Should AVB go if we miss top 4?

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I can understand fans questioning what is happening, but are we forgetting that even with the upheaval that has taken place in the summer, that even with this new squad of players we're still at least within touching distance of the top. We are three points away from the Woolwich. We aren't playing amazingly but we have still ground out some results whilst these players are still finding their feet. I was disappointed as anyone that we lost to the Spammers in the manner that we did. However Football isn't a predictable game and Woolwich, Manure, Dippers, Shitty and Chavs will all have off days as well.

Ramos had 2 points from 8 games, whereas we have 13 from 7 already. I don't think AVB should go if we don't make the top 4. He clearly is a better coach than the last four that we have had.

I don't disagree about better coach, because it's obvious that he's good at setting down the groundwork for a system- but as above I do think you have to draw a distinction between coaching and management (see Joey Barton's comments on the weekend about Fergie being one of the greatest all-time managers, but unable to even set cones out properly in training).

For my money, in an ideal world we'd have him completely in control of everything about the club during the week as First team Coach- individual training routines, tactical sessions, match prep. Then on game day we've have a Harry type come in to do the 'arm round the shoulder' routine and bring a bit of 'fucking run around a bit' flexibility if things don't go to plan.
 
This is merely one of many reasons why I haven't ever held and will never hold any sort of position of responsibility at a football club outside of the odd bit of Sunday League coaching, though
 
I don't disagree about better coach, because it's obvious that he's good at setting down the groundwork for a system- but as above I do think you have to draw a distinction between coaching and management (see Joey Barton's comments on the weekend about Fergie being one of the greatest all-time managers, but unable to even set cones out properly in training).

For my money, in an ideal world we'd have him completely in control of everything about the club during the week as First team Coach- individual training routines, tactical sessions, match prep. Then on game day we've have a Harry type come in to do the 'arm round the shoulder' routine and bring a bit of 'fucking run around a bit' flexibility if things don't go to plan.

Sadly I don't think that type of manager exists anymore in the environs of modern football. I doubt we will see the likes of Ferguson again. Wenger to an extent still has his fingers in all the pies. However I think with the coaching, the psychology, the business dealings it's just too much for one person to take on. All the players have come out about how they enjoy working with AVB and I sense they understand his philosophy and buy into it. Younger players are given the chance to shine and given equal opportunity to cement their places in the team. Would Townsend and Rose been given as much playing time and confidence previously? They'd have got the odd game in cup matches but would they be relied upon in the big Premier League matches?
 
Sadly I don't think that type of manager exists anymore in the environs of modern football. I doubt we will see the likes of Ferguson again. Wenger to an extent still has his fingers in all the pies. However I think with the coaching, the psychology, the business dealings it's just too much for one person to take on. All the players have come out about how they enjoy working with AVB and I sense they understand his philosophy and buy into it. Younger players are given the chance to shine and given equal opportunity to cement their places in the team. Would Townsend and Rose been given as much playing time and confidence previously? They'd have got the odd game in cup matches but would they be relied upon in the big Premier League matches?

Yes, I can't deny AVB has done a great job with some of of our youngsters and I highly doubt Andros' breakout season (as this is looking to be) would have occurred in the way it has without the opportunities AVB has given him, despite the probable pressure on him to utilize Lamela.

That said I am still a little sore that he didn't use Tommy Carroll a little more at the end of last season when we were hurting for creativity in midfield, and that he's allowed him to go to QPR this season. He probably would have copped some flak for putting any serious responsibility on his shoulders, but then he did a bit with Andros at the start of this season but persevered and look where we are now.
 
looks like you've not been reading the thread :adelol:
No I know this was started by a gooner troll, but still I'm generally seeing a funeral like atmosphere around this place lately.
But then again, I'm starting to think maybe most people here are actually gooner trolls. :avbnaa:
 
It wasn't the fact the WHU result was unacceptable for me, it was the total lack of an attempt to get out of jail that got me frustrated, and despite him having a poor game, taking the one inventive (MF) player off seemed an odd choice.
I don't see any sense in considering dumping AVB, he has proved that he has the ability to make us a good team already, where we finish the season and how the team conducts itself throughout will determine whether the original question gets resurrected. Unless its a woeful season, he should still be allowed to stay and try to finish what he's started.
 
Yes, I can't deny AVB has done a great job with some of of our youngsters and I highly doubt Andros' breakout season (as this is looking to be) would have occurred in the way it has without the opportunities AVB has given him, despite the probable pressure on him to utilize Lamela.

That said I am still a little sore that he didn't use Tommy Carroll a little more at the end of last season when we were hurting for creativity in midfield, and that he's allowed him to go to QPR this season. He probably would have copped some flak for putting any serious responsibility on his shoulders, but then he did a bit with Andros at the start of this season but persevered and look where we are now.

We were at the business end of the season and Bale was digging us out of holes with his late to last minute screamers. Would playing Carroll have been a risk? He'd more than likely been over run in midfield by bigger more experienced players. Fine if it had been earlier in the season, however when we were really in there playing for points you really need to have your best players. At least with Parker and his 360 turns we had an experienced head in there holding it together albeit without the creativity.
 
