Are Hooliganism and Atmosphere Linked?

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Greaves357_bestever said:
I have to disagree profoundly with the idea that hooliganism in the 80s was an 'anarchist' related movement. It was people who wanted a ruck, it was people who who wanted to defend their 'manor' it was many thing it wasn't an anarchist movement. In fact you'd have got your head kicked in if you called any of the hooligans 'an anarchist' :)

of course you could twist the definition of anarchist sufficiently to embrace the hooligans, but it really wasn't anything to do with it.
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Thats my fault for being 33! I had just enough fringe information but just wasn't "There"

Anarchist probably is not the correct term, I was just making the point that it was just another example of the problems and mindset that was in the country at the time, you have to say there is some correlation there.
 
Mensa said:
Thats my fault for being 33! I had just enough fringe information but just wasn't "There"

Anarchist probably is not the correct term, I was just making the point that it was just another example of the problems and mindset that was in the country at the time, you have to say there is some correlation there.
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I agree with that Mensa. Hooligans were very often, indeed almost by definition, are anti-authority. But it wasn't like they were left wing protestors, which 'anarchists' tends to conjure up. Probably they were more right wing than left wing overall. The National Front was probably more popular with them than the Militant Tendency or other Socialist groups. But politics were rarely discussed, unless of course they were on a TV documentary :)
 
Greaves357_bestever said:
I agree with that Mensa. Hooligans were very often, indeed almost by definition, are anti-authority. But it wasn't like they were left wing protestors, which 'anarchists' tends to conjure up. Probably they were more right wing than left wing overall. The National Front was probably more popular with them than the Militant Tendency or other Socialist groups. But politics were rarely discussed, unless of course they were on a TV documentary :)
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You are right I see the clear difference between two now, I am just pleased in this two weeks of misery during the international break - I have learned something at least!! 2 more days!!
 
Greaves357_bestever said:
There is a lot of truth in what you say Oz, which is one reason why I don't feel bad about not going anymore. I'm not letting the club down, it's the people who have turned the Lane into a plastic replica homage to capitalism that have done that.

They should skip 'Star Wars' and play 'Money makes the world go round' when the teams trot out at the Lane these days.

Football used to be for the working man. Not that it was a political statement of any large intent, many would be Tories, Liberals, whoever as well as Labour and Socialist, etc. What they had in common was football, it transcended politics.
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greavesy, i think your actions speak louder than words....
holliganism = you still atended WHL
corporate capitalism = dont attend WHL
#levygivemebackmyspurs
 
n17troops said:
@ Greaves357_bestever Greaves357_bestever true where are we going threads on dating web sites people calling you dude corporate support or people who may as well piss of to woolwich give us back our spurs
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Cheers N17 :) So much is indeed wrong with modern football, but at least in 1882 there is a movement trying to do something about it. Some of the 'old school' and indeed 'new school' might not rate it, that's up to them.

And just to make myself clear, of course I knew hooligans etc in the 70s and 80s, we travelled on the same trains, stood on the same terraces, but I was never a 'hard man/fighter', whatever. Sometimes I was grateful for those people because they often were the only ones at some grounds between you and a good hiding. But me I was a (mainly failed) lover not a fighter. I'm absolutely useless at it :)
 
@ Greaves357_bestever Greaves357_bestever looking up from the bottom of the north bank watching a woolwich twat waving the sleeve of my new sergio going dizzy with the old bill round my throat not the best plan we ever had we raised the flag when the docter said fuck all could be donefor my hooter wish i had joined the love train
 
I went to my first game in 1969, went when I could find someone to take me up for the next ten years, started going very regularly 1980, season ticket 1982 and went to away games from 1981 with the Supporters Club. Felt reasonably safe most of the time - don't know if it was because I was a girl I didn't get involved in any trouble. But I did witness some horrible incidents - I was at Hillsborough for the 1981 semi final v. Wolves, our end was overcrowded and it was no surprise that the Hillsborough disaster happened as it did years later. Got bombarded by coins and bricks at Anfield, saw someone get their knuckles slashed by razor blades at Newcastle, a police horse getting stabbed at Stamford Bridge - I never want to go back to those days.
I don't think being passionate and showing it by creating a positive atmosphere has anything to do with wanting to bury a hammer into someone's head. I do feel that the modern set up of less space at grounds for 'ordinary Joes and Josephines' has more of an impact on that. Its in everybody's interest to make going to football an unforgettable experience - and unforgettable for the right reasons.
 
