Andros Townsend

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Andros Townsend..would you to keep him?


  • Total voters
    472
Why have 2 centre halves then? They do, after all, do the same job? Dude, it's all about setting a team up to beat the opposition. That's why me, you & loads of others are not managing premier league sides. The beauty of 2 midfield destroyers is- in my opinion (& proven to be successful)- that it allows attacking full backs to attack, knowing that they have a window of opportunity to get back into position & defend because they have their arse covered for the few seconds it should take them(4.2) to get back. It exposes the opponents wide areas whilst still arse covering to spare the blushes of the counter attack. No?

Exactly, it's because of those two CB's it's more important in central midfield to establish balance rather than all physicality or all creativity/mobility.

If you leave all the vertical play to your wide players as has been done in the past, it becomes to predictable. It was allowed to happen with the traditional 4-4-2's of old because there wasn't as much congestion in the middle third. But now that almost everyone plays with a three-man central midfield, there's less space to rely on wingers to move the ball vertically. With now having three attacking midfielders behind a striker, you cannot seclude them by having two less mobile "destroyers" centrally. There isn't enough exploitation of space because it's entirely too predictable, and therefore easy to shut down, passes to the attacking players. It's too layered, with not enough vertical interaction through the middle and therefore not enough balance.

Those old systems in which it was proven are not as relevant in the modern game. Look around the other successful clubs of Europe, and you'll note not one plays with two large destroyer type holding mids. The game has changed into a much swifter, more technical format. It is all the more relevant to us because of the stacked boxes we face at the narrow Lane because if you have such a midfield, you don't have a player to move the ball forward from deep and to get the ball to the forward players before the opposition can shut down the obvious supply routes. It's simple economics, as you have three sources of fast, forward, transitional passing rather than only two. Thus, your attacking mids have considerably more space to turn into and work with when the ball arrives at their feet. You're right that it's better to have two "holding mids" to allow the wide players more assurance in getting forward, but the key idea for balance is to have that more dynamic, forward passer also contribute in defense. Therefore there is no disadvantage, but yet more advantage.
 
Wingbacks , Walker needs to get forward only when the forward play has developed. Not bomb ahead and be in a position where others are playing catch up? Simple.
Today's football sucess is to be filexable, as a team , as a player not holding ridged to your position. Two defensive mid/fld players can play together if they do what they are told.
Again- agree. It is easy if everyone is told what to do. If I am told by my boss to make a cup of tea, I do it. Cos she gets paid to say that (although she has had some fishy tasting cuppas). If I was Ade & was told to play in goal, I would. It's not cunt licking. It is reality. & if I didn't like licking cunt then I'd go lick an arse somewhere else if I had to . Back to the point tho...these players need to grab a sense of the real world.
 
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Times have changed though my friend, the key is to have two players capable of getting stuck in, while also having one player to couple the sitting destroyer who can quickly flip the field and transition to attack. The game is just far too quick these days, and especially in the Prem against the top sides, to have two sizable destroyers. Frankly, having two similar players at all isn't a good idea. Even worse than having two destroyers was having two of the pacier creative type, such as Eriksen and Holtby. Love each of those guys, but as soon as I saw the lineup my heart went right into my throat.

So to maintain two dimensional balance in this league, the best plan is to couple a destroyer with a more mobile, passing type. Too much similarity in either direction is not a good thing, and for us especially not duel destroyers because it will limit our effeciency in unlocking stacked boxes so often used against us on the narrow pitch at the Lane.

100% agree!! Don't understand how more people don't realise that this is our biggest problem. People say we lost our playing style when Harry was sacked. It wasn't, it was when modric was sold. Who is undoubtedly the best deep lying playmaker in the world. We still haven't replaced him, having 2 "destroyers" will just cause us to play more side to side football that everyone moans about. It's not even as if we have a problem winning the ball back, we normally dominate possession. The problems when we do have it!
 
Exactly, it's because of those two CB's it's more important in central midfield to establish balance rather than all physicality or all creativity/mobility.

If you leave all the vertical play to your wide players as has been done in the past, it becomes to predictable. It was allowed to happen with the traditional 4-4-2's of old because there wasn't as much congestion in the middle third. But now that almost everyone plays with a three-man central midfield, there's less space to rely on wingers to move the ball vertically. With now having three attacking midfielders behind a striker, you cannot seclude them by having two less mobile "destroyers" centrally. There isn't enough exploitation of space because it's entirely too predictable, and therefore easy to shut down, passes to the attacking players. It's too layered, with not enough vertical interaction through the middle and therefore not enough balance.

