Atmosphere (again)

[Greaves357_bestever]

That may be true in general, but it's not in my case. I'm far louder than the average young supporter at the Lane. In fact I'm louder than pretty much anyone.

That may be true in general, but it's not in my case. I'm far louder than the average young supporter at the Lane. In fact I'm louder than pretty much anyone.

Oh and also I have less money than many young people, so as generalisations go ...

Incidentally, that's not just me, a lot of older people struggle massively to make ends meet. I think you'll find if you told a lot of cold and hungry pensioners this winter they have more money than young people, their failing lungs might muster a rather rude reply.

To me when I look at how well off many of the younger members of my family are compared to me, it's something to make me rather jealous!

 

[r-u-s-x]

yep always going to be exceptions but you need to generalise.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

1. Agree 100%, ticket prices are outrageous, there needs to be an upper limit for most sections of the ground, multi-buy deals, more family deals….not just for the select low category games, but all games.
2. Can’t see that ever happening – and I do think banning orders for certain incidents are correct.
3. Agree – Once again it smacks that these people who hand out the sentences think that football fans are seen as a separate breed to the rest of society, being linked to the hooligan days that really don’t exist anymore.
4. Needs to be done and seriously looked into. Things have moved on and there’s viable options available now to make standing safe, probably safer than having seats.
5. How can you ascertain who’s a “hardcore” fan…we’re all hard core in our own way, no? Agree certain sections should come with a warming that there’s a “no-hold barred” attitude towards the language used.
6. Agree
7. Drinking will never be allowed on the terraces again, that’s the law, it’ll never change
8. We’ll all be chanting Yid’s until we decide not to use it, no one can tell us we can’t
9. Yep, agree once again, and also have a price on these tickets capped
10. Changes to football itself:
Make the CL for the champions only. CL games on Tuesday nights. A straight knockout competition
UEFA Cup on Wednesday nights. Again a straight knockout competition. Top leagues should have 5 places, so from England those would be the teams finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and the winners of the league and FA Cups. Accordingly, there would be more Saturday 3pm kick offs, and more interest in the league and FA Cup.
Stricter rules on financial fair play.
A rule stating all clubs must have a quota of home grown players
Agree with all those points, except maybe the home grown quota……Assuming it’s to do with the national side……England have always been shit, no amount of home grown players will change that, no matter what people say. When was the last time England were any good? Protection of young players coming through, instead of being cast aside is the way forward. Structured progress through the clubs, wage caps until they are 18, no transfers for anyone under 18. That’s the way to get players through the academies and into the 1st teams.

1. Fair point, I suppose what I meant is for fans who want to create an atmosphere, make the ground intimidating for away players/fans and sing no matter what the score is.
2. Not about the national side, couldn't give a fuck about them , all this was supposed to be to do with atmosphere. I think having home grown players means that the players would relate more to the fans. They are more likely to have a bond with the club, to understand what the club means and they are more likely to be lifelong Tottenham fans themselves than other players. I also think it would curb the influence of teams like Man City and Chelsea who try and "buy" the league, and therefore make the Premier League more open and exciting, which would also improve atmosphere.

 

[1882]

Haha, no worries.

East lower, block 30. It's good for the big games but the small games are a different matter - I genuinely believe Sunday afternoon games have a big impact.

The stewards tend to be alright where I am as well I don't usually ask us to sit down, so it's not that...

Luckily i'm as short as a Smurf/8th Dwarf/Oompa-Loompah, so they can't tell if i'm even standing or not!!
HAPPY DAYS!

 

[Greaves357_bestever]

yep always going to be exceptions but you need to generalise.

I agree with that re loudness, I know I am exceptional on that score.

But the idea that old people have more money than young people is a very flawed generalisation - many do, many don't

 

[1882]

I guess the point is... despite my vested interest in lobbing some torn-up newspaper in the air as the teams come out, the REAL key is, if everyone in Block 35 sings LOUD and PROUD for 90 minutes, that in itself will generate an atmosphere in the other parts of the ground!
Simples!