ultras dont always mean hooligans rangers blue order check out utube rangers 3 celtic 2 three sides singing penny arcade blue sea of ibrox also view green bridgade young capo thats the atmosphere 1882 should strive for with you all the way
 
Hi N17, trouble with me was I kept missing the love train. It always seemed to depart about two minutes before I got on the platform :)

Sorry to hear about the North Bank incident and its aftermath. I definitely wasn't one for invading other ends. Mind you I had the great fortune to be stood in the North Bank when it was packed with Spurs when we beat Wolves in the replay of the semi-final that Mrs P was talking about in a previous post. Absolutely awesome atmosphere that night, 40,000+ Spurs in Highbury, Hoddle at his peak, luvvly jubbly :thumbup::thumbup:
 
I think whether people like to admit it or not, there is less of a clear cut distinction between "hooligans" and peaceful fans than is often made out, particularly by the media. They like to caricature the "hooligan" as being someone who doesn't care about the team itself, which is mostly a complete load of bollocks. I'm sure there was (and perhaps still is the odd person) people who went purely for the violence but they were a minority and not a majority of our so-called hooligan support. Even nowadays there are a lot of people at Spurs who don't go looking for trouble but would fight if called upon, which of course rarely happens, at least domestically. IMO there's not a clear cut distinction between hoolie and non-hoolie but just many different shades of grey, most of who are also very loyal Spurs fans.

Equally I think there is probably a considerable degree of overlap of the emotions experienced at the game by lads/hoolies and non-violent fans. I'm not at all hard or a fighter but on numerous occasions when we've been beaten at Woolwich or Chelsea and their fans are taking the piss I've wished for it to go off outside, if only for 2-3 minutes before the worst of my anger passes. Football is a tribal activity, and however much we may not want to actually get involved in violence or to harm others, where there is passion there will also be aggression. For most of us this is as far as it gets, but it's not as far from violence as some would like it to be.

I think football has become too sanitised and would welcome a return to there being an edge at games. It would definitely improve the atmosphere. That said, I obviously believe that those who want to go to the game without fear of violence should be able to. I think sentences for football violence are far too strict, when it is just two like minded groups coming together, but bullying of people who don't want to know is well out of order and should be dealt with strictly...though this would be considered hugely unethical by any self-respecting hoolie anyway.
 
Some excellent points PGY, there is indeed a 'hooligan' in many of us, especially when football is concerned. Although, like yourself, I'm not a fighter I do get very loud and defensive of us when watching Spurs, and for example this had led to more than one confrontation in public houses about our beloved team :)

Also you're right many/most/all 'hooligans' do love the team and support it through thick and thin. As you say many shades of grey and indeed navy blue and white:thumbup:
 
Mensa said:
Hooliganism was as much politically motivated in the 80's than anything else, when anarchy was rife, it certainly creates an atmosphere, just not a good one
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Wait, wut? I dont remember Tottenham fighting the ICF because one voted Tories and the other Labour.

EDIT - Just seen Greaves357 already debated it. Ignore me.
 
OZHotspur said:
whilst im not in favor of a return to the days of widespread hooliganism, i think its absence (and what this allows clubs hiercharchy/owners to do) is a major factor in why modern football atmospheres could possibly be shit...the expensive tickets, the emphasis on season ticket holders and the corporate boxes have all dislocated the 'real' fans from supporting a club that should be a representation of the tottenham community, not yuppy bandwagons seduced by our growing reputation or our 'jewishness'..
of course I have no way to prove this, but pretty confident ppl who actually live in tottenham and its surrounds are under-represented in the current crowd at WHL.
my old man litterally had to 'bleed' to support tottenham...whats the criteria these days?
if you want an example of how dangerous owners can be look no further:
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/pi...ithin-past-problems-return-psg-165922229.html
Banning 13 000 season ticket holders cause a qatari oil baron buys YOUR club and realises he cant jump off his boat in monaco, pick up his tyrannical oil baron friends, jump in the lambo and take them to watch his new plaything without a few scrapes and flares is FUCKING ridicoulous...its about time spurs supporters realised this is OUR club and levy/lewis can go fuck themselves if they want to change it..
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So season ticket holders aren't real fans? How does that work then?

And are you talking about the same Levy/Lewis that changed the club by booting out the bloke in the raincoat first chance they got, and gradually improving "OUR club's" league position from mid-table.

Your shoulder is going to stink of vinegar if you don't brush that working class nawty boy chip off if it.

Regards, A. Yuppy (sic)
 
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