Those old systems in which it was proven are not as relevant in the modern game. Look around the other successful clubs of Europe, and you'll note not one plays with two large destroyer type holding mids. The game has changed into a much swifter, more technical format. It is all the more relevant to us because of the stacked boxes we face at the narrow Lane because if you have such a midfield, you don't have a player to move the ball forward from deep and to get the ball to the forward players before the opposition can shut down the obvious supply routes. It's simple economics, as you have three sources of fast, forward, transitional passing rather than only two. Thus, your attacking mids have considerably more space to turn into and work with when the ball arrives at their feet. You're right that it's better to have two "holding mids" to allow the wide players more assurance in getting forward, but the key idea for balance is to have that more dynamic, forward passer also contribute in defense. Therefore there is no disadvantage, but yet more advantage.
That is the longest coaching session ever. But... I have watched the Prem since it began (& spurs for many years before that) & you are wrong in many ways mate. I am not even going to dissect your diatribe Gibbsy style. I probably wouldn't have enough life left. You are a very knowledgable poster with some great & witty postings. But the history of the EPL would respectfully suggest that you are off the mark on this one. Every team that has won the Prem has had a combative & opponent dismantling midfield. Not one lad stood in front of his back four hoping nobody fucks up
 
That is the longest coaching session ever. But... I have watched the Prem since it began (& spurs for many years before that) & you are wrong in many ways mate. I am not even going to dissect your diatribe Gibbsy style. I probably wouldn't have enough life left. You are a very knowledgable poster with some great & witty postings. But the history of the EPL would respectfully suggest that you are off the mark on this one. Every team that has won the Prem has had a combative & opponent dismantling midfield. Not one lad stood in front of his back four hoping nobody fucks up

I think rather it more likely I'm just not conveying my point adequately. Just to be brief, I'm not saying having two "combative type dismantlers" is a bad thing, nor am I debating its success in the past. But the modern game has changed immensely, and especially the Prem. You can have two strong-tackling players capable of breaking up play without them both being similar "destroyers." For instance, were everyone fit and ready to go, I'd have loved to see tomorrow's lineup be Capoue and Bentaleb. Both very able in breaking up play and putting a tackle on anyone, but one is far more mobile and adept in getting forward to exploit space via quick transition (Bentaleb), while the other prefers to sit and shield his back line to play the classical "No 6" position (Capoue). Capoue and Sandro are each fantastic players, but they're both of the same ilk, this latter player.

Sorry if my explanation sucks, but does that make it a bit clearer?
 
100% agree!! Don't understand how more people don't realise that this is our biggest problem. People say we lost our playing style when Harry was sacked. It wasn't, it was when modric was sold. Who is undoubtedly the best deep lying playmaker in the world. We still haven't replaced him, having 2 "destroyers" will just cause us to play more side to side football that everyone moans about. It's not even as if we have a problem winning the ball back, we normally dominate possession. The problems when we do have it!

Exactly. Our forward passing count of the last two seasons has been embarrassing to say the least. Tied for lowest in the league in total through-balls, and lowest per game with 1, and yet some believe we should further eliminate our balance and mobility by placing more conservative options in midfield. That's symmetry, not balance.
 
I think rather it more likely I'm just not conveying my point adequately. Just to be brief, I'm not saying having two "combative type dismantlers" is a bad thing, nor am I debating its success in the past. But the modern game has changed immensely, and especially the Prem. You can have two strong-tackling players capable of breaking up play without them both being similar "destroyers." For instance, were everyone fit and ready to go, I'd have loved to see tomorrow's lineup be Capoue and Bentaleb. Both very able in breaking up play and putting a tackle on anyone, but one is far more mobile and adept in getting forward to exploit space via quick transition (Bentaleb), while the other prefers to sit and shield his back line to play the classical "No 6" position (Capoue). Capoue and Sandro are each fantastic players, but they're both of the same ilk, this latter player.

Sorry if my explanation sucks, but does that make it a bit clearer?
Not really mate. Can you tell me the last time a team won the EPL without 2 midfield destroyers? I can't remember a time when the EPL was won without a defence that wasn't completely confident to push on & create chances, knowing they weren't reliant on Danny Rose & a sweeper keeper to mop up
 
Not really mate. Can you tell me the last time a team won the EPL without 2 midfield destroyers? I can't remember a time when the EPL was won without a defence that wasn't completely confident to push on & create chances, knowing they weren't reliant on Danny Rose & a sweeper keeper to mop up

Let me ask you this, how do you define "destroyer?"
 
