Andros Townsend

[cahspur]

seriously guys, why do you waste your time responding to Gibberish's posts? The guy is borderline certifiable and is almost devoid of any rational knowledge or intelligence where football is concerned.
You all know the adage about the problem of arguing with idiots, they simply drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

As quite possibly his biggest sucker, I could not agree with you more, especially your last bit.

 

[CJJ]

seriously guys, why do you waste your time responding to Gibberish's posts? The guy is borderline certifiable and is almost devoid of any rational knowledge or intelligence where football is concerned.
You all know the adage about the problem of arguing with idiots, they simply drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Agree.

Just turned 23, had his first proper spurs season in a turbulent and unstable season where literally 95% of the squad were gash, yet he's "almost a lost cause".

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's especially hard to take one seriously if it's based on nonsense.

 

[Team Tanguy]

At its essence Gibbs doesn't make unreasonable arguments regarding the type of teams we could/should field.
There's nothing wrong with playing Capoue/Sandro as a base whilst 3 attackers play behind Ade. Far from Stoke. And a much better solution than lining up with 1 DM covering for technical midgets behind Soldado- which will not work because we are NOT Barca.We need guys who can hold it up, get stuck in etc. Grit, steel, wrath whatever you want to call it.

I disagree with his assessment of many players though. By many I mean everyone except Dembele.

 

[cahspur]

At its essence Gibbs doesn't make unreasonable arguments regarding the type of teams we could/should field.
There's nothing wrong with playing Capoue/Sandro as a base whilst 3 attackers play behind Ade. Far from Stoke. And a much better solution than lining up with 1 DM covering for technical midgets behind Soldado- which will not work because we are NOT Barca.We need guys who can hold it up, get stuck in etc. Grit, steel, wrath whatever you want to call it.

I disagree with his assessment of many players though. By many I mean everyone except Dembele.

I don't wish to argue but I'll respond to this simply because the "Stoke" accusation has been made by me among others. A base of Capoue and Sandro are the tip of the iceberg in his explanation for his tactics, and it is the entirety of them for which I lob the point, not simply having those two in holding midfield positions.

Even then, as I've said before, there's a reason you don't see two large defensive-minded mids used by any top side in Europe. Harms your vertical movement and causes you to be too layered vertically with speed and creativity higher, and physicality deeper.

 

[Team Tanguy]

I don't wish to argue but I'll respond to this simply because the "Stoke" accusation has been made by me among others. A base of Capoue and Sandro are the tip of the iceberg in his explanation for his tactics, and it is the entirety of them for which I lob the point, not simply having those two in holding midfield positions.

Even then, as I've said before, there's a reason you don't see two large defensive-minded mids used by any top side in Europe. Harms your vertical movement and causes you to be too layered vertically with speed and creativity higher, and physicality deeper.

Capoue can pass the ball lol.

It's no different to Vieira/Gilberto, Roy Keane/Nicky Butt, Matic/Luiz etc. Plenty of teams successfully do it, and it works well when you have 3 interchanging AMs behind the CF.

 

[cahspur]

Capoue can pass the ball lol.

It's no different to Vieira/Gilberto, Roy Keane/Nicky Butt, Matic/Luiz etc. Plenty of teams successfully do it, and it works well when you have 3 interchanging AMs behind the CF.

Capoue is a wonderful passer of the ball, I don't deny that. But that "pinning the opposition" back comes from movement as well, and having a "layer of creativity" on top of a "layer of physicality" makes one entirely too predictable and limited in the final third.

The references you point out either played in 4-4-2's which demanded more physicality centrally, as well as played when the league was considerably slower, or features examples of more mobile options in Matic and Luiz.

 

[Team Tanguy]

Capoue is a wonderful passer of the ball, I don't deny that. But that "pinning the opposition" back comes from movement as well, and having a "layer of creativity" on top of a "layer of physicality" makes one entirely too predictable and limited in the final third.

