"Yid" Chanting Part 2 - new poll

[parklanephil]

I think kosherboy's point is that simpy because a person does not set out to be racist and determines in their head that the use of the word is acceptable, that doesn't mean that offense still cannot be caused to the ears it lands on. I think that's what a lot of people why forgetting here. If, potentially, a fifth of fans going to a Spurs match stand to be offended, and the person saying the word knows this, despite saying it without intent to be mailcious, does the argument really fly that they should not be offended?

IMHO Yes, because we all have a responsibility here to live in a world together and intent is the key thing.

My parents are God botherers, should I not say "Oh God" because it offends them? Or do my missus in the butt because they think it is filthy?
There are always things that people do that we may not do, things that happen and are potentially offensive to us. I believe that we all have a responsibility here.

Of course I need to take things in to account and thing about what I say or do around others, just as they have a responsibility to take in to account the intent and meaning of a situation.

Would I call someone a "Fucking Yid" ?- Never
Would I sing "Yid Army"- Of course I would.

But isn't this a case of saying "well, I have determined it's ok so live with it." Even if we don't agree wiith their view on an issue, if there is a sizeable amount who are offended by it, isn't it worth still showing them courtesy and respect?

Of course, as long as I get the same respect back

 

[AlMacca_]

What happens if you find someone offensive for finding you offensive?

But then they might be offended for you finding them being offended at you offensive.

 

[HyNdZee]

What happens if you find someone offensive for finding you offensive?

But then they might be offended for you finding them being offended at you offensive.

This is getting quite extensive.

 

[S.L.R]

What happens if you find someone offensive for finding you offensive?

I don't have a blanket answer to that, but applying it to the subjective situation I was thinking about, then you'd be a cunt.

 

[AlMacca_]

What happens if you find someone offensive for finding you offensive?

But then they might be offended for you finding them being offended at you offensive.

This is getting quite extensive.

Can't leave any stones unturned on this thread

 

[Admin]

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/blog/a ... ebate.html

 

[yiddo2786]

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/blog/articles/the-y-debate.html

Fantastic read.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I thought the article was quite fair and balanced because, at the end of the day, the author recognises that members of the community maybe still be offended by it, but that, at the same time, the majoirty of Spurs fans don't set out to be intentionally racist. He also doesn't actually draw a personal conclusion either way as to whether or not it's use should continue, which I think is teh correct thing. I don't think it's good for TFC to promote a viewpoint on this issue, but rather leave it for others to make their own minds up on.

 

[Admin]

Are you saying we shouldn't have published the article? I don't think you are but I'm just checking.

 

[Éperons]

Good way of reading it, Smoked Salmon.

The reference to "Zhid", or "жид" (Zhyd) sounded a bit off to me, though. It's very much (these days) an offensive slur, worse even than in the way that "Jew" can be used as a slur in English. Contemporary Russian uses "еврей" (yev-RAY) as its neutral term. As such, the term in the article is a slur on the face of it, whereas "Jude" can be used neutrally.

If you like, go to multitran.ru, type in first "Jew," note what word is not given, and then type in the not given word and see what comparable English words it gives.

(the word was used neutrally in history, but not any more)

[edit]Made the post a bit less wishy-washy.[/edit]

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Are you saying we shouldn't have published the article? I don't think you are but I'm just checking.

I'm not quite sure how you could've established that sort of remark from my post. :kaboul:

 

[yiddo2786]

Are you saying we shouldn't have published the article? I don't think you are but I'm just checking.

I'm not quite sure how you could've established that sort of remark from my post. :kaboul:

You're saying Case is a prick?

 

[Admin]

You said "I don't think it's good for TFC to promote a viewpoint on this issue"

Publishing articles on the front page of the site is 'promoting a viewpoint on an issue'. Isn't it? We're putting someone's views out there for people to see.