Let me ask you this, how do you define "destroyer?"
Simple. A player who sits in front of his defence. Who let's them disturb the opposition by playing good football out of defence. A player who will see everything in front of him & know what is happening on each wing going forward & backwards. Put 2 of them muthafuckers in your team, add some very quick fullbacks & a spearhead of attacking flair in the last third- you have a great team. Easier said than done but if you can name an EPL winning team without 2 destroyers, I'm all ears about the future of the EPL.
 
Not really mate. Can you tell me the last time a team won the EPL without 2 midfield destroyers? I can't remember a time when the EPL was won without a defence that wasn't completely confident to push on & create chances, knowing they weren't reliant on Danny Rose & a sweeper keeper to mop up

Viera and Keane weren't just destroyers tho. Both were great; leaders ( another thing we are missing ) passers and both got forward and scored goals. Our Parker / Modric pivot worked so well due to both being capable at getting the ball back, Parker being the slightly more rough and tumble, whilst modric's touch, flare and vision was able to push the ball on and find our more attack minded players quickly. They complimented each other beutifully. You don't need to have 2 destroyers when you have the ball. It never really gets mentioned, but in the few games, and I know it's friendlies, but Van der vaart looked a ghost of himself without modric. I think we would really see much more from our more advanced players if we had someone who could spot, and anticipate the clever moves and positions they take up. In recent times we have seen the likes of eriksen / holtby and even Ade drop so deep at times to try and affect play, thus negating our attacks no matter how much you push the fullbacks up the field.
 
Simple. A player who sits in front of his defence. Who let's them disturb the opposition by playing good football out of defence. A player who will see everything in front of him & know what is happening on each wing going forward & backwards. Put 2 of them muthafuckers in your team, add some very quick fullbacks & a spearhead of attacking flair in the last third- you have a great team. Easier said than done but if you can name an EPL winning team without 2 destroyers, I'm all ears about the future of the EPL.

See that explains it, the definitions were different. I was referring to large, sitting, relatively immobile players who focus on breaking up play rather than dispersing the ball. Because according to that definition, Man U have not had two "destroyers" sitting in central midfield in quite some time, and they've won quite a few championships of late despite last season. City also did not feature such a setup last year, or three years ago. Toure is a big fella, but he is not a "destroyer." He is an extremely well-rounded box to box type CM.
 
Viera and Keane weren't just destroyers tho. Both were great; leaders ( another thing we are missing ) passers and both got forward and scored goals. Our Parker / Modric pivot worked so well due to both being capable at getting the ball back, Parker being the slightly more rough and tumble, whilst modric's touch, flare and vision was able to push the ball on and find our more attack minded players quickly. They complimented each other beutifully. You don't need to have 2 destroyers when you have the ball. It never really gets mentioned, but in the few games, and I know it's friendlies, but Van der vaart looked a ghost of himself without modric. I think we would really see much more from our more advanced players if we had someone who could spot, and anticipate the clever moves and positions they take up. In recent times we have seen the likes of eriksen / holtby and even Ade drop so deep at times to try and affect play, thus negating our attacks no matter how much you push the fullbacks up the field.

It is very true that CAM's are less effective without a mobile passer from deep. This is exactly why Sherwood pushed Eriksen out wide, as continuing to keep him central without a passer from deep (he himself pointed this out that we lacked such a player later) essentially choked him out of the play and made him entirely inept in being a launchpad for the attack. Look at how much more integrated Eriksen and Lamela have been now that Poch has been playing with such a mobile, dynamic passer in the form of Holtby or Mason. They have gobs of space to work with. Sure you have less physicality centrally, but if you have a player such as Holtby who is still capable in the tackle but can pin the opposition back with quick, creative, and incisive passing, you don't necessarily need to have as much physicality.
 
Viera and Keane weren't just destroyers tho. Both were great; leaders ( another thing we are missing ) passers and both got forward and scored goals. Our Parker / Modric pivot worked so well due to both being capable at getting the ball back, Parker being the slightly more rough and tumble, whilst modric's touch, flare and vision was able to push the ball on and find our more attack minded players quickly. They complimented each other beutifully. You don't need to have 2 destroyers when you have the ball. It never really gets mentioned, but in the few games, and I know it's friendlies, but Van der vaart looked a ghost of himself without modric. I think we would really see much more from our more advanced players if we had someone who could spot, and anticipate the clever moves and positions they take up. In recent times we have seen the likes of eriksen / holtby and even Ade drop so deep at times to try and affect play, thus negating our attacks no matter how much you push the fullbacks up the field.
They weren't just destroyers. I totally agree. They were creative too, but primarily destroyers in a well oiled machine that won things. Their primary role was to shore up a defence while others bombed onwards. Then join the attack because people were shit terrified of them. & if the attack broke down- get the ball back, redistribute it & wait again whilst looking menacing. That's how I always viewed them cunts. Horrible shits but would have wanted them in my team just cos they were horrible shits I wouldn't want to play against
 
