Paulinho

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So which of our centermidfielders has accounted for more than the seven goals he's scored and two he's assisted? If, as folks say, he hasn't shown "enough" then who has? Barring Eriksen, who I'd consider more of an attacker than CM anyway, none of them. It isn't in Paulinho's game to be creative, so I don't get why that's everyone's major complaint about him. It isn't in Dembele's or Sandro's or Capoue's game to pick a pass either, but I rarely see anyone calling them out on it. Hell, I most often see folks complaining that Dembele doesn't offer enough goals... well, in the context of our crap season, I'd say Paulinho has certainly offered more than enough of those. None of these guys are complete midfielders, so it's about time we stop expecting them to be. If we had someone at the helm who knew what they were doing tactically, these guys would be playing as a brilliant unit instead of individuals who've simply been asked to do too much outside of their comfort zones.

He came to us as a goal scoring CM, and so far this season he's the only CM who has somewhat lived up to what he's been billed as (though I would defend Capoue as, per the Tottenham way, he hasn't had the best chances to show what he can do due to injury). Paulinho and the rest of the gang will be fine when we get a manager in here that can find the right balance between the different kinds of talent we have in the center of the pitch.

First off, I harp on the rest of the central midfielders more than plenty. I actually target Dembele in particular because I find his mental block upon arriving in the attacking third very frustrating. Does so well to move the ball up to an attacking position, and then sees the opposing back line and goes horizontal. So no, I'm not targeting Paulinho specifically. This consequently also answers your question asking who has contributed. My answer is no one in particular from the two CM slots, and this is why I think we need to drastically change tactics next season including the removal of the high back line, need a dynamic playmaker to integrate the team, and get our CDM's healthy enough to fulfill their role for extended periods of time.

Second, I don't base my assessment of players off of statistics. While it's often helpful, it can also easily lead an opinion astray as they don't often tell the entire picture. For instance, yes, Paulinho has scored a few vital goals for us. But he's also had an absolute plethora of easy chances that he's wanked on. Some of those missed opportunities were inexcusable.

But if we leave stats aside, it is simply my assessment of his on field contribution that he just doesn't offer much. I view him as highly overrated and nowhere close to worth 17 mil GBP. Believe you me, I've held such an opinion since well before it became "trendy" to bash on the player. He just quite frankly doesn't offer much in the middle in terms of team dynamics, including possession. You're right that creativity isn't primarily his responsibility, but as a BTB type of CM he should be offering far more in creating and looking for lanes with the ball on the ground to get himself and teammates into good positions. Ditching it out wide and running into the box is useful, but he has nothing else in his bag of tricks to make defenders think and stay on their heels. So no, I don't think a new manager would do much difference for him. For several others I believe so, but not Paulinho.
 
We would have been better off buying a CM who could really pass from deep this summer than Paulinho. However, if Paulinho ups his game and maintains consistency he could be a really quality player for us. He has shown promising flashes. Needs to hit the target more consistenly as you can see he loves making the late arriving run into the box. If he becomes really threatening from there, watch out.

My only concern is balancing him and Dembele as they have looked exceedingly poor playing together. Maybe it's a sample size thing or just working to build an understanding deal but it's an issue that needs to be solved or balanced by our next manager.
 
I think it's hilarious that people crucify him for his goalscoring when he is a deeper laying midfielder, yet he turns up in the box often and has managed 7 goals and 2 assists this season in 30 games.

Sure he's whacked the woodwork a bit, but he's a midfielder. He's still creating something every 1 in 3 games... About the same as Defoe or Pav and better than Soldado.

"Oh but he can't pass"...

So we point out Stoke, or Palace or Cardiff...

"Yeah but he doesn't do it often enough"

Spurs fans can be pricks, honestly. In a first season where Lamela hasn't featured at all, Soldado can't buy a goal and Capoue has contributed sweet FA, everyone leathers Pailinho, who let's not forget, wasn't even playing European football, let alone EPL and has been one of our best contributors, even from DM.