Doesn't matter because that's not what you meant. I assume you mean you don't think we should push our own views as if they're the right ones? I agree with that.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

You said "I don't think it's good for TFC to promote a viewpoint on this issue"

Publishing articles on the front page of the site is 'promoting a viewpoint on an issue'. Isn't it? We're putting someone's views out there for people to see.

Doesn't matter because that's not what you meant. I assume you mean you don't think we should push our own views as if they're the right ones? I agree with that.

Um, I also said.....

He also doesn't actually draw a personal conclusion either way as to whether or not it's use should continue, which I think is teh correct thing.

But yes, these are obvious sensitive issues so it's always a fine line.

 

[MKYid]

Would it be too much to ask for people to stop taking offence at things?

I know this sounds flippant, and to a degree it is, but if people didn't take offence they would lead happier lives. Those that actively seek to offend, wouldn't be able to.

People have more chance to change their sensibilities than they do the motives of others.

I was offended once. I recovered without therapy or surgery...I didn't even need to lie down for a bit. The 'offence' I took was merely a series of thoughts that went through my mind culminating in me doing exactly what I was doing prior to the event, after the event.

I think people need to ask themselves, not why are they offended, but what being offended actually means. To me, being offended means no more than being excited, shocked, amazed or sad. It's a feeling that lasts no more than 5 minutes of what can be a very long lifetime.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Would it be too much to ask for people to stop taking offence at things?

I know this sounds flippant, and to a degree it is, but if people didn't take offence they would lead happier lives. Those that actively seek to offend, wouldn't be able to.

People have more chance to change their sensibilities than they do the motives of others.

I was offended once. I recovered without therapy or surgery...I didn't even need to lie down for a bit. The 'offence' I took was merely a series of thoughts that went through my mind culminating in me doing exactly what I was doing prior to the event, after the event.

I think people need to ask themselves, not why are they offended, but what being offended actually means. To me, being offended means no more than being excited, shocked, amazed or sad. It's a feeling that lasts no more than 5 minutes of what can be a very long lifetime.

So you're saying it's ok if I start calling asians Pakis and blacks Niggers then? Ya know, cos its about time they stopped taking offence and all.

 

[rwb2000]

I dunno if someone mentioned this already, but the word Gentleman originates from Gentile.

Seems to me that a word can have origins in racism or sectarianism and yet evolve to a more sanitised meaning such that the original racist connotation becomes meaningless. Are jews banned from using the Gents in the modern world? Interpreting the word literally in theory might mean that, yet of course no one pays any heed to it because it's origins are long-forgotten.

I think the y word in the context of Tottenham has become nothing more than that - a label for Spurs fans, and has become de-sanitised in the process. It's akin to gays claiming the word 'gay', and blacks with the word 'nigger'. The main difference being that - well, we are mostly (but not exclusively) white male gentiles from Essex...

Chelsea fans hissing - well that's truly racist, they are tacitly supporting the Third Reich by giving it legitimacy, even if it's tongue-in-cheek. I feel the same about the Spurs fans who sang the elephant song for Adebayor when at Woolwich, I never condoned that or the Sol song, and would never sing something thats fundamentally racist, in the sense that those that sing it wouldn't sing that to a white player, even an African white player.

By the way I think we have given Sol too much grief over the years for his betrayal, and it's time to let it lie, but that's another thread.

I was always uncomfortable with the Y word when I first started following Spurs, but I am now of the opinion that we have sanitised it, and it's kinda not really that important these days.

But if we want to shift people's implicit racist mentality - racism that's not overt but still simmers underneath like my middle class mum who still calls blacks "coloured people", and also not give credence to the Chelsea scumbags who hiss, it might be time to think about a new nickname.

In short I haven't voted, cos I am in two minds about this

Something to think on next time you are staggering towards the Gents in the Bell and Hare - technically you shouldn't be allowed in there if you're a yid

 

[Éperons]

I dunno if someone mentioned this already, but the word Gentleman originates from Gentile.

