rule changed last year. i'm 90% sure this is trueI`m still trying to get me head around this business of Villa having to win the FA cup to qualify for Europe. If this is the case, how is it that Hull qualified for this seasons competition after losing to Woolwich in the final, at the expense of Man United who finished 7th ?
aulinhowtf:
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Certainly understand your point about Villa but cannot want the arse to win the cup I'm afraid
:defoe:
Yep AM, AFAIK the rule changed last year.
Fine, no problem. I'm not asking you or anyone else to want Woolwich to win the final. I'm just giving my analysis, which is based on many years of thinking about our status in the game, and has been honed in many a debate over those years. I have an in-depth knowledge of how many trophies other clubs have won, when they won them, how important they are, and also other important criteria such as fanbase, income and (foreseeable) future prospects.
I didn't just come to my conclusion about Villa today, I've stated in other threads on here and other forums, how (and why) for me it's between us, Villa, and Everton for the 6th place in the status stakes. (Of course go back just five years and we were fighting over 5th spot, but City have blown all three clubs apart with the combination of their recent past and more distant achievements)
Okay, even if you're taking more into account than simple trophy haul... I just don't get your overall conclusions. And trust me, that's from reading all your posts on this thread.
I'm not trying to lecture, Greavsie, just point out that the criteria you've been using to compare us with Villa, when applied to the teams who are actually finishing around us in the league, is of less value. After all, Liverpool are so far out in front with their acheivements that we shouldn't consier ourselves level with them... except that we have been in direct competition with them in recent years (last year is an exception to this, I'll accept).
Perhaps I'm being too emotive with my preference of Villa winning the final. Your conclusions seem far more logical/cold with the entire history of the clubs taken into account. I'm looking at the here and now - and I know I don't want to see Jack Wilshire singing on an open-top bus again.
We clearly won't agree on this, which is fine, but I hope you understand why so many on here won't be agreeing with your support of Woolwich in the final (which I gather you do, so fair enough).
Was reading through thinking " oh yea, good point, nice stats, oh right, that's interesting, nice, WHAAATT!!!" . Come on Greavsie, this who's the biggest club stats bollocks really doesn't mean much compared to our rivalry with Woolwich.A lot of Saints fans haven't been happy since at least the days of Hoddle's departure to us. Some are probably still annoyed about us grabbing Chivers off them in the 60s.
Whether they like it or not, and why should they like it
But a few more facts illustrate the point, we have won 8 major trophies since they last won their only one way back in 1976. We have way more top flight points then them, both in the Prem and Div 1, and a much larger income and fanbase.
For me we're battling for 6th place in the hierarchy with Everton and Villa (a key reason why I'm supporting Woolwich in the FA Cup final), while Soton are battling round about the 12th place with the likes of West Ham and Sunderland.
Fair comments TLD.
I'll give some depth to my views on us v Villa, this isn't me lecturing either BTW, but I think I need to spell things out so people don't misunderstand my position. They may still not agree, that's not a problem. (Being rude or sarcastic is a different matter obviously
Not that you were TLD, which is I'm very happy to debate with you.) Villa have more trophies, but many have been won a long time ago. So on the 'trophy count' allowing for the fact that I give more weight to recent trophies, I make us round about equal, probably us shading it a little. However, Villa have won the European Cup (we haven't) and more league titles than us. Also they have won the Lge more recently than us. (1981 compared to 1961), so that levels up things considerably.
With regards to top flight points gained, Villa are significantly in front of us, http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table
However we edge it in the Prem era
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/all-time-table/1992-1993
Our income is way in excess of Villa's and so too is our fanbase, though anyone who has argued about fanbase on a forum, down the pub, wherever, will know it's a difficult subject to prove.
For example, I think we have a bigger fanbase than Toon, but I suspect there are lots of non-Spurs fans who think that's laughable. Hilariously many West Ham fans think their fanbase is a similar size to ours, whereas ours is probably three times at least bigger globally.
So overall, and I could go into far more depth, I don't think there's much between us and Villa. We probably edge it ATM, but an FA Cup win brings them neck and neck at least, IMHO.
Re Liverpool, they're on a completely different level to us. They are one of three 'superpowers' of English football. For me, they're still the second biggest club in the country. Though I can see that Woolwich are pushing them closer and closer, and another FA Cup will further narrow that gap. But as they are both well out of our league, it's not a major concern of mine.
Fair enough OTB, it may not mean much to you, but it means plenty to me. I am very much interested in our status in the game, and unlike many/the vast majority of Spurs fans don't get too hung up about Woolwich. People like South Stand Billy will know, my particular pet hate is West Ham. Unless it directly benefits us, for example, I always want Woolwich to beat West Ham.
Are you above having your silly analysis made fun of? Go for it. I'm not interested in exchanging views with a Spurs 'fan' who will be be supporting the scum in the FA Cup final - nobody apart from Villa fans, thinks that they are a bigger club than us.
Blackburn, Leeds, Wolves, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday etc? Are they all bigger? Your not using your head man. You have gone sour. Bye.
I've read and posted some utter shite on here over the last couple of years, but Greaves is topping the lot with this thread I think. What the actual holy fuck.
What the heck, thought I'd stumbled into the FA Cup Final thread.
Back on track - Saints 1-1 Spurs.
Back on track - Saints 1-1 Spurs.
Villa are an old club, full of heritage and bullshit: A lot like us sometimes except now that have one of the biggest bullshitters of all time coaching them and they think that he is super ferret when he isnt. At least we have a manager who is admired for his face to face player management.
If Villa are bigger, then they are bigger.
You dont support Woolwich to "stop Villa being bigger".
You dont support Woolwich to "stop Villa being bigger".
Yeah, he's great with the players he likes, but Id admire him more if he actually got something out of the players that have been criminally underused.
Unless one is a fly on the wall who knows what goes on? One can speculate until the cows go home, if we have not got the firepower why play the defectables!
I am not sure if Villa are bigger than us , but if they win the
FA cup they will be a more successful club than us this century .
Both of us have rotten disinterested owner syndrome .
We certainly slipped down the pecking order since the
Sugar/Lewis regimes .
Before this Dark Age in terms of silverware , we could compete
for the best players , be shit one year but still win a cup , now
we seem light years away in terms of quality compared to the
present top 4 and no boardroom level desire to get there .
I will always want the Arse to loose but sadly they always have the
last laugh .
FA cup they will be a more successful club than us this century .
Both of us have rotten disinterested owner syndrome .
We certainly slipped down the pecking order since the
Sugar/Lewis regimes .
Before this Dark Age in terms of silverware , we could compete
for the best players , be shit one year but still win a cup , now
we seem light years away in terms of quality compared to the
present top 4 and no boardroom level desire to get there .
I will always want the Arse to loose but sadly they always have the
last laugh .
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