It is very true that CAM's are less effective without a mobile passer from deep. This is exactly why Sherwood pushed Eriksen out wide, as continuing to keep him central without a passer from deep (he himself pointed this out that we lacked such a player later) essentially choked him out of the play and made him entirely inept in being a launchpad for the attack. Look at how much more integrated Eriksen and Lamela have been now that Poch has been playing with such a mobile, dynamic passer in the form of Holtby or Mason. They have gobs of space to work with. Sure you have less physicality centrally, but if you have a player such as Holtby who is still capable in the tackle but can pin the opposition back with quick, creative, and incisive passing, you don't necessarily need to have as much physicality.


I really think the only way Holtby will ever establish himself properly within the team, will be when partnered up next to a Capoue / Sandro style player. As you've said, he tackles hard, he already works so hard. He just needs to become slightly more tactically aware, and refine his ability at keeping hold of the ball when he's needed. He would be my vote to play alongside Capoue today/ tomorrow if both fit? Tho in a dream world we would sign someone like pjanic who is already a very decent playmaker from deep haha!
 
See that explains it, the definitions were different. I was referring to large, sitting, relatively immobile players who focus on breaking up play rather than dispersing the ball. Because according to that definition, Man U have not had two "destroyers" sitting in central midfield in quite some time, and they've won quite a few championships of late despite last season. City also did not feature such a setup last year, or three years ago. Toure is a big fella, but he is not a "destroyer." He is an extremely well-rounded box to box type CM.
Toure is the ultimate destroyer. Devastating all over the pitch in attack & defence- with an immense engine (& cock so I hear) . We will have to agree to disagree mate on this one. Anyways- in 12 hours our season will be up n running. COYS
 
They weren't just destroyers. I totally agree. They were creative too, but primarily destroyers in a well oiled machine that won things. Their primary role was to shore up a defence while others bombed onwards. Then join the attack because people were shit terrified of them. & if the attack broke down- get the ball back, redistribute it & wait again whilst looking menacing. That's how I always viewed them cunts. Horrible shits but would have wanted them in my team just cos they were horrible shits I wouldn't want to play against


Haha I just miss the days of watching the modric / Parker pairing totally control and dominate other teams. I used to find myself trying to force my girlfriend into watching it, and then getting annoyed when she didn't apreicate how well we used to keep the ball in almost any situation. In recent seasons I'm almost embarrassed when I watch us struggle to reliably break into the final 3rd, and reliably keep the ball :adestare::dawsonmean:
 
Toure is the ultimate destroyer. Devastating all over the pitch in attack & defence- with an immense engine (& cock so I hear) . We will have to agree to disagree mate on this one. Anyways- in 12 hours our season will be up n running. COYS

Toure is the complete and utter bollocks. IMO, the best footballer on the planet at this moment.

But yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree on our definitions of him and the position. Who hey who gives a fuck, COYS.
 
Haha I just miss the days of watching the modric / Parker pairing totally control and dominate other teams. I used to find myself trying to force my girlfriend into watching it, and then getting annoyed when she didn't apreicate how well we used to keep the ball in almost any situation. In recent seasons I'm almost embarrassed when I watch us struggle to reliably break into the final 3rd, and reliably keep the ball :adestare::dawsonmean:
Them good old days eh . They are coming back. Starting with 3 points today. If not, my spam next door neighbour is getting every single cat poo his moggy has dumped on my lawn in the past 6 months on his convertible jag roof. I've been saving them for a special occasion.
 
Toure is the complete and utter bollocks. IMO, the best footballer on the planet at this moment.

But yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree on our definitions of him and the position. Who hey who gives a fuck, COYS.
He is the bollocks - best on the planet? Not so certain. But you can say for certain.... Put Kompany behind Toure & you have an iron core to your outfield. You could put me in goal, Clashy left back (deliberate inoffensive joke) Cahspur up the middle, Gibbsy , Arcpace& Sammy to argue about who took the kick off (& who was allowed first bite at Cahspurs last post) & any combination of forum tossers to make up the rabble-& we would still win the odd game
 
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He is the bollocks - best on the planet? Not so certain. But you can say for certain.... Put Kompany behind Toure & you have an iron core to your outfield. You could put me in goal, Clashy left back (deliberate inoffensive joke) Cahspur up the middle, Gibbsy , Arcpace& Sammy to argue about who took the kick off & any combination of forum tossers to make up the rabble-& we would still win the odd game

I would be damned before I let Gibbs take that kickoff :adegrin:
 
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