter is violence is no more dangerous or harmful at football than anywhere else. So it should be dealt with in the same way.

I actually can't see any of my points hurting the profits of the businesses in question or ruining the match day experience of the jcl's/corporates/quiet fans to a very large extent...and yet they still won't do it.

The difference is that pub fights or even gang violence is often localized and containable, whereas football violence is very threatening to the establishment because it happens anywhere and involves a very large number of people. I think part of the reason the government in the UK took such a strong stance in the 80s and 90s has a lot less to do with Hillsborough and a lot more to do with what they saw happening in Eastern Europe (and to an extent, England) at the time, i.e. football hooligans and political organizations mixing freely. Left and right. Often leading to anti-state violence. Can't have that now can we.

I'd love for the club to design the new stadium with an eye that one terrace could be converted to safe standing in the future. Or even build it with the safe standing rail seats in place, just permanently folded down until the day for action came. Our club would never be that aggressive about something like that though.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

A Yid in the Brighton vs ASC/YA set-to a year or two back got 18 months for 'waving his arms about in an aggressive manner'.

I heard about that. If they want to arrest you they find a reason.

 

[57 varieties]

I heard about that. If they want to arrest you they find a reason.

again some clown with a camera phone & identified by thfc's own F.I.O

 

[AlMacca_]

RE number 1, the club had the opportunity to do that this year. After the protest at the PL HQ in London every club was given 200k for the away fans. Few clubs such as Man U and Liverpool used that to take 3/4 quid off every away ticket. We used it for cheap coach travel put on by the club that you obviously can't drink on.

 

[Thelonious]

agree with 5, they should have warnings for people buying tickets in PLL or on the shelf, fairly certain I read about a bloke who complained that people were swearing around his young child in block 33.

 

[57 varieties]

simple answer really is the atmospheres gone because the people who made the atmosphere have gone!
if not by there own means but by the clubs & authorities means... but those days will not return.
fair play to 1882 for doing what thay do, but football grounds have been sanitised & for atmosphere that's a killer..
anyone will tell you that the lane was always buzzing when there was a moodiness & hostility to it!. no other clubs fans liked coming here because of it...

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

A lot of old school chaps look down on 'barmies' but, like 57, i have a lot of respect for 1882 for at least trying to do something about the atmosphere rather than just moaning about how shit it is.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

The difference is that pub fights or even gang violence is often localized and containable, whereas football violence is very threatening to the establishment because it happens anywhere and involves a very large number of people. I think part of the reason the government in the UK took such a strong stance in the 80s and 90s has a lot less to do with Hillsborough and a lot more to do with what they saw happening in Eastern Europe (and to an extent, England) at the time, i.e. football hooligans and political organizations mixing freely. Left and right. Often leading to anti-state violence. Can't have that now can we.

I'd love for the club to design the new stadium with an eye that one terrace could be converted to safe standing in the future. Or even build it with the safe standing rail seats in place, just permanently folded down until the day for action came. Our club would never be that aggressive about something like that though.

Interesting about anti-state violence. I wasn't aware about much of that in Eastern Europe during the 80s and 90s, except for Solidarity which, as I understand, was made up of a lot of football lads and obviously led to the overthrowing of the Communist regime in Poland. I know of the overlap between politics (both left and right wing) and football in Italy, and how this used to pose a threat to the state. Presume that with the reference to England, you are talking about the NF infiltrating Chelsea, West Ham etc?

It may have something to do with the punitive laws...I believe the state is more paranoid than we think. However, it's not a valid reason as no such link exists in this country at the moment, and the political organisations themselves could be dealt with if and when it did exist, if they were a legitimate threat to anyone. Also, I don't agree that football violence involves a very large number of people. In some ways it is harder to contain than a pub brawl, but in other ways it is easier as a police presence is generally already there or near. And gang violence is a much bigger problem and harder to contain IMO.

 

[ScreaminNorman]

5. The Park Lane lower being a terrace devoted to hardcore fans, with subsidised tickets being available there, and a blind eye turned to offensive chanting, gestures etc in this section. Families and quiet fans should be discouraged from standing there.

I don't think subsiding tickets in park lane would help as surely anyone would go for the cheaper tickets ?(More/same £ for better atmosphere and you know you would be with like minded people) Do this with paxton to encourage families to go to more football games.

Also giving away fans 10% thing let away fans have most of the west stand would improve atmosphere in general equally around the ground.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

A lot of old school chaps look down on 'barmies' but, like 57, i have a lot of respect for 1882 for at least trying to do something about the atmosphere rather than just moaning about how shit it is.

I agree, I respect them as well. They are trying to do something about it, and what they are trying is much better than a club endorsed surfer flag. Also, I went to the game at Barnet and they actually enjoy themselves and have a laugh, and I respect them for this as well.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I don't think subsiding tickets in park lane would help as surely anyone would go for the cheaper tickets ?(More/same £ for better atmosphere and you know you would be with like minded people) Do this with paxton to encourage families to go to more football games.

Also giving away fans 10% thing let away fans have most of the west stand would improve atmosphere in general equally around the ground.

Interesting points. Maybe keep the prices for children the same for PLL, to keep them away? Do kids not already get something of a discount in the Paxton? I'm not sure we need more families to be honest, we need more 16-25 year olds as well as getting back older supporters who have become disillusioned/banned/priced out. Anyway, like I said people should be warned as to what certain areas of the ground are like so when they get there they can't complain about language, standing etc.

 

[pallmallpunch]

Interesting about anti-state violence. I wasn't aware about much of that in Eastern Europe during the 80s and 90s, except for Solidarity which, as I understand, was made up of a lot of football lads and obviously led to the overthrowing of the Communist regime in Poland. I know of the overlap between politics (both left and right wing) and football in Italy, and how this used to pose a threat to the state. Presume that with the reference to England, you are talking about the NF infiltrating Chelsea, West Ham etc?

Yeah that's what I meant. Also the unique case of Red Star Belgrade's firm as front line soldiers in the Yugoslavian conflict, though that was less like NF or any left wing groups in mainland Europe, but still anti-state (or against the state that existed at the time).

It may have something to do with the punitive laws...I believe the state is more paranoid than we think. However, it's not a valid reason as no such link exists in this country at the moment, and the political organisations themselves could be dealt with if and when it did exist, if they were a legitimate threat to anyone. Also, I don't agree that football violence involves a very large number of people. In some ways it is harder to contain than a pub brawl, but in other ways it is easier as a police presence is generally already there or near. And gang violence is a much bigger problem and harder to contain IMO.

It doesn't always, but it did in a lot of cases, especially involving England matches, which obviously reflects poorly on the country in the media. Another reason for the clampdown. I agree that gang violence is a bigger problem (especially here in the US) but I don't think the authorities in either country see it that way. Poor killing poor. No loss for them, perhaps even a net gain if a dependent is no longer on the books. An example close to me would be Chicago. Over 6,000 murders since 2001, mostly young poor black men. That's nearly as much as the US and UK have lost in Afghanistan and Iraq combined in that time period. They only care about the dead if it makes them look bad or threatens their jobs. That's what Hillsborough represented, so they overreacted. That's what large-scale football violence represented, a threat to their power. So they crushed it.

If it had stayed a localized thing in poor communities around the old football grounds they'd have let it continue, much as it did in the 60s and 70s.