The references you point out either played in 4-4-2's which demanded more physicality centrally, as well as played when the league was considerably slower, or features examples of more mobile options in Matic and Luiz.

It's semantics, 442 4231

gilberto vieira

ljyungberg bergkamp pires

henry


keane butt

beckham scholes giggs

nistelrooy

 

[cahspur]

It's semantics, 442 4231

gilberto vieira

ljyungberg bergkamp pires

henry


keane butt

beckham scholes giggs

nistelrooy

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I see the notion of leaving the attacking mids on their own by having such specifically holding mids as "abandoning" the attacking mids and rather hopeful, since we face so many stacked boxes (and especially at the Lane) and so cannot afford to have two larger, relatively immobile players sitting to "protect the forward players." Become far too static, far too predictable, and far too easy to choke off supply to those attacking mids.

 

[Sanchez18]

I tend to go on trends. IMO the only English players we have had that improved were Carrick who came from another club who had a good youth setup at the time. Sheringham, Judas and King improved. But I think they were products of Lillyshawl who put forward some monster players.

I can't think of many other Enlgish players who came and improved and there has been 100's. So the percentage is small.

There has been a clean sweep at spurs with coaching. So that is a positive. New training grounds could help. And what the Sherwood era did with the kids seems to be positive. So there is hope.

If Townsend, Lennon, Carroll, naughton, Rose etc are to be featured, IMO it had to be after at least a year of coaching with cup games before they stink up our top 4 hopes. I admit the potential is there. But there is so much missing, even the basics of holding a line or drawing defenders etc. so much work to be done.

So do we want to bog him down with dim bulbs to rework when we have players who have the basics covered and have already shown a team game?

What about Kyle Walker? He had a good first season. A terrible second season. And last season, imo, he was one of the best players. (ages 22-23-24). Townsend is one year younger and after his disappointing year who is to say that he won't improve dramatically?

A different point - Townsend sucks in the air, but is very fast and strong. He has great shot power from both feet. He can dribble past anyone. He severely lacks shot accuracy, decision making, and crossing. Do you disagree with any of that? The three attributes i highlighted for his deficiencies are all coachable. IMO he is a 5-10m player. If he improves then he can very easily be a 25-30m winger.

I don't think Lennon, Carroll, Naughton are good enough for us. I think Naughton is a decent backup RB, but i'd prefer a younger option. Rose is not good enough as definite first choice, but IMO is a solid backup and could potentially improve to a starter.

 

[gibbs131]

What about Kyle Walker? He had a good first season. A terrible second season. And last season, imo, he was one of the best players. (ages 22-23-24). Townsend is one year younger and after his disappointing year who is to say that he won't improve dramatically?

A different point - Townsend sucks in the air, but is very fast and strong. He has great shot power from both feet. He can dribble past anyone. He severely lacks shot accuracy, decision making, and crossing. Do you disagree with any of that? The three attributes i highlighted for his deficiencies are all coachable. IMO he is a 5-10m player. If he improves then he can very easily be a 25-30m winger.

I don't think Lennon, Carroll, Naughton are good enough for us. I think Naughton is a decent backup RB, but i'd prefer a younger option. Rose is not good enough as definite first choice, but IMO is a solid backup and could potentially improve to a starter.

I think walker is one of the best right backs in the prem.

I think he should not be used as a wingback because his crossing is terrible. If he held back more we would be so solid. He's a defender in my eyes. And should not be asked to start attacks or distribute just like Dawson shouldn't.

It's him being out of position that makes him steam in and give away poor decisions. He's gone sideways and if he improves, look out.

 

[Sanchez18]

I think walker is one of the best right backs in the prem.

I think he should not be used as a wingback because his crossing is terrible. If he held back more we would be so solid. He's a defender in my eyes. And should not be asked to start attacks or distribute just like Dawson shouldn't.