#fickle
 
What shapes denote what? X/+/^? Red lines are?
Red lines are missed passes. Light blue is key passes (leading to goal-scoring opp). Green ^ are aerial duels, x are tackles, stars are dribbles, circles are clearances, +s are recovered balls, and diamonds are interceptions. Green for success, orange for failure. White and black triangles are for fouls suffered and committed, respectively.
 
91% pass completion against Fulham... Admittedly mostly in Jenas directions. However:

"Paulinho left few blades of grass uncovered as he chased Fulham around the pitch, a one-man pressing machine that captured possession for Spurs in a number of dangerous areas. The Brazilian was successful with five of his eight tackles, the most by any player from either side, and won three in the opposition half.

Paulinho also made three interceptions, three clearances and won both of his headed duels. Allied to the goal he nabbed, this was the kind of consummate midfield display that Spurs thought they would be getting regularly when they plucked him from Corinthians.



Paulinho’s pass map against Fulham.

Full report here:
http://www.squawka.com/news/2014/04/21/paulinho/2014042199666
 
I'm not one of those who 'leathers' Paulinho, 'criticises him as useless', etc. So not everybody does this. Indeed as I've pointed out I think he's outperformed Sandro and Dembele. Unfortunately that's not the greatest endorsement in the world considering the low levels of achievement attained by those two.

Paulinho has done enough to deserve a starting place, unlike the other two of late, despite many who think Sandro should be a 'regular' starter.
 
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First off, I harp on the rest of the central midfielders more than plenty. I actually target Dembele in particular because I find his mental block upon arriving in the attacking third very frustrating. Does so well to move the ball up to an attacking position, and then sees the opposing back line and goes horizontal. So no, I'm not targeting Paulinho specifically. This consequently also answers your question asking who has contributed. My answer is no one in particular from the two CM slots, and this is why I think we need to drastically change tactics next season including the removal of the high back line, need a dynamic playmaker to integrate the team, and get our CDM's healthy enough to fulfill their role for extended periods of time.

Second, I don't base my assessment of players off of statistics. While it's often helpful, it can also easily lead an opinion astray as they don't often tell the entire picture. For instance, yes, Paulinho has scored a few vital goals for us. But he's also had an absolute plethora of easy chances that he's wanked on. Some of those missed opportunities were inexcusable.

But if we leave stats aside, it is simply my assessment of his on field contribution that he just doesn't offer much. I view him as highly overrated and nowhere close to worth 17 mil GBP. Believe you me, I've held such an opinion since well before it became "trendy" to bash on the player. He just quite frankly doesn't offer much in the middle in terms of team dynamics, including possession. You're right that creativity isn't primarily his responsibility, but as a BTB type of CM he should be offering far more in creating and looking for lanes with the ball on the ground to get himself and teammates into good positions. Ditching it out wide and running into the box is useful, but he has nothing else in his bag of tricks to make defenders think and stay on their heels. So no, I don't think a new manager would do much difference for him. For several others I believe so, but not Paulinho.

You mention tactics-- is it not possible that all his sideways passing is down to just that? I'm not saying he has ever appeared particularly creative, but you can't ignore the fact that Sherwood's side has taken a page out of the old Redknapp wingplay book--so much so that we've taken our best central attacker and thrown him out onto the wing to create from out wide. Maybe Paulinho and Dembele's biggest issue this year has been that they haven't been allowed to do anything other than pass it outside to either Eriksen or one of our speedsters.

