Dele

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Guido said:
Right, so all very subjective, how do you go about supporting that? I ask this because you are focusing on stylistic preference, not specifically what it is that they are performing. Whilst I agree to aspects of this, it only really works if people agree with the identified player and all those that you list I agree are grafters BTW.

So, it is possible to see that their sprinting stats, support the stylistic things you like. Moura's sprints stats are in the top percentile in the league right now as to is Vardy (however Vardy's are specific in that his sprints are made up of entirely running behind, not in pressing, I don't think that should matter. Lamela isn't listed because probably due to injury and lack of mins, so would have to work his out is per game average and I can't be arsed but my gut feel would have me believe that his sprints will be high enough as his pressing is relentless.

The one player that doesn't feature in at the top end of the sprinting stats (well at least the past 4yrs) is Milner. So how would I go about support Milner's grafting qualities other than subjectively saying he gets stuck in. I'd first probably have to work on his averages bassed on mins per game as he does get subbed a fair bit (again can't be arsed to do this but would be worth a shout). He has however been consistently in the top 10% for total distance covered. As I mentioned earlier this isn't the greatest measure for a 'grafter" as someone can plod those KM's but given what we all see it might be an easy one to give the thumbs up to would it not?

You see, in the main, the stats would support what you subjectively believe and if this was Lucas's thread and I had posted Lucas's sprinting stats you might have hit the like of agree because it supported what you see.

This isn't a case of making stats fit what you want, it supports the players that you list as grafters. It's using the stats that are currently used in part to measure intensity (there are other metrics namely "passes per defensive action" PPDA which measure the effectiveness of the team's intensity but they focus on the result of the intensity e.g the other team losing the ball etc) which surely you can see is at the very essence of grafting ergo an intense team is a team that grafts.
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I support it by watching the players play football.
If Henderson is grafting, I don’t run to a pie chart to see how many sprints he made before saying “fuck me he works hard”
 
sammyspurs said:
And the stats said last season that Eriksen is better than DeBruyne

That’s why it’s better to use them with perspective rather than as an absolute truth
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Did it???

Show me the stats that said that?


EDIT: 2 goals and 2 assist due to a long term injury. So yes it shows last season Eriksen performed better than him...not that he's better overall.
 
kingdawson said:
Did it???

Show me the stats that said that?
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6 goals and 11 assists
Eriksen got 10 goals and 12 assists

I’m not looking at games played, because I’ve chosen to only use the goals and assists and therefore Eriksen is much better than DeBruyne and the stats prove it and back me up.
If you disagree then you are disagreeing with FACTS.

See how it can work out sometimes
 
sammyspurs said:
6 goals and 11 assists
Eriksen got 10 goals and 12 assists

I’m not looking at games played, because I’ve chosen to only use the goals and assists and therefore Eriksen is much better than DeBruyne and the stats prove it and back me up.
If you disagree then you are disagreeing with FACTS.

See how it can work out sometimes
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No you're point is actually incorrect.

It shows that he has performed better and been more productive THAT SEASON and not that he's a better player overall.


Alli has a better goals to game ratio than De bryne THIS SEASON but i didnt once claim he's a better player.
 
kingdawson said:
No you're point is actually incorrect.

It shows that he has performed better and been more productive THAT SEASON and not that he's a better player overall.


Alli has a better goals to game ratio than De bryne THIS SEASON but i didnt once claim he's a better player.
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No because now you want to add perspective all of a sudden
 
sammyspurs said:
No because now you want to add perspective all of a sudden
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Perspective ??? What on earth are you on about. Of course when you compare stats of players for the season you can ascertain who is doing better that season and NOT who is the overall better player.

Sammy sometimes just simply learn to accept and agree without having a dig or disagreeing for the hell of it.
 
sammyspurs said:
I support it by watching the players play football.
If Henderson is grafting, I don’t run to a pie chart to see how many sprints he made before saying “fuck me he works hard”
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Nor do I!!!

When or if there is a disagreement on a player then to advance that debate it's good if you can support what it is you can see when watching it. I can support the opinion that Lucas & Vardy are grafters by using specific statistical analysis. If I could be bothered my gut instinct tells me I could find the same analysis to support Lamela if I worked out his numbers on a game average. I can make a strong case for but not a convincing one for Milner too. Had this debate been about these players as grafters you and I would be in agreement, not only by what we saw but by the specific statistical analysis that backs it up.