I don't think AVB should go if we don't make the top 4. He clearly is a better coach than the last four that we have had.

I'm not sure we can say that yet. For me, he's yet to show that he can adapt his style for the very different approaches used by certain second tier PL teams. He's rigidly continental, which works against better footballing sides, but the set-up, style and formation he created for the WH game was a total mess.
 
So my question is when do the excuses stop.

What excuses? It's simply a fact that our club isn't financially ahead of at least 4 teams and hasn't been for a while. Our "push for the next level" came at the same time as Man City, and we didn't back Jol, Ramos, or Arry with the sufficient funds so if anything it is harder now. I don't feel that our rivals for 4th would have needed to sell Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, or Bale. Perhaps the scum would have, but then they have a manager and a team that is used to finishing in the top 4. We keep changing our manager every 2 years, and changed half of our team this year. I don't think Arry's main priority was on beating the scum down the road, and I feel AVB under-estimated them last season as well. But that is partly because they haven't experienced what we have in the last 5-10 years and they know this won't be their club for the next 5-10 years anyway.

In my opinion there is no point in bringing in a manager for 2 years.
 
And the OP gets sin binned?

If we are not careful.. we will kill a little bit of debate.. and in a small way kill a bit of the board
 
And the OP gets sin binned?

If we are not careful.. we will kill a little bit of debate.. and in a small way kill a bit of the board
How about reading the thread properly, he was a gooner and has been banned (for being a cunt).

halfway down page 2
 
What excuses? It's simply a fact that our club isn't financially ahead of at least 4 teams and hasn't been for a while. Our "push for the next level" came at the same time as Man City, and we didn't back Jol, Ramos, or Arry with the sufficient funds so if anything it is harder now. I don't feel that our rivals for 4th would have needed to sell Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, or Bale. Perhaps the scum would have, but then they have a manager and a team that is used to finishing in the top 4. We keep changing our manager every 2 years, and changed half of our team this year. I don't think Arry's main priority was on beating the scum down the road, and I feel AVB under-estimated them last season as well. But that is partly because they haven't experienced what we have in the last 5-10 years and they know this won't be their club for the next 5-10 years anyway.

In my opinion there is no point in bringing in a manager for 2 years.

I think relative financial clout became irrelevant over the summer when we got an £100m windfall from player sales which we reinvested straight up.
 
Fair enough- at the end of the day, you're probably taking a far more rational and considered viewpoint than me. I can openly admit that I was never a huge advocate of AVB when we were looking for a Harry replacement, and to this day I still can't quite get past seeing him as one of Europe's greatest technical coaches, but not yet a top-shelf on-pitch manager. Inevitably that has probably clouded my perspective on what this team has achieved under him so far.

I can't deny that the results last season were largely excellent and AVB deserves credit for keeping the ship steady after the summer of 2011, but on the other hand I really found it hard to muster much enthusiasm watching us play over the same period, with us feeling like we were just about scraping through every game, and only outplaying maybe one or two teams all season. Dominating, but not truly threatening team after team. It worries me that I feel exactly the same this season with Christian Eriksen, Erik Lamela, Etienne Capoue, Roberto Soldado and Paulinho now in the side.

I am saddened about how many disagreements I've had with people I disrespect over this issue, but equally I really can't force myself to feel any other way. 15 months in I still feel like AVB is the one everyone wants to become a Spurs legend- the exciting, young coach who builds a legacy at the club- but I just don't see the green shoots yet that suggest this will become a reality.

Week to week it's always the same story- "OK, so we didn't look great today, but the win will give the squad some confidence and the team starts to gel we'll be unstoppable". But then we go and get absolutely turned over 3-0 by West Ham at home. One result, I know, but it's hard to deny that it punctures this 'jam tomorrow' mentality everyone seems to have with AVB right now.

End of the day, I just want the same thing everyone else does- for this club to achieve stable success. I don't think we all have to agree on everything about our manager to share that hope.

This is a really interesting post, and has got me thinking. I think I agree to an extent.

Not with the first bit, because I was a huge advocate of appointing AVB, but with some of the rest. I think he was dealt a bad hand in his first season with King/Modric/VdV leaving, but he was lucky to have Bale (and his use of him was phenomenal).

My concerns are:

- the lack of bravery with substitutions (irritating because when he *does* make brave decisions, they usually work well).
- some weird tactical decisions - bringing on a poacher when you're struggling to create, for example. In those situations, "bring on Defoe" is almost always never the right answer.
- the lack of a 'passer' as one of the '2' in our 4-2-3-1 - to me it seems so obvious that one of the reasons we struggle to break teams down and maintain a quick tempo is that we let the opposition regain shape too quickly as we don't move the ball quickly enough to our '3'. Dembele and Paulinho between them just do not have the direct passing ability that we need from at least one of the players in that role IMO.
- the lack of time for inexperienced youngsters, beyond the occasional game for Carroll/Kane/Fryers. At least have a couple on the bench for the Europa League to bring on when we're winning games easily - I'm meaning Veljkovic/Bentaleb, etc. Just including them in squads/giving them 10/15 mins exposure here or there could work wonders. Not using and then selling Luongo baffled me too.
- the fact that he's already talking about his next move. He doesn't stay at clubs long, so as much as we might see AVB's Spurs as a long-term project, he almost certainly doesn't. OK, that's a slight assumption, but it's probably true.