We haven't seen the best of Paulinho, yet he's still managed to be our most productive central player. I don't understand how you can ignore his goals as meaningless stats when his ability to put them in the back of the net is why we bought him in the first place. Again, he's the only central player who has lived up to what he's been billed as. He's no Defoe... he's had as many shots as he has because he's consistently found himself in the best positions, not because he's selfish and takes wild shots. Sure, he's missed a couple of sitters but that's hardly unforgivable-- we're still behind Soldado, aren't we? Just seems to me you want Paulinho to be something he isn't, and shouldn't have to be, when he's turned out to be fairly decent at what we've needed the most from our players this year in putting them into the net. I know you're just going to disagree, but I stick by my statement; with a more tactically adept manager who can figure out the right balance in midfield, Paulinho will be an extremely productive player for us.
 
Red lines are missed passes. Light blue is key passes (leading to goal-scoring opp). Green ^ are aerial duels, x are tackles, stars are dribbles, circles are clearances, +s are recovered balls, and diamonds are interceptions. Green for success, orange for failure. White and black triangles are for fouls suffered and committed, respectively.

Just noticed your explanation of this on pg 67... my bad for making you repeat it.

and good stuff. Wish more folks would take a look at tables like this and accept that he's a pretty decent player.
 
You mention tactics-- is it not possible that all his sideways passing is down to just that? I'm not saying he has ever appeared particularly creative, but you can't ignore the fact that Sherwood's side has taken a page out of the old Redknapp wingplay book--so much so that we've taken our best central attacker and thrown him out onto the wing to create from out wide. Maybe Paulinho and Dembele's biggest issue this year has been that they haven't been allowed to do anything other than pass it outside to either Eriksen or one of our speedsters.

You honestly believe it's more likely that two managers, much less a single one, instructed a central midfielder not to look forward and move the ball into the box than one player simply hasn't shown particularly dynamic play that sets him apart? I'm not saying he's shit mate, I'm saying there's just nothing that makes him unique. He's an average midfielder that plays far too safe for me and doesn't have any traits that make him flash. Footwork, no. Incisiveness, no. Aggression, no. Athleticism, not particularly. Shooting, fuck no.

I don't understand how you can ignore his goals as meaningless stats

I never referred to them as "meaningless," in fact quite the contrary as the term I used was "clutch." There has never been a goal in the history of time that was meaningless. I also said that stats do not always tell the entire picture, which is true in almost anything in life and arguably more in football than most other categories.

Just seems to me you want Paulinho to be something he isn't, and shouldn't have to be, when he's turned out to be fairly decent at what we've needed the most from our players this year in putting them into the net.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect a BTB style player, a volante as he's referred to in his native language (which means "steering wheel" specifically), to look to move the ball vertically and with aggression through the box. Such a responsibility is within the very fundamental purpose of his role and subsequently part of why we spent so much on him.

I know you're just going to disagree, but I stick by my statement; with a more tactically adept manager who can figure out the right balance in midfield, Paulinho will be an extremely productive player for us.

Mayhaps. But from what I've seen, I don't expect so. There are midfielders in Europe that would be far more suitable to our squad needs for far cheaper, so if we could get our money back from Roma per se (especially if Man U and LvG pursue Strootman as I suspect), I'd snap at it to bring in a better option with money left over for other additions.
 
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You honestly believe it's more likely that two managers, much less a single one, instructed a central midfielder not to look forward and move the ball into the box than one player simply hasn't shown particularly dynamic play that sets him apart? I'm not saying he's shit mate, I'm saying there's just nothing that makes him unique. He's an average midfielder that plays far too safe for me and doesn't have any traits that make him flash. Footwork, no. Incisiveness, no. Aggression, no. Athleticism, not particularly. Shooting, fuck no..

I believe it's entirely possible that two managers have been iffy on what they see as moving the ball forward, as both have clearly tried to push forward through our wingers rather than playing through the middle. Our two deeper central players have done exactly what it seems they've been instructed to do all season-- attempt to break up play, then pass it out wide to either Lennon (Townsend earlier in the season) and Eriksen. That has especially been the case in the past couple of games, as Lennon and Eriksen have very obviously been the focal points of our attacks. I may be wrong, but wasn't there an interview with dembele earlier this year in which he pretty much said he felt a little stifled by AVB in the sense that he didn't have much licence to move forward?

