Only trying to increase the gene pool so I'm not related to every cunt up here!
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(I wrote this this afternoon but didn't finish it before I had to boogie off to a meeting, so it might be a bit out of sync)
When I try to imagine what the goal is in "shaking off" the tag, I see two: 1. it's somehow shameful. Let me be perfectly clear: I'm not saying this is your position. But when I read about people wanting to "shake off" certain associations, it's often because they want to move beyond some kind of shameful, negative connotation. Think "British Petroleum" => "BP".
2. What I understand as your position: Spurs fans invite violence by being associated with Judaism, so they should "shake off" the association in order to stay safe. That's like an American touring through Europe with a Canada badge on their luggage. They're "shaking off" the (negative) associations in Europe with the US. But that doesn't stop anti-Americans from being anti-American. Nor does it stop (hypothetical) anti-American acts from happening. The anti-American bigots just choose other targets. Same for the Sikhs in the US: should they have to stop wearing their dastars because they're erroneously associated with Islam and attract anti-Islam bigots? They can if they like (though their religion forbids it, I think), but the root problem is anti-Islam bigotry, not that ignorant bigots can't tell Sikhs from Muslims.
Anyway…
But I think there's more to it than just that—there's the general rise in anti-Semitism, for example. And there's also the fact that it doesn't take a lot of googling to figure out that Spurs are considered a "Jewish club". If an ultra is just wikiing us just to see what our colours are, he'll also see that connection. For example:
Finally, I wasn't in Rome, but I've not heard of the attack being referred to as specifically anti-Semitic. Maybe it was; I don't know. But, from what I've read in the papers, only the incident in Lyon was understood as anti-Semitic. And even so, it's assuming that Nazi salutes are read as, first and foremost, anti-Semitic (which they are, but they're also fascistic in general, and fascism is about more than just anti-Semitism). Long story short, the narrative of "Lazio were going to go after any English club, and Lyon later copycatted" is what Occam's razor makes of the incidents, at least to me.
That's nowhere near what I meant to say. I was merely pointing out that if someone is the victim of an anti-Semitic attack, then it doesn't really matter if they're "actually" Jewish or not. The perpetrators are idiots and anti-Semites and deserve what they get.
This is the part I find peculiar. I don't feel any need to somehow correct people should they ever assume I'm Jewish because I support Spurs (not that that's ever happened to me). Basically, I don't mind the connection one bit.
When I try to imagine what the goal is in "shaking off" the tag, I see two: 1. it's somehow shameful. Let me be perfectly clear: I'm not saying this is your position. But when I read about people wanting to "shake off" certain associations, it's often because they want to move beyond some kind of shameful, negative connotation. Think "British Petroleum" => "BP".
2. What I understand as your position: Spurs fans invite violence by being associated with Judaism, so they should "shake off" the association in order to stay safe. That's like an American touring through Europe with a Canada badge on their luggage. They're "shaking off" the (negative) associations in Europe with the US. But that doesn't stop anti-Americans from being anti-American. Nor does it stop (hypothetical) anti-American acts from happening. The anti-American bigots just choose other targets. Same for the Sikhs in the US: should they have to stop wearing their dastars because they're erroneously associated with Islam and attract anti-Islam bigots? They can if they like (though their religion forbids it, I think), but the root problem is anti-Islam bigotry, not that ignorant bigots can't tell Sikhs from Muslims.
Anyway…
I'm not sure that this is accurate. As I said in my previous post, I think it's Baddiel's movie that brought this all back into the spotlight.
But I think there's more to it than just that—there's the general rise in anti-Semitism, for example. And there's also the fact that it doesn't take a lot of googling to figure out that Spurs are considered a "Jewish club". If an ultra is just wikiing us just to see what our colours are, he'll also see that connection. For example:
If you look at the linked sources, one is an article from 2007 and one is from 2002, which, to me, doesn't suggest that the Jewish heritage was forgotten—unless your frame of reference here is much shorter than five years ago. (Both articles, incidentally, involve Baddiel)Wikipedia said:
Finally, I wasn't in Rome, but I've not heard of the attack being referred to as specifically anti-Semitic. Maybe it was; I don't know. But, from what I've read in the papers, only the incident in Lyon was understood as anti-Semitic. And even so, it's assuming that Nazi salutes are read as, first and foremost, anti-Semitic (which they are, but they're also fascistic in general, and fascism is about more than just anti-Semitism). Long story short, the narrative of "Lazio were going to go after any English club, and Lyon later copycatted" is what Occam's razor makes of the incidents, at least to me.
Hi Eskimo, I don't think you could. I agree that all this God stuff is nonsense, and so did our most notable supporter AJ Ayer as he stated in Language Truth and Logic, as you say an 'imaginary friend', but that's for another debate. ('Freddie' Ayer wasn't Jewish either BTW
)to be Jewish isn't enough to start believing in the God of the Old Testament, or not IMO anyway. I'd leave it to our Jewish friends to yea or nay that, as an outsider I think you'd need to do more than that to qualify.
Exactly, I keep making this point, but still some seem to miss it. Then I get called repetitive, well it's no wonder is it, sometimes it takes a while to get the point home.