On the whole I really like AVB and I *really* like AVB/Baldini (the work we did in the summer was mostly excellent), but I definitely think he needs to deliver at least a cup this season to deserve praise.

Not that I'd suggest sacking him anytime soon, that'd be totally counter-productive.
 
This is a really interesting post, and has got me thinking. I think I agree to an extent.

Not with the first bit, because I was a huge advocate of appointing AVB, but with some of the rest. I think he was dealt a bad hand in his first season with King/Modric/VdV leaving, but he was lucky to have Bale (and his use of him was phenomenal).

My concerns are:

- the lack of bravery with substitutions (irritating because when he *does* make brave decisions, they usually work well).
- some weird tactical decisions - bringing on a poacher when you're struggling to create, for example. In those situations, "bring on Defoe" is almost always never the right answer.
- the lack of a 'passer' as one of the '2' in our 4-2-3-1 - to me it seems so obvious that one of the reasons we struggle to break teams down and maintain a quick tempo is that we let the opposition regain shape too quickly as we don't move the ball quickly enough to our '3'. Dembele and Paulinho between them just do not have the direct passing ability that we need from at least one of the players in that role IMO.
- the lack of time for inexperienced youngsters, beyond the occasional game for Carroll/Kane/Fryers. At least have a couple on the bench for the Europa League to bring on when we're winning games easily - I'm meaning Veljkovic/Bentaleb, etc. Just including them in squads/giving them 10/15 mins exposure here or there could work wonders. Not using and then selling Luongo baffled me too.
- the fact that he's already talking about his next move. He doesn't stay at clubs long, so as much as we might see AVB's Spurs as a long-term project, he almost certainly doesn't. OK, that's a slight assumption, but it's probably true.

On the whole I really like AVB and I *really* like AVB/Baldini (the work we did in the summer was mostly excellent), but I definitely think he needs to deliver at least a cup this season to deserve praise.

Not that I'd suggest sacking him anytime soon, that'd be totally counter-productive.

Totally agree with all of this. My main beef with AVB, which was my key concern when he first joined us and hasn't been allayed since, is that he runs his sides very much like a coach who's just coming to terms with what it means to manage a side. That is to say, he has a template in his mind that he wants to see enacted on the pitch, and when it goes wrong, it's more a problem with the players not manifesting the vision properly, rather than the circumstances of the match itself. This was acutely clear in our last two games, where both times a switch at half-time or earlier than the 65th minute were situationally required- in the Chelsea game, because of the resurgence of our opponents just before the break (I would've liked to have seen more of a 'scrapper' like Holtby thrown in to the mix), and against West Ham, because Big Sam's 4-6-0 had clearly thrown the side and needed reacting to. Both times, AVB failed to make the changes required, and both times the result was sub-optimal. Or, in the case of the last game, absolutely dire.

I've said it many times here, so at the risk of repeating myself- AVB, for me, thinks like a coach. He seems to like discipline, drilling, perseverance with a particular style. These are all fantastic attributes for a first team coach who runs the training, briefs the players, works out our tactical approach. But at the helm of the side, it's been a recipe for sluggish, disjointed performances. Because matches aren't static and predictable- opponents, like we saw at the Lane two Sundays ago, will do all they can to thwart you once they figure out that you're not going to experiment with some cavalier changes. AVB throwing Paulinho and Dembele into the midfield together all season has started to look very much like pounding up against a brick wall, with opponents holding a rigid shape knowing they won't be prised apart by clever passes from deep. It's also seemingly meant that players who don't fall in line with his vision, or just straight-up don't show him the kind of deference he wants, get pushed to the margins despite their continued usefulness. It's terrible man-management, and it's exactly the kind of behaviour (albeit driven by different motives) that we used to slate Redknapp for.

On the rare occasions he does make a big switch in a tactical sense, they feel ill-considered and forced, like he's just bowing to the pressure of having to do something rather than actually making an organic decision- cf. Benny on the left in a game last season, one of the worst tactical calls I've seen a Spurs manager make for some time. It's issues like this that make me wish a Harry type would come in and wrestle the reins off of AVB and shake things up properly, in a way that inspires the squad.

My tl;dr on that- as above. AVB is still a top-quality technical coach, not yet a top-5 standard manager. For me.
 
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No I know this was started by a gooner troll, but still I'm generally seeing a funeral like atmosphere around this place lately.
But then again, I'm starting to think maybe most people here are actually gooner trolls. :avbnaa:

This is exactly what I was talking about. Mocking dismissal of people's concerns, without any attempt to address the actual points that are being raised. You don't unquestioningly support AVB, so you must be a Gooner.

Bit childish.
 
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