It's him being out of position that makes him steam in and give away poor decisions. He's gone sideways and if he improves, look out.

I dont mean to be rude, but you didnt really answer any of my questions.. do you feel that Townsend could make a similar jump that Walker could? I belive he could. Just curious what do you think we could get if we sold Townsend?

 

[gibbs131]

I dont mean to be rude, but you didnt really answer any of my questions.. do you feel that Townsend could make a similar jump that Walker could? I belive he could. Just curious what do you think we could get if we sold Townsend?

Walkers first season was great. But our coaching took him sideways/backwards. I think he has/had more ability than Townsend.

Townsend has had so many loan periods, all these coaches to learn from including 3 at Tottenham and he still falls apart on the pitch. IMO he is a lost cause. IMO he will have a few purple patches like Lennon but long term he will bring us nothing but mid table levels of impact.

I don't think he needs replacing. Just selling. In a 4-2-3-1 we don't need conventional wingers. And we have had a lot of AM's being played as DM's or wingers so I think it's time to play them if eriksen and Lamela are out.

 

[Drewinho]

Walkers first season was great. But our coaching took him sideways/backwards. I think he has/had more ability than Townsend.

Townsend has had so many loan periods, all these coaches to learn from including 3 at Tottenham and he still falls apart on the pitch. IMO he is a lost cause. IMO he will have a few purple patches like Lennon but long term he will bring us nothing but mid table levels of impact.

I don't think he needs replacing. Just selling. In a 4-2-3-1 we don't need conventional wingers. And we have had a lot of AM's being played as DM's or wingers so I think it's time to play them if eriksen and Lamela are out.

We wouldn't need to replace Townsend? sorry but that's just shit.

 

[Boltonspur]

Capoue can pass the ball lol.

It's no different to Vieira/Gilberto, Roy Keane/Nicky Butt, Matic/Luiz etc. Plenty of teams successfully do it, and it works well when you have 3 interchanging AMs behind the CF.

This is right. 2 holding midfielders allow your fullbacks to pile forward and use wide space. If your fullbacks are fast enough to get up & down the pitch & know the basics of defending their flank, that is. Imagine the mayhem we can cause with the kind of pace we supposedly have. I saw it with Lennon, yes Lennon, against Shalke. He ran behind them repeatedly & was unlucky to get flagged offside at least twice, probably more. We have some very quick lads who just need to learn the art of composure. If that "maturity" can be instilled into the team, we can be scary in attack & quick to defend. Lose the ball- don't panic. Use skill, speed & composure to get back. Press like fuck & use skill, speed & composure to make the right pass. Then leave it to the strikers. Oh fuck. It was going so well til that last bit...

 

[cahspur]

This is right. 2 holding midfielders allow your fullbacks to pile forward and use wide space. If your fullbacks are fast enough to get up & down the pitch & know the basics of defending their flank, that is. Imagine the mayhem we can cause with the kind of pace we supposedly have. I saw it with Lennon, yes Lennon, against Shalke. He ran behind them repeatedly & was unlucky to get flagged offside at least twice, probably more. We have some very quick lads who just need to learn the art of composure. If that "maturity" can be instilled into the team, we can be scary in attack & quick to defend. Lose the ball- don't panic. Use skill, speed & composure to get back. Press like fuck & use skill, speed & composure to make the right pass. Then leave it to the strikers. Oh fuck. It was going so well til that last bit...

"Holding midfielders" aren't the issue, it's the use of using two highly similar players in those roles, two defensive-minded "destroyers" who are each not particularly mobile. Simply limits your game going forward a bit too much, and limits the supply to and size of the space to exploit for the forward players.

 

[Boltonspur]

"Holding midfielders" aren't the issue, it's the use of using two highly similar players in those roles, two defensive-minded "destroyers" who are each not particularly mobile. Simply limits your game going forward a bit too much, and limits the supply to and size of the space to exploit for the forward players.