I made a claim that Dele was a grafter. No different to your claim that Milner, Lucas, Lamela were grafters. My claim was challenged, so rather than respond like the pantomime halfwits and say "Oh yes he is", only for the other to respond "oh now his not" the next step would be to back up or support your opinion with some facts.

What do you prefer?
a) "Oh yes/no he is"
b) Debate the opinion with objectivity
 
kingdawson said:
Perspective ??? What on earth are you on about. Of course when you compare stats of players for the season you can ascertain who is doing better that season and NOT who is the overall better player.

Sammy sometimes just simply learn to accept and agree without having a dig or disagreeing for the hell of it.
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You aren’t using perspective when it comes to Dele though.
You are bombarding everyone with stats and quips about no other AM has more of this that and the other.
You are ignoring the perspective that an assist is just a pass, or you can score and have a shit game, which Dele does often.

Its the Eriksen debate all over again.
People keep asking why we keep buying attacking mids.

Guess.
 
sammyspurs said:
You aren’t using perspective when it comes to Dele though.
You are bombarding everyone with stats and quips about no other AM has more of this that and the other.
You are ignoring the perspective that an assist is just a pass, or you can score and have a shit game, which Dele does often.

Its the Eriksen debate all over again.
People keep asking why we keep buying attacking mids.

Guess.
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"An assist is just a pass" yes and a goal is just a shot.

The stats that i'm "bombarding" everyone with are his goals and assist stats. Not some random stat about how much he runs or what month he usually scores his goals. It at least proves that he is a productive player.

My opinion is that he is excellent when played as a 'runner' that finds space and makes those dangerous runs into the opposition box. When he's played in a deeper position where he is expected to create he doesn't play as well.
 
kingdawson said:
"An assist is just a pass" yes and a goal is just a shot.

The stats that i'm "bombarding" everyone with are his goals and assist stats. Not some random stat about how much he runs or what month he usually scores his goals. It at least proves that he is a productive player.

My opinion is that he is excellent when played as a 'runner' that finds space and makes those dangerous runs into the opposition box. When he's played in a deeper position where he is expected to create he doesn't play as well.
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A goal is a goal.
An assist could be a 1 meter tap to someone who puts it in the top corner from 25yrds.

The record books don’t distinguish between masterful through ball and simply being the last person to touch the ball before the goal scorer though.

As I said, perspective is king.
 
sammyspurs said:
A goal is a goal.
An assist could be a 1 meter tap to someone who puts it in the top corner from 25yrds.

The record books don’t distinguish between masterful through ball and simply being the last person to touch the ball before the goal scorer though.

As I said, perspective is king.
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Well its good you think so highly of a goal as he has the best goal to game ratio of any attacking mid this season. His assists are not that high though.
 
kingdawson said:
Yes because scoring goals doesn't do that.
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Playing well more often would help the team more often.
Is that weird for you?

Dele may well pop up with a goal that helps us draw with Watford or beat Norwich, but not fucking up 5 counter attacks per match would make these games a bit easier for us.

You know, helping the team instead of blaming them for his mistakes.
 
sammyspurs said:
And as I also said, as important as goals are, you can still play utter shit and score.
Dele has been doing that regularly since 2017
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You are right a player can indeed score and play shit but when that player manages 21 goals and 16 assists in 78 premier league games since 2017...which is broken down to

2017-2018 = 9 goals and 10 assists in 36
games

2018 - 2019 = 5 goals and 3 assists in 25 games

2019 - 2020 = 7 goals and 3 assitss in 17 games


Then the likelyhood that the player has been "shit" for that period despite the decent return in the THREE seasons becomes highly unlikely at best. The likely conclusion is that the person making the claim is exaggerating for whatever reason.
 
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sammyspurs said:
Playing well more often would help the team more often.
Is that weird for you?

Dele may well pop up with a goal that helps us draw with Watford or beat Norwich, but not fucking up 5 counter attacks per match would make these games a bit easier for us.

You know, helping the team instead of blaming them for his mistakes.
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What is your definition of playing well?
 
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