We are not the girl in the mini-skirt, we are not the persecuted black man, etc.
We're some white bloke with a few pints of lager in him, putting on a mini-skirt and not very attractive make up and pretending we're a girl in a mini-skirt. And nothing wrong with that per se, it's nice to have a hobby
And nothing wrong with that per se, it's nice to have a hobby Good to hear it SOS, I think that's a great society. One of my favourite books of recent times is The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.
Well said, a bit of sanity amongst the hyperbole.
Currently IIRC, Chelsea have a Jewish chairman, one of West Ham's chairmen maybe both is/are Jewish (in light of West Ham's foul racism from so many of their supporters over the years, this would have to be one of God's best tricks, if he existed, but it's actually just the usual quirks of life). for many years Woolwich have had a strong Jewish connection at board level.
Further unlike us, both West Ham and Chelsea have had a Jewish manager. Which again given the foul racism those clubs used to perpetrate against us, is laden with irony.
Even more ironic West Ham have got the hat trick oi vay, because one of their more notable players of the Prem era, Berkovic is Jewish.
You couldn't make it up, but you don't need to, life is various and weird indeed
No, it's your reply that doesn't compute. You're sounding like a character from a comedy show (eg the Jewish Sacha Baron Cohen) who used to go round pretending he was black and saying, 'is it cos I's black?'
Or in another show I saw, a bloke demanding he be treated as a woman, when he hadn't had surgery, wasn't cross dressing whatever, he was claiming his 'human right' to be any sex he pleased.
Again no problem with that as the Doors sang 'people are strange', and there's nothing with that either, as long as the person isn't going round shooting people, etc.
Aberdeen, I cant believe you equated the Nation of Islam and the idea of Jewish nationality and nobody lolled.
The Yiddish 'nation' lasted hundreds of years, continually displaced by pogroms in central and eastern Europe. They had a distinct culture and language (albeit one that evolved according to their geographical displacement, varying from German influenced to Slavic influenced etc). They were, at the very least, a culturally and ethnically defined people continually deprived of a land to call a permanent home. Basically a homeless nation.
The NOI was invented by a petty criminal who proclaimed himself God and another charlatan who masqueraded as God's messenger and struggled to keep his dick in his pants, while claiming whites were actual devils created by an evil scientist.
I mean I'm sure you could try to justify the comparison but really that would be an insult to Jewish history.
Tl:dr - NOI = Jewish nation = Lol
The Yiddish 'nation' lasted hundreds of years, continually displaced by pogroms in central and eastern Europe. They had a distinct culture and language (albeit one that evolved according to their geographical displacement, varying from German influenced to Slavic influenced etc). They were, at the very least, a culturally and ethnically defined people continually deprived of a land to call a permanent home. Basically a homeless nation.
The NOI was invented by a petty criminal who proclaimed himself God and another charlatan who masqueraded as God's messenger and struggled to keep his dick in his pants, while claiming whites were actual devils created by an evil scientist.
I mean I'm sure you could try to justify the comparison but really that would be an insult to Jewish history.
Tl:dr - NOI = Jewish nation = Lol
I was in the Bricklayers watching Milan away. When Charlie got injured the camera showed Woodgate warming up! He hadn't made an appearance in 17 years at that point. Everyone got on their feel and started shouting, "YIDDO YIDDO YODDO YIDDO"! Goosebumps. Shit was dope.
Yeah I'm not sure what is right. Just my own experience.
Not going to try to justify it, although I was just pointing out that a group of people calling themselves a nation doesn't make it so. Might have been a bit "bottom of the barrel", but that's my usual level.
As it stands, I'm fine with Yid and I'm sorry others aren't. However, the depth of the argument is beyond my knowledge, so to extricate myself from this, I am going to quote my eight year old self - "right, if I can't be Steve Archibald, I'm taking my ball and fucking off home".
Keep happy those of all or no faith.
Eperons, here's my position, so you don't keep going round making up stuff and undermining my position with poor and irritating analogies.
We're not a Jewish club, so there shouldn't be anything to shake off. We are more like the Canadian than the US person on the terms of your analogy. Shouting 'Yid Army' is pantomime lunacy as it's shouted out in the main by bellicose Brits who have no particular affinity with Jewish culture and religion, etc. In fact it's more like a Canadian going abroad and shouting out USA, USA.
We should stop singing it because it's nonsense, and also because it incites trouble both in terms of violence and in terms of 'do-gooders' like Baddiel and the delightfully named Mr Herbert. It may also land us in trouble with the authorities one day.
I can tell you if you go on the West Ham websites they're already gearing up for Monday and moaning how we sing racist stuff about yids and get away with it. Which 'makes them hate us even more', (as if they needed an excuse ) While us poor little Hammers are being victimised for a bit of harmless fun in Nazi salutes and songs about Auschwitz. I'm exaggerating of course, but the subtext is clearly there, and what they say off forum, where the subtext soon disappears, trust me I know I've heard it.