If you have two destroyers, comfortable with either foot, who can allow wide players a chance to push on- then you have the making of a great team dude. There are no defensive gaps when they do lose possession. The history of the EPL proves that the teams who have conquered are the teams with high class destroyers. Keane- a total cunt but the best at his job. Viera, almost as good & a bigger cunt. Different era, same principle in my opinion. Make sure the way through is limited. Yedlin is a good example. A RB who can power up & down his flank knowing if he gets caught he has 2 killers to cover him. Converting chances is the bigger worry based on last season. Composure & maturity this year. This squad will be running out of excuses. Time to man up etc.

 

[cahspur]

If you have two destroyers, comfortable with either foot, who can allow wide players a chance to push on- then you have the making of a great team dude. There are no defensive gaps when they do lose possession. The history of the EPL proves that the teams who have conquered are the teams with high class destroyers. Keane- a total cunt but the best at his job. Viera, almost as good. Different era, same principle in my opinion. Make sure the way through is limited. Yedlin is a good example. A RB who can power up & down his flank knowing if he gets caught he has 2 killers to cover him. Converting chances is the bigger worry based on last season. Composure & maturity this year. This squad will be running out of excuses. Time to man up etc.

Times have changed though my friend, the key is to have two players capable of getting stuck in, while also having one player to couple the sitting destroyer who can quickly flip the field and transition to attack. The game is just far too quick these days, and especially in the Prem against the top sides, to have two sizable destroyers. Frankly, having two similar players at all isn't a good idea. Even worse than having two destroyers was having two of the pacier creative type, such as Eriksen and Holtby. Love each of those guys, but as soon as I saw the lineup my heart went right into my throat.

So to maintain two dimensional balance in this league, the best plan is to couple a destroyer with a more mobile, passing type. Too much similarity in either direction is not a good thing, and for us especially not duel destroyers because it will limit our effeciency in unlocking stacked boxes so often used against us on the narrow pitch at the Lane.

 

[Boltonspur]

I think walker is one of the best right backs in the prem.

I think he should not be used as a wingback because his crossing is terrible. If he held back more we would be so solid. He's a defender in my eyes. And should not be asked to start attacks or distribute just like Dawson shouldn't.

It's him being out of position that makes him steam in and give away poor decisions. He's gone sideways and if he improves, look out.

I totally agree (for once)

 

[Boltonspur]

Times have changed though my friend, the key is to have two players capable of getting stuck in, while also having one player to couple the sitting destroyer who can quickly flip the field and transition to attack. The game is just far too quick these days, and especially in the Prem against the top sides, to have two sizable destroyers. Frankly, having two similar players at all isn't a good idea. Even worse than having two destroyers was having two of the pacier creative type, such as Eriksen and Holtby. Love each of those guys, but as soon as I saw the lineup my heart went right into my throat.

So to maintain two dimensional balance in this league, the best plan is to couple a destroyer with a more mobile, passing type. Too much similarity in either direction is not a good thing, and for us especially not duel destroyers because it will limit our effeciency in unlocking stacked boxes so often used against us on the narrow pitch at the Lane.

Why have 2 centre halves then? They do, after all, do the same job? Dude, it's all about setting a team up to beat the opposition. That's why me, you & loads of others are not managing premier league sides. The beauty of 2 midfield destroyers is- in my opinion (& proven to be successful)- that it allows attacking full backs to attack, knowing that they have a window of opportunity to get back into position & defend because they have their arse covered for the few seconds it should take them(4.2) to get back. It exposes the opponents wide areas whilst still arse covering to spare the blushes of the counter attack. No?

 

[Mr S Pippo]

Wingbacks , Walker needs to get forward only when the forward play has developed. Not bomb ahead and be in a position where others are playing catch up? Simple.
Today's football sucess is to be filexable, as a team , as a player not holding ridged to your position. Two defensive mid/fld players can play together if they do what they are told.