What do you mean nothing unique? The guy scores goals... that's unique for our entire squad, let alone just midfielders. You can't just say "stats aren't important" and then go on to say every goal counts, seems a bit contradictory to me.

Athleticism? He's a great header of the ball, a good jumper. Aggression? Maybe not, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's a role he should have to play-- though, according to several game charts I've seen posted on this thread, he appears to be quite fine defensively. As far as shooting goes, yeah he's missed a few sitters but none of them have been any worse than Soldado's-- would you go so far as to say he's a terrible shooter of the ball as well? This year for us, yes... throughout his career? Absolutely not. Neither of them (nor anyone in the squad, really) has been in the best form this year, but to say they're average players is totally unfair.

As someone posted earlier today, Pauli is a guy who's adjusting from playing football in South America to playing football in the EPL... that's quite a leap, and for him to have been able to show goalscoring promise like he has is, in my opinion, good reason to be excited to see what he can do with a full season under his belt. Maybe he isn't as athletic as dembele or as aggressive as Sandro or as tricky and creative as Eriksen, but he certainly plays an important role in the squad in that he seems pretty tactically aware in the box-- he has a good sense for being in the right place at the right time. He's squandered a few chances, but next year those could just as easily go in for him... then he's a 15 goal a year midfielder, something our squad will desperately need.
 
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I believe it's entirely possible that two managers have been iffy on what they see as moving the ball forward, as both have clearly tried to push forward through our wingers rather than playing through the middle. Our two deeper central players have done exactly what it seems they've been instructed to do all season-- attempt to break up play, then pass it out wide to either Lennon (Townsend earlier in the season) and Eriksen. That has especially been the case in the past couple of games, as Lennon and Eriksen have very obviously been the focal points of our attacks. I may be wrong, but wasn't there an interview with dembele earlier this year in which he pretty much said he felt a little stifled by AVB in the sense that he didn't have much licence to move forward?

What do you mean nothing unique? The guy scores goals... that's unique for our entire squad, let alone just midfielders. You can't just say "stats aren't important" and then go on to say every goal counts, seems a bit contradictory to me.

Athleticism? He's a great header of the ball, a good jumper. Aggression? Maybe not, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's a role he should have to play-- though, according to several game charts I've seen posted on this thread, he appears to be quite fine defensively. As far as shooting goes, yeah he's missed a few sitters but none of them have been any worse than Soldado's-- would you go so far as to say he's a terrible shooter of the ball as well? This year for us, yes... throughout his career? Absolutely not. Neither of them (nor anyone in the squad, really) has been in the best form this year, but to say they're average players is totally unfair.

As someone posted earlier today, Pauli is a guy who's adjusting from playing football in South America to playing football in the EPL... that's quite a leap, and for him to have been able to show goalscoring promise like he has is, in my opinion, good reason to be excited to see what he can do with a full season under his belt. Maybe he isn't as athletic as dembele or as aggressive as Sandro or as tricky and creative as Eriksen, but he certainly plays an important role in the squad in that he seems pretty tactically aware in the box-- he has a good sense for being in the right place at the right time. He's squandered a few chances, but next year those could just as easily go in for him... then he's a 15 goal a year midfielder, something our squad will desperately need.

Alright amigo, I'm not sure I can emphasize this enough: there has never, ever, fuckin EVER in the history of this sport been a coach that instructed his players to pass horizontally at the expense of looking forward, and especially not to the extent that we have this season. You're absolutely right that such a thing is precisely what our players have done, on that I cannot agree with you enough. But I can assure you it is not because of managerial instruction, regardless of how clueless you or anyone believes Sherwood to be. Dembele did indeed say such a thing in a press conference, but he went on to point out that their tactical instruction was not enough about them and far more so about how to counter opponent strategies. No manager in their right mind, especially at this level, instructs his central midfielders to prioritize the horizontal. No one.