 

[Flav]

Reading the thread about the surfer flag, this is a list of 10 things which I think would really improve the atmosphere. Feel free to add or debate any of them. I am aware that very few, if any of these, would ever happen due to the various reasons that have caused football to become sanitised in the first place, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss this anyway. In no particular order:

1. A law being passed which states that professional football clubs must devote 1% of the total wage bill to subsidising ticket prices.
2. An end to football banning orders.
3. Violence at football to be given the same treatment by the law as it would if not committed in a football setting, such as down the pub.
4. Introduce safe standing areas.
5. The Park Lane lower being a terrace devoted to hardcore fans, with subsidised tickets being available there, and a blind eye turned to offensive chanting, gestures etc in this section. Families and quiet fans should be discouraged from standing there.
6. Let in ticker tape and flags of any size to the above area. Flags are created by the fans independently of the club and do not have to be vetted or endorsed by the club.
7. Better stocked, cheaper bars in the concourses. Let people drink on the Park Lane terrace.
8. An end to this whole farce about not being allowed to say YIDS. And not being allowed Star of David flags (as a side note, this latter point is surely something enforced by the club at the moment, not the law?)
9. Away fans given an allocation which is 10% of capacity, as in Germany
10. Changes to football itself:
Make the CL for the champions only. CL games on Tuesday nights. A straight knockout competition.
UEFA Cup on Wednesday nights. Again a straight knockout competition. Top leagues should have 5 places, so from England those would be the teams finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and the winners of the league and FA Cups. Accordingly, there would be more Saturday 3pm kick offs, and more interest in the league and FA Cup.
Stricter rules on financial fair play.
A rule stating all clubs must have a quota of home grown players.

Turn this into an article please. Write an intro that's more generic and less FC centric and a conclusion. Could cause quite a stir. We'll stick it on the front page.

 

[ScreaminNorman]

I know in my previous post i wrote about encouraging families to go to football games. But heres some ideas...

• Less children or only make them sit in Paxton!(Seeing so many of them in Park lane)
• Stewards being less strict or just if the majority of people are standing in your section they will let you stand.
• Get 1% of the West stand to join in chants somehow... if not knock the stand down (1882 west stand anyone?? they would be in shock or in disgust that someone actually spoke during the game let alone chant)

 

[57 varieties]

have a good look who's sitting next to you next time your at football!

 

[jimmyriggle]

Some decent ideas here but not sure about the walk up tickets one. Our ticket office can barely cope with a couple of hundred customers per week. Imagine them trying to cope with 36000.
Would also be nigh on impossible to plan policing as you have no idea how many will show up to try to get in and away fans could mix easily with home fans

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I guess the point is... despite my vested interest in lobbing some torn-up newspaper in the air as the teams come out, the REAL key is, if everyone in Block 35 sings LOUD and PROUD for 90 minutes, that in itself will generate an atmosphere in the other parts of the ground!
Simples!

This really is the crux of it. I see all these suggestions and plans, but aside from maybe safe standing, I think it's mostly cosmetic. You can do all that the OP talks about and still have a shitty atmosphere. Whereas, in theory, none of these suggestions need to happen for there to be a good atmosphere and for people to have a reasonably priced chance to attend. A section where people can rise from their seats if they want to and sing with their hearts is all that's really needed. After all, that's pretty much how it was in the old days.

 

[57 varieties]

Some decent ideas here but not sure about the walk up tickets one. Our ticket office can barely cope with a couple of hundred customers per week. Imagine them trying to cope with 36000.
Would also be nigh on impossible to plan policing as you have no idea how many will show up to try to get in and away fans could mix easily with home fans

not at all.. pre registerd membership before hand..i'm not advocating the whole ground.. maybe one stand, first come etc!
as for walkup!!.. seen over 60k a number of times walk up & pay with no problems at the lane.. on one occasion plod judged the crowd locked out bigger than that inside the lane v Chelsea in the relegation derby early 70's.

uefa cup final v Anderlecht standing was walk up if I recall.
.