That's not quite right.

Both words ("gentle" and "Gentile") come, ultimately, from the Latin "gens", for people or race.

But "gentle" has meant "well-born, of excellent distinction" since the 13th century in English ("Noble men & gentile ne beoreð nane packes" from the Ancrene Riwle). So it's not the case that a bunch of non-Jewish people, sick of (English) Jews' calling them "Gentiles," took the slur on as a badge of honour and started calling themselves that in a bit of identity politics jujitsu.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I dunno if someone mentioned this already, but the word Gentleman originates from Gentile.

Seems to me that a word can have origins in racism or sectarianism and yet evolve to a more sanitised meaning such that the original racist connotation becomes meaningless. Are jews banned from using the Gents in the modern world? Interpreting the word literally in theory might mean that, yet of course no one pays any heed to it because it's origins are long-forgotten.

I think the y word in the context of Tottenham has become nothing more than that - a label for Spurs fans, and has become de-sanitised in the process. It's akin to gays claiming the word 'gay', and blacks with the word 'n*gger'. The main difference being that - well, we are mostly (but not exclusively) white male gentiles from Essex...

Chelsea fans hissing - well that's truly racist, they are tacitly supporting the Third Reich by giving it legitimacy, even if it's tongue-in-cheek. I feel the same about the Spurs fans who sang the elephant song for Adebayor when at Woolwich, I never condoned that or the Sol song, and would never sing something thats fundamentally racist, in the sense that those that sing it wouldn't sing that to a white player, even an African white player.

By the way I think we have given Sol too much grief over the years for his betrayal, and it's time to let it lie, but that's another thread.

I was always uncomfortable with the Y word when I first started following Spurs, but I am now of the opinion that we have sanitised it, and it's kinda not really that important these days.

But if we want to shift people's implicit racist mentality - racism that's not overt but still simmers underneath like my middle class mum who still calls blacks "coloured people", and also not give credence to the Chelsea scumbags who hiss, it might be time to think about a new nickname.

In short I haven't voted, cos I am in two minds about this

Something to think on next time you are staggering towards the Gents in the Bell and Hare - technically you shouldn't be allowed in there if you're a yid

An interesting post. Although, for the sake accuracy, Gentleman is the modern day equivilant of the latin word gentilis. It has nothing to do with the word gentile. Rather that gentile originally evolved from gentilis as well, and that historically in the Roman Empire gentilis was only sometimes used to refer to people who were not Israelites since "gens" in in latin means race or group of people. Otherwise it referred to a person of good standing and gentleman evoled from gentilis in this context, not from gentile, which is the Yiddish adaption of gentilis.

In other words, gentleman and gentile are two completely seperate words.

As for the rest of what you say, I have no problem with the desanitisation of the word in principle. But I am nonetheless aware that the majority of this apparent desanitisation has been carried out by non-Jews, while a percentage of the Jewish population still finds the word offensive today. Therefore has the sting yet been taken out of thr word? This is essentially akin to a load of white boys grouping together to call themselves niggers because they claim they are desantising the word and to hell with any members of the black community who have a problem with it. To my mind, while a sizeable grouping of a particular community, even if it's a minority, finds it offensive then the word has not been sufficiently desensitised. I have no doubt that the majority of fans who chant it are not racista nd do not intend to be. But I do think there is a lot of excuse making going on in an attempt to excuse the fact that the use of the word may nontheless be unwittingly causing a sizeable number of Jewish people offense. It is a difficult on, but I still not convinced that he word has yet been rendered harmless.

Oh, and I am not a bloody Essex boy!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Éperons]

gentile, which is the Yiddish adaption of gentilis.

The OED doesn't include any Yiddish detours in "gentilis" (in the sense of "Gentile")'s trip from the Vulgate to modern English. From 1380:

He [Petre] wolde not dele wiþ Gentiles for tendirnnesse of þe Jewis