On the stat topic, I must ask you to stop placing words I did not say in quotations and attributing them to me. I didn't say stats are "not important," I said verbatim that they "do not tell the whole story." Such intended meanings are not even remotely close, even in the usage of a paraphrase. Therefore, there is nothing contradictory in my statement. Paulinho's goals are indeed a very meaningful contribution, but as for the technicalities of his play specifically, he offers nothing particular or unique. I repeat and emphasize again that I do not believe he is not a poor midfielder per se, but that he is also not one that we should've spent 17 mil GBP on.

Lots of players at this level can jump high and head the ball well, but that does not necessarily mean they have notable athleticism. Once again, didn't say he's shit at anything except shooting, just that he doesn't stand out. And yes, his shooting ability is appalling for a BTB midfielder. He shouldn't have to be particularly aggressive? You want a BTB central midfielder that isn't aggressive? Oy vey, there is hardly a trait I could want more in a player I expect to be tasked with linking up play and running the full extent of the pitch. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the volante position he plays for Brazil.

Coming from South America cannot be seen as an overarching excuse. If it were so, I can assure you no one would pay 17 mil for such a player and put him right into the first team. Such business would be madness. So while it is a clear obstacle and does occasionally affect players, it cannot however be used as a method of excusing a player from the continent every time they have a poor rookie season. Each player deserves their own basis for assessment. We have had plenty of exposure to Paulinho, and it is apparent to me that he does not contribute much to team dynamics. He is a passenger far too often who contributes almost nothing to build-up play. This is not good enough from a BTB midfielder, who should be an absolutely integral component of such a component to our play.
 
I believe it's entirely possible that two managers have been iffy on what they see as moving the ball forward, as both have clearly tried to push forward through our wingers rather than playing through the middle. Our two deeper central players have done exactly what it seems they've been instructed to do all season-- attempt to break up play, then pass it out wide to either Lennon (Townsend earlier in the season) and Eriksen. That has especially been the case in the past couple of games, as Lennon and Eriksen have very obviously been the focal points of our attacks. I may be wrong, but wasn't there an interview with dembele earlier this year in which he pretty much said he felt a little stifled by AVB in the sense that he didn't have much licence to move forward?

What do you mean nothing unique? The guy scores goals... that's unique for our entire squad, let alone just midfielders. You can't just say "stats aren't important" and then go on to say every goal counts, seems a bit contradictory to me.

Athleticism? He's a great header of the ball, a good jumper. Aggression? Maybe not, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's a role he should have to play-- though, according to several game charts I've seen posted on this thread, he appears to be quite fine defensively. As far as shooting goes, yeah he's missed a few sitters but none of them have been any worse than Soldado's-- would you go so far as to say he's a terrible shooter of the ball as well? This year for us, yes... throughout his career? Absolutely not. Neither of them (nor anyone in the squad, really) has been in the best form this year, but to say they're average players is totally unfair.

As someone posted earlier today, Pauli is a guy who's adjusting from playing football in South America to playing football in the EPL... that's quite a leap, and for him to have been able to show goalscoring promise like he has is, in my opinion, good reason to be excited to see what he can do with a full season under his belt. Maybe he isn't as athletic as dembele or as aggressive as Sandro or as tricky and creative as Eriksen, but he certainly plays an important role in the squad in that he seems pretty tactically aware in the box-- he has a good sense for being in the right place at the right time. He's squandered a few chances, but next year those could just as easily go in for him... then he's a 15 goal a year midfielder, something our squad will desperately need.