 

[Audere]

Walk up would be easily policed. 2to 3k tickets available for pre registered members. Open the doors 3 hours beforehand show your card. 2 tickets max per card. Stewards there to avoid cut ins. A 'snake' system of barriers.

Easy.

 

[Raiders]

1. A law being passed which states that professional football clubs must devote 1% of the total wage bill to subsidising ticket prices.

I don't really understand what you mean by total wage bill. I think you mean total wage costs of everyone at the club. However why? From a financial point of view it doesn't make sense to do this. Maybe I am from a different planet but what have wages (an expenditure) got to do with subsidising ticket prices.I perhaps would understand profit but seeing as most teams don't make profit... Maybe 1% of revenue to subside tickets. BUT what is better is just having a general ticket price cap for everyone. I don't really understand what a subsidized ticket is anyway...the club pay for half the ticket? Yes lower ticket prices might increase atmosphere.

2. An end to football banning orders.

Hmmm...The reason banning orders were brought in was because football grounds became out of control. This is not a high priority. You won't get one unless you have done something wrong. Might make hooligans perk up but why would you want that?

3. Violence at football to be given the same treatment by the law as it would if not committed in a football setting, such as down the pub.

I see your point. However at football minor anti social behaviour can cause large scale disorder. that is why the law is strict. Again will this increase atmosphere? probably not

4. Introduce safe standing areas.

Yes will increase atmosphere. I can see this happening but it will be difficult; football fans need to unite.

5. The Park Lane lower being a terrace devoted to hardcore fans, with subsidised tickets being available there, and a blind eye turned to offensive chanting, gestures etc in this section. Families and quiet fans should be discouraged from standing there.

I don't think anyone needs discouragement, people will know whether it is for them. Whether you like to hear this or not but the police already turn a blind eye to offensive chanting and behaviour at football. This word subsidised you keep using, as if someone else has to pay for them. What is wrong with just cheaper tickets. I mean the park lane is already kind for the hardcore fans. Safe standing will help atmosphere.

6. Let in ticker tape and flags of any size to the above area. Flags are created by the fans independently of the club and do not have to be vetted or endorsed by the club.

yep can only help

7. Better stocked, cheaper bars in the concourses. Let people drink on the Park Lane terrace.

People already turn up drunk at football. the intermittent breaks probably mean people drink more quickly anyway. Probably won't have an effect on atmosphere.

8. An end to this whole farce about not being allowed to say YIDS. And not being allowed Star of David flags (as a side note, this latter point is surely something enforced by the club at the moment, not the law?)

The football spectator laws are quite strict on religious imagery but the club are enforcing it. Stronger identity probably would increase atmosphere.

9. Away fans given an allocation which is 10% of capacity, as in Germany

Well atmosphere would be increased because the away fans would be making more noise.

10. Changes to football itself:

I don't agree with any of number 10.

 

[8cspurs8]

So many different points re atmosphere. Good and bad, possible and impossible, stupid and reasonable etc.

Don't like the use of old/young. 'Old' makes me think of elderly, not middle aged for example. Plenty of middle aged guys make noise. Also with younger fans, like myself, it's difficult too. Many are loud etc, but many aren't. There's many younger fans who have their tickets paid for by their parents and don't make much noise for example.

Cheaper tickets are 100% needed, that's not up for debate. I understand the need for a family stand. I don't like it, but understand it. As for the Park Lane, there's far too many families/women/tourists there. I'm sure the club used to try and sanitise the PL by putting certain people/groups there.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I don't really understand what you mean by total wage bill. I think you mean total wage costs of everyone at the club. However why? From a financial point of view it doesn't make sense to do this. Maybe I am from a different planet but what have wages (an expenditure) got to do with subsidising ticket prices.I perhaps would understand profit but seeing as most teams don't make profit... Maybe 1% of revenue to subside tickets. BUT what is better is just having a general ticket price cap for everyone. I don't really understand what a subsidized ticket is anyway...the club pay for half the ticket? Yes lower ticket prices might increase atmosphere.

