We'll sing what we want, We'll sing what we waaannnnntttttt........
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I think you will find that most of us still do. Those against using the term/& for disassociating Spurs from the Jewish connection are in the minority.
Yid for life
too many words for me there
Éperons
, as y'all were, just posting my 2p worth.
Éperons
, as y'all were, just posting my 2p worth.
I am not disassociating myself from the Jewish connection. That is where
Greaves_357
and I differ.
I would have your back if you were attacked for being Jewish.
It is the word Yid I don't like.
As
LarryCatt
as illustrated, it offends some Jewish people. Even, as he has shown, some Jewish Spurs supporters.
Do non-Jewish Spurs supporters have the right to offend Jewish Spurs supporters with a word they deem to be a racial hate word?
Greaves_357
and I differ.I would have your back if you were attacked for being Jewish.
It is the word Yid I don't like.
As
LarryCatt
as illustrated, it offends some Jewish people. Even, as he has shown, some Jewish Spurs supporters.Do non-Jewish Spurs supporters have the right to offend Jewish Spurs supporters with a word they deem to be a racial hate word?
We'll always be Yids to the vast majority of Spurs fans, as you say, to us, the word means Spurs Supporter.
The 3000 hardcore supporters in France last night were heard loudly chanting "AVBs blue and white army YIDS" for a good 10 minutes. Those fans havent abandoned anyone, despite the wailings of a few people on a forum.
Just to clear it up. Jewish is a religion, not a nationality in case anyone was wondering. I identify myself as Jewish becuase that is the religion I was raised on. I also am an American. I also have Irish Catholic an Italian ancestry that I can identify myself. I know that is a little confusing but thats America for ya.
'Jewish' is more than a religion. It can be classified as a 'nation' in the classical sense, meaning a group of people with a shared history and a sense of a group identity rather than a territorial and political entity. http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm#Nation
That would be Zionism
Edit: actually never mind you're right
Edit: actually never mind you're right
No. Zionism is a political and territorial definition - namely that Jews should have a nation state (Israel).
Pretty much everyone is still ignoring the fact that a fair few people who are "itk" when it comes to european ultras etc. have said that it was Lyon hooligans just trying to get at the Spurs fans and not some anti-semetic attack. The nazi salutes were done to get at the Spurs fans to try and get them out into having a fight with them. They just picked on a pub with people who weren't interested in a fight. People out there (who didn't over exaggerate like a few did) were tweeting saying it was nothing big, few smashed windows, bit of a stand off then it was over. This whole debate has been brought up again by a non-event yet people refuse to acknowledge that.
How about we replace the yid chants with anti-fascist ones. That way no-one gets insulted (except maybe paulo di canio), but we still keep hold of that defining part of our history.
Not sure I know any though. 'Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler'
Or that one they sing in Cassablanca to drown out the Nazis: the marseillaise :avbfacepalm:
Not sure I know any though. 'Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler'
Or that one they sing in Cassablanca to drown out the Nazis: the marseillaise :avbfacepalm:
Don't like it? Don't use it.
Feel free to point out to others that you find it offensive, then it is up to the perpetrator to decide if he will stop or not. I'm pretty sure that was the point of the original post. Didnt see anywhere that the OP had asked anyone to stop using the term, just that he was going to.
Personally, I associate the word Yid with Spurs supporters, not with people of the Jewish faith. I'm aware this is historically bollocks, but many things worm their way into popular culture. I even remember when gay meant you were particularly happy.
I'm reasonably convinced that our fans were attacked because of a Jewish connection, but also believe this was an excuse by the thugs who carried out the attack. We do seem to be the only team from England that presently gets offered out, so the Jewish thing isn't helping, but that's the problem of the arseholes doing the saluting and fighting, not ours.
We are now "the Jewish club" and removing the word Yid from our own vocabulary isn't going to change that. Ever. I believe everyone has the right to raise objections about words thoughts or deeds, as long as this doesn't become a lecture from anyone who thinks they know better than others.
Feel free to point out to others that you find it offensive, then it is up to the perpetrator to decide if he will stop or not. I'm pretty sure that was the point of the original post. Didnt see anywhere that the OP had asked anyone to stop using the term, just that he was going to.
Personally, I associate the word Yid with Spurs supporters, not with people of the Jewish faith. I'm aware this is historically bollocks, but many things worm their way into popular culture. I even remember when gay meant you were particularly happy.
I'm reasonably convinced that our fans were attacked because of a Jewish connection, but also believe this was an excuse by the thugs who carried out the attack. We do seem to be the only team from England that presently gets offered out, so the Jewish thing isn't helping, but that's the problem of the arseholes doing the saluting and fighting, not ours.
We are now "the Jewish club" and removing the word Yid from our own vocabulary isn't going to change that. Ever. I believe everyone has the right to raise objections about words thoughts or deeds, as long as this doesn't become a lecture from anyone who thinks they know better than others.
It is interesting that almost to a man, Spurs fans that are actually from Israel actually love the fact we are proud call ourselves Yids. I have seen links to several articles in the Jewish media in support of it.
Along with many posters on other forums with user names like Yid-Israel etc stating their approval.