Alright amigo, I'm not sure I can emphasize this enough: there has never, ever, fuckin EVER in the history of this sport been a coach that instructed his players to pass horizontally at the expense of looking forward, and especially not to the extent that we have this season. You're absolutely right that such a thing is precisely what our players have done, on that I cannot agree with you enough. But I can assure you it is not because of managerial instruction, regardless of how clueless you or anyone believes Sherwood to be. Dembele did indeed say such a thing in a press conference, but he went on to point out that their tactical instruction was not enough about them and far more so about how to counter opponent strategies. No manager in their right mind, especially at this level, instructs his central midfielders to prioritize the horizontal. No one.

On the stat topic, I must ask you to stop placing words I did not say in quotations and attributing them to me. I didn't say stats are "not important," I said verbatim that they "do not tell the whole story." Such intended meanings are not even remotely close, even in the usage of a paraphrase. Therefore, there is nothing contradictory in my statement. Paulinho's goals are indeed a very meaningful contribution, but as for the technicalities of his play specifically, he offers nothing particular or unique. I repeat and emphasize again that I do not believe he is not a poor midfielder per se, but that he is also not one that we should've spent 17 mil GBP on.

Lots of players at this level can jump high and head the ball well, but that does not necessarily mean they have notable athleticism. Once again, didn't say he's shit at anything except shooting, just that he doesn't stand out. And yes, his shooting ability is appalling for a BTB midfielder. He shouldn't have to be particularly aggressive? You want a BTB central midfielder that isn't aggressive? Oy vey, there is hardly a trait I could want more in a player I expect to be tasked with linking up play and running the full extent of the pitch. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the volante position he plays for Brazil.

Coming from South America cannot be seen as an overarching excuse. If it were so, I can assure you no one would pay 17 mil for such a player and put him right into the first team. Such business would be madness. So while it is a clear obstacle and does occasionally affect players, it cannot however be used as a method of excusing a player from the continent every time they have a poor rookie season. Each player deserves their own basis for assessment. We have had plenty of exposure to Paulinho, and it is apparent to me that he does not contribute much to team dynamics. He is a passenger far too often who contributes almost nothing to build-up play. This is not good enough from a BTB midfielder, who should be an absolutely integral component of such a component to our play.

I think that Paulinho has had a relatively good season. All in all there have been no real problems. He passes accurately, albeit rarely in the correct direction, and he gets himself into fairly good positions. He is adapting pretty well to playing in England. He would be a fine player to have on the squad next year. Here's the huge caveat: I shouldn't have to remind you that this is a World Cup year. Players go for copiously exaggerated amounts of money after they play well in World Cup's. There is a very good chance Brazil wins the WC and Paulinho's value skyrockets. His value will be much higher than his actual worth. If Brazil wins I think we could easily get £20 million for him. That's MUCH more than his actual value. Which will almost be guaranteed to drop if we keep him for an extra season.

He's a good player. I don't dislike him. But we're not talking about the next coming of Maradona. We can replace him, and turn a profit at the same time.

BTW, he's probably going to have a good year next year, but the chances of us being able to get the amount of money next summer as we could get for him this summer is very very low.
 
ExfBzB2.jpg

Alright amigo, I'm not sure I can emphasize this enough: there has never, ever, fuckin EVER in the history of this sport been a coach that instructed his players to pass horizontally at the expense of looking forward, and especially not to the extent that we have this season. You're absolutely right that such a thing is precisely what our players have done, on that I cannot agree with you enough. But I can assure you it is not because of managerial instruction, regardless of how clueless you or anyone believes Sherwood to be. Dembele did indeed say such a thing in a press conference, but he went on to point out that their tactical instruction was not enough about them and far more so about how to counter opponent strategies. No manager in their right mind, especially at this level, instructs his central midfielders to prioritize the horizontal. No one.

On the stat topic, I must ask you to stop placing words I did not say in quotations and attributing them to me. I didn't say stats are "not important," I said verbatim that they "do not tell the whole story." Such intended meanings are not even remotely close, even in the usage of a paraphrase. Therefore, there is nothing contradictory in my statement. Paulinho's goals are indeed a very meaningful contribution, but as for the technicalities of his play specifically, he offers nothing particular or unique. I repeat and emphasize again that I do not believe he is not a poor midfielder per se, but that he is also not one that we should've spent 17 mil GBP on.