Some of them don't even disguise it, even if you're standing in front of them and they know your Spurs, they'll happily tell you 'I hope your whole team dies in a plane crash.' I was once in a Spurs pub, run by a Spurs governor, watching a Spurs game, and right in front of him this Hammer started singing 'Spurs are on their way to Auchscwitz.' I'd say it's unbelievable, but I know too many West Ham fans and their poisoned bitter hate towards us. Sometimes the anti-semitism is a ploy to get at us, sometimes it's what they believe, often it's both IMHO.
We're not a Jewish club, so there shouldn't be anything to shake off. We are more like the Canadian than the US person on the terms of your analogy. Shouting 'Yid Army' is pantomime lunacy as it's shouted out in the main by bellicose Brits who have no particular affinity with Jewish culture and religion, etc. In fact it's more like a Canadian going abroad and shouting out USA, USA.
We should stop singing it because it's nonsense, and also because it incites trouble both in terms of violence and in terms of 'do-gooders' like Baddiel and the delightfully named Mr Herbert.
It may also land us in trouble with the authorities one day.I can tell you if you go on the West Ham websites they're already gearing up for Monday and moaning how we sing racist stuff about yids and get away with it. Which 'makes them hate us even more', (as if they needed an excuse
) While us poor little Hammers are being victimised for a bit of harmless fun in Nazi salutes and songs about Auschwitz. I'm exaggerating of course, but the subtext is clearly there, and what they say off forum, where the subtext soon disappears, trust me I know I've heard it.Some of them don't even disguise it, even if you're standing in front of them and they know your Spurs, they'll happily tell you 'I hope your whole team dies in a plane crash.' I was once in a Spurs pub, run by a Spurs governor, watching a Spurs game, and right in front of him this Hammer started singing 'Spurs are on their way to Auchscwitz.' I'd say it's unbelievable, but I know too many West Ham fans and their poisoned bitter hate towards us. Sometimes the anti-semitism is a ploy to get at us, sometimes it's what they believe, often it's both IMHO.
Greaves_357
did you say previously that you used to join in with the yid songs? I think I saw it but I might be seeing things (probably the latter).People can change their opinion. I used to join in too, until my conscience stopped me.
My god some here are thinking way to much over this Yid or Yiddo was a term highlighted by the Spurs firms especially in the late 70's and 80s it was a used as a battle cry and more so as arrival of the firms at an away venue.
But even at all the European games even at Feynord in games out there I cant say I really recall anti Semitism in a huge way being thrown at us that's why I agree more with WookieD and his view that its old news on new paper that did not need dragging up.
Maybe it's more of an age when you were diehard involved supporting spurs but I doubt I will ever hear the word Yid in a negative manner as it was spurs fans that turned it back on the other supporters taunts and over time it may be replaced with something else.
For me I was and will always be a (Yid or Yiddo A Spurs fan)
But even at all the European games even at Feynord in games out there I cant say I really recall anti Semitism in a huge way being thrown at us that's why I agree more with WookieD and his view that its old news on new paper that did not need dragging up.
Maybe it's more of an age when you were diehard involved supporting spurs but I doubt I will ever hear the word Yid in a negative manner as it was spurs fans that turned it back on the other supporters taunts and over time it may be replaced with something else.
For me I was and will always be a (Yid or Yiddo A Spurs fan)
Eperons, here's my position, so you don't keep going round making up stuff and undermining my position with poor and irritating analogies.
We're not a Jewish club, so there shouldn't be anything to shake off. We are more like the Canadian than the US person on the terms of your analogy. Shouting 'Yid Army' is pantomime lunacy as it's shouted out in the main by bellicose Brits who have no particular affinity with Jewish culture and religion, etc. In fact it's more like a Canadian going abroad and shouting out USA, USA.
We should stop singing it because it's nonsense, and also because it incites trouble both in terms of violence and in terms of 'do-gooders' like Baddiel and the delightfully named Mr Herbert.
I can tell you if you go on the West Ham websites they're already gearing up for Monday and moaning how we sing racist stuff about yids and get away with it. Which 'makes them hate us even more', (as if they needed an excuse
Some of them don't even disguise it, even if you're standing in front of them and they know your Spurs, they'll happily tell you 'I hope your whole team dies in a plane crash.' I was once in a Spurs pub, run by a Spurs governor, watching a Spurs game, and right in front of him this Hammer started singing 'Spurs are on their way to Auchscwitz.' I'd say it's unbelievable, but I know too many West Ham fans and their poisoned bitter hate towards us. Sometimes the anti-semitism is a ploy to get at us, sometimes it's what they believe, often it's both IMHO.
So because being affiliated with Jews causes trouble we should stop saying it. What a brave man you are
I know that's fine I just wanted to know why he changed it. He's probably said it already but I can't be fucked to find it.
Anyone here thats against Spurs fans using the word Yiddo in a positive light happy to call a cigarette a "fag"?
Which came from "can I bum a fag off ya"?
I bet you use the word, hundreds of times and you dont give two fucks.
Please dismount the high horse.
Which came from "can I bum a fag off ya"?
I bet you use the word, hundreds of times and you dont give two fucks.
Please dismount the high horse.