I know this isn't definitive but it is a reasonable indicator of sentiment.
Along with many posters on other forums with user names like Yid-Israel etc stating their approval.
I know this isn't definitive but it is a reasonable indicator of sentiment.
Well unsurprisingly I disagree Eperons, it's absolutely material that WE ARE NOT a Jewish club. Also I think you're seriously misguided if you think that people singing 'Yid Army' are by and large trying to lure out anti-Semitism.
Most of them singing it are beered up Englishmen who could be singing 'Pink tomatoes' for all the affinity with and knowledge of Jewish culture that they possess. Some of them are bang up front racists, and you know what, a few of them probably aren't even that fond of Jewish people.
The people who think us singing 'Yid Army' is some kind of Schindler's List revisited are living in lala land, AFAIC. They are typically bellicose beered up British people, doing what a lot of us Brits are good at, giving it large, and if necessary having a ruck. We used to be pretty good at that, though fortunately it doesn't happen so much at our grounds now, unfortunately though the Continentals seem to be getting adept at giving it out these days.
I don't think people will immediately start to like us if we stop singing Yid Army, so you read my point wrong.
What I'm saying is, we're not Jewish, it's a ridiculous song to sing given who's usually singing it, and maybe just maybe if we stop going round pretending we're Jews when we're not, maybe in some time in the future, people will start to see we're not a Jewish club.
While we continue this pantomime lunacy, we'll never shake off the 'Jewish club' tag.
For a long time like many a Spurs fan I played along with the pantomime, but you know what I don't think it's funny anymore.
Most of them singing it are beered up Englishmen who could be singing 'Pink tomatoes' for all the affinity with and knowledge of Jewish culture that they possess. Some of them are bang up front racists, and you know what, a few of them probably aren't even that fond of Jewish people.
The people who think us singing 'Yid Army' is some kind of Schindler's List revisited are living in lala land, AFAIC. They are typically bellicose beered up British people, doing what a lot of us Brits are good at, giving it large, and if necessary having a ruck. We used to be pretty good at that, though fortunately it doesn't happen so much at our grounds now, unfortunately though the Continentals seem to be getting adept at giving it out these days.
I don't think people will immediately start to like us if we stop singing Yid Army, so you read my point wrong.
What I'm saying is, we're not Jewish, it's a ridiculous song to sing given who's usually singing it, and maybe just maybe if we stop going round pretending we're Jews when we're not, maybe in some time in the future, people will start to see we're not a Jewish club.
While we continue this pantomime lunacy, we'll never shake off the 'Jewish club' tag.
For a long time like many a Spurs fan I played along with the pantomime, but you know what I don't think it's funny anymore.
Causality and correlation certainly do not have to be linked. However, I am equally mind boggled that you cannot see any link.
Before November, our Jewish heritage was largely forgotten outside of London, let alone Europe. What has happened is not only for this heritage to be qustioned in the worst possible way (by labelling an entire clubs fans racists and asking for police intervention... Which, utterly surprisingly to me generates a lot of noise in the world media), but our defence of our principles to be broadcast as well... Or, if you will, for the supporters of Tottenham Hotspur to unwittingly find their position as "actively sympathetic" to the Jewish comminuty broadcast through news stream, retweeted, blogged and discussed over the whole of Europe within football circles...
...So something largely forgotten and ignored, dragged straight into the public realm on a bigger stage than any of the foulest things that Chelsea or West Ham say or do, is to be ignored as a contributing factor to mass aggression towards our fans unseen for a generation?
Sure Italian ultras love a fight, but they were given a "valid" target that many of them most likely didn't even know existed.
It looks like we're in agreementI am not disassociating myself from the Jewish connection. That is where
I would have your back if you were attacked for being Jewish.
It is the word Yid I don't like.
As
Do non-Jewish Spurs supporters have the right to offend Jewish Spurs supporters with a word they deem to be a racial hate word?
I've never associated myself with Jewish people LG, any more than I associate myself with Arabs, Indians, Muslims, Catholics or the Chinese.
I associate myself with Spurs, completely different thing. As I've said I'm not bothered about my personal safety because I don't do away games any more, and rarely go to home games either.
I just think the whole thing is becoming counter productive for my club. That's what I care about primarily.
Naturally I hope we all can love each other and teach the world to sing, and all that bollocks, but that ain't happening and I ain't Henry Kissinger. Spurs that's my realistic worry, and even that probably I shouldn't bother with, but hey, we all need a hobby
I'm glad you wrote that, some people seemed to think at the start of this debate that Jewish wasn't a nationality, and even thought that I was some kind of fool for talking about Jews as a nation. I knew it was far more complicated than that, but I just ignore people like that, who don't understand how tricky it to define Jewishness.
We may no longer be a Jewish club by definition of the multicultural nature of our fan base, but we have been known as a Jewish club for over 100 years.
Back in the early days of Spurs, the Tottenham area had a larger than average Jewish population and therefore our fan base was similarly above average Jewish. So, historically, because of our neighbourhood, we were tagged as Jewish.
Your contention that we aren't a Jewish club holds water if you disregard the history behind the association in the first place.