Cheaper tickets, subsidized tickets, same difference. What I mean is that ticket prices should be lower. Yes, I mean the total wage costs of everyone at the club. Of course it doesn't make financial sense for the clubs to do this, but if they can afford to pay these gross wages to players, then they can afford to contribute a tiny part of that sum towards making it easier for fans to go to games OR reduce ticket prices (same basic outcome). If they literally can't afford this, then they need to stop paying stupid wages until they can.

Hmmm...The reason banning orders were brought in was because football grounds became out of control. This is not a high priority. You won't get one unless you have done something wrong. Might make hooligans perk up but why would you want that?

Have you not heard of the people who were banned for singing the Campbell song or the person recently banned for singing yid? Looking back further I can remember a 19 year old girl who was banned for throwing an (empty) water bottle at Darren Bent up at Sunderland one year. We've talked in this thread about someone not only banned but JAILED for moving his arms around, there was also the case of a famous older Spurs fan banned just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. in a bar near to where there was an off) in Holland without doing anything wrong (not banned anymore thankfully) and I've heard of someone else banned for picking up a chair and then putting it down again during a fight. There's also the register kept by the old bill which monitors fans' movements and writes you down in a book if you so much as talk to known hooligans. Then if you commit ANY offence at football, e.g. swearing or pushing someone in the heat of the moment, they can give you a banning order. See this article http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jun/17/football-hooliganism-laws I have no doubt that many of the posters here are on this list. I'm sorry but to say "you won't get one if you've done nothing wrong" is naive at best IMO.

Also, and I know this will be controversial, but yes I don't think it would be a bad thing if hoolies did perk up a little bit, and judging by comments on here I'm not the only person who thinks this. Obviously there are people who used to go for football just for a fight, but a large proportion of 'lads' are loyal fans who contribute a lot to the atmosphere, and used to contribute more in the 70s/80s/90s. It's no coincidence that the atmosphere used to be better when WHL was a more intimidating place to go. One of the best atmospheres I have experienced at a game in the UK was at Cardiff in the cup, a game in which both firms were out in force. Football violence is far from out of control at the moment, and it's incredibly rare that anyone who doesn't want to get caught up in it does; this was true even when it was more prevalent. Yes it costs a lot to police, but I doubt any more than the current 'police state' approach to football violence. So I think we can afford to loosen the laws, which would also have the positive effect of not demonizing football fans or banning people for next to nothing.

Whether you like to hear this or not but the police already turn a blind eye to offensive chanting and behaviour at football.

Well, my ST is in the Paxton but from what I've heard, in the Park Lane the away fans are allowed to get away with shouting whatever they want at Spurs fans but if anyone tries to respond they are threatened with being thrown out. This is hardly conducive to a good atmosphere.

People already turn up drunk at football. the intermittent breaks probably mean people drink more quickly anyway.

Fair point actually.

The football spectator laws are quite strict on religious imagery but the club are enforcing it

But the Star of David flag is a national flag, not religious imagery. If we are allowed English flags in football stadiums then surely by law we are allowed the Israeli equivalent. The club try and seem like they're on our side with the yids issue, but then they ban this when there is no need to.

I don't agree with any of number 10.

I would be genuinely and respectfully interested in why you don't agree with my suggestions on football. Am I right in saying you like the way modern football is structured, in terms of CL/EL and the other things I mention in this point?

 

[BernardMatthews]

Well, my ST is in the Paxton but from what I've heard, in the Park Lane the away fans are allowed to get away with shouting whatever they want at Spurs fans but if anyone tries to respond they are threatened with being thrown out. This is hardly conducive to a good atmosphere.

Few seasons ago I sat in Block 9 West Lower for an FA Cup game against Leeds. Worst mistake ever.

Throughout the game constant abuse from Leeds shouting over the walkway and leaning over the barriers, when I stood up to give some back the stewards sat me down and told me I was "inciting them and encouraging them", ended up being threatened with being thrown out if I didn't behave myself. Was like being at school.
A youth got taken down to the concourse for standing up and singing Oh when the Spurs with his hands above his head. Saw him with the police at the end of the game.
The police started filming the whole block row by row towards the end of the second half as loads of people were getting pissed off with the amount of shit coming our way from the cunts and the atmosphere was progressively getting worse.
To top it all off 2 old blokes a bit in front of us were Leeds fans, fully suited obviously on some sort of corporate.
I had a word with the steward about the "away fans" bit on the ticket, she just shrugged and said to ignore them.

Never again.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Few seasons ago I sat in Block 9 West Lower for an FA Cup game against Leeds. Worst mistake ever.

Throughout the game constant abuse from Leeds shouting over the walkway and leaning over the barriers, when I stood up to give some back the stewards sat me down and told me I was "inciting them and encouraging them", ended up being threatened with being thrown out if I didn't behave myself. Was like being at school.
A youth got taken down to the concourse for standing up and singing Oh when the Spurs with his hands above his head. Saw him with the police at the end of the game.
The police started filming the whole block row by row towards the end of the second half as loads of people were getting pissed off with the amount of shit coming our way from the cunts and the atmosphere was progressively getting worse.
To top it all off 2 old blokes a bit in front of us were Leeds fans, fully suited obviously on some sort of corporate.
I had a word with the steward about the "away fans" bit on the ticket, she just shrugged and said to ignore them.

Never again.

That's disgraceful but does not surprise me. It's similar to the discrepancy between media/police reactions to pyro from English and foreign supporters in European games.

I never get why away fans shout abuse at the West Stand, it's obvious it's the posh seats and other than a few isolated people like yourself at this game, they won't get any response. They need to turn to their right not their left. Mind you, the way the stewards are they won't get any response that way either now.

 

[Raiders]

sorry it had taken me half an hour to go through 1-9 and then number 10 was so long. I disagree that only champions should be in champions league and Financial fair play is a bit of a misnomer as it doesn't really help most teams but inversely the top ones.
In relation to tickets i was just confused why you had one percent of wage bill not other (more relevant) financial aspects. But yes I understand you meant just cheaper tickets was just being pedantic.
On the hooligan/banning order aspect. I agree that intimidating atmospheres can be good. But i feel the changes you ask for will not change atmosphere. Look perhaps banning orders are a slight restriction but they have done some good in my opinion. Can you really complain being arrested for singing a horrible song? Are you really standing up for freedom of expression or your team? On atmosphere, which we should stick to as things can get quite complicated, I cannot see this improving the atmosphere. In pubs and around the ground the atmosphere is great and far superior than inside. What really is needed is unreserved standing areas (which you say).
Essentially just what helps atmospheres not necessarily the right or wrongs of laws etc as this would take an essay length to disseminate.

 

[Norwegian_Yid]

Few seasons ago I sat in Block 9 West Lower for an FA Cup game against Leeds. Worst mistake ever.

Throughout the game constant abuse from Leeds shouting over the walkway and leaning over the barriers, when I stood up to give some back the stewards sat me down and told me I was "inciting them and encouraging them", ended up being threatened with being thrown out if I didn't behave myself. Was like being at school.
A youth got taken down to the concourse for standing up and singing Oh when the Spurs with his hands above his head. Saw him with the police at the end of the game.
The police started filming the whole block row by row towards the end of the second half as loads of people were getting pissed off with the amount of shit coming our way from the cunts and the atmosphere was progressively getting worse.
To top it all off 2 old blokes a bit in front of us were Leeds fans, fully suited obviously on some sort of corporate.
I had a word with the steward about the "away fans" bit on the ticket, she just shrugged and said to ignore them.

Never again.

I once got threatened to be ejected by a steward at Goodison for going nuts after a last minute winner. Apparently I was provoking the home fans. In reality, I didn't even look in their direction.