Lots of players at this level can jump high and head the ball well, but that does not necessarily mean they have notable athleticism. Once again, didn't say he's shit at anything except shooting, just that he doesn't stand out. And yes, his shooting ability is appalling for a BTB midfielder. He shouldn't have to be particularly aggressive? You want a BTB central midfielder that isn't aggressive? Oy vey, there is hardly a trait I could want more in a player I expect to be tasked with linking up play and running the full extent of the pitch. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the volante position he plays for Brazil.

Coming from South America cannot be seen as an overarching excuse. If it were so, I can assure you no one would pay 17 mil for such a player and put him right into the first team. Such business would be madness. So while it is a clear obstacle and does occasionally affect players, it cannot however be used as a method of excusing a player from the continent every time they have a poor rookie season. Each player deserves their own basis for assessment. We have had plenty of exposure to Paulinho, and it is apparent to me that he does not contribute much to team dynamics. He is a passenger far too often who contributes almost nothing to build-up play. This is not good enough from a BTB midfielder, who should be an absolutely integral component of such a component to our play.

See, the thing about it is you really, really can't assure me of anything unless you've been in the dressing room or training with Timmy and heard his gameplan. All we have to go on is that our players, for one reason or another, seem to refuse to play through the middle. I can be just as sure that no midfielder ever made it to the EPL, Brazilian national team, Belgian national team or French national team only passing sideways, so something has to give; these players didn't suddenly forget how to play the game they've been playing their entire lives over the course of one season. That, coupled with the fact that you can watch just about any game this season and see we prioritized going wide quite a lot of the time, leads me to believe there is some conflicting instruction somewhere along the line that is leaving our midfielders, many of whom were lauded as great players with amazing potential, confused and passing out wide more often than not. Again, I agree with you... they aren't the most creative lot around, but you absolutely cannot deny that playing it out the wings has been our go to all season. Forgive me if I choose to believe in the talent of the players over the talent of two underachieving managers.Though this portion of the argument is in no way worth pursuing, as all the either of us can provide is pure conjecture seeing as we aren't on the training ground day in and out, so we just don't know.

And again, I'll push his goalscoring prowess as more than unique enough for our squad. We have a +2 goal differential. Take away Paulinho's unique ability (amongst our midfielders) to put himself in the right positions to score and we're sitting negative. Negative. Who in our current squad possesses the ability to have put away 7 more goals if Pauli wasn't around? Dembele? Capoue? Sandro? Bentaleb? They're useful in their own right, but without Paulinho's ability to score our strike unit's collective inability to maintain form would be horribly exposed. I guess what I really don't understand is how you don't see his ability to score as unique in its own right.

Having the ability to outjump most opponents and being a decent header of the ball doesn't constitute as notable athleticism? You're kidding, right? You have an odd, rigid definition of athleticism.

I think Paulinho possesses all the aggressiveness he needs. To prove as such, I've quoted Eperons stat board for Paulinho's game against Fulham. I know they're just stats, so therefore they could never possibly be indicative of a players performance ever never ever (some words for your mouth), but seems to me like Paulinho does possess an ability to assert himself in different areas of the pitch. I believe if you look elsewhere in this thread someone mentions that he had the most successful tackles of any player for either team. That kind of performance is what Paulinho, on form, can bring to the table. If you're going to bash him for being out of form, fine... but don't say he isn't an above average talent. On more than one occasion this year he's proven he is more than capable of being a highly influential player. To go back to my original point, I think with a manager that knew how to balance our midfield properly (i.e. using a destroyer), Paulinho could focus more on getting himself into even more dangerous attacking positions and scoring a good 10-15 goals a season. Which, again, given our current strike force, is something I see as potentially crucial.

I was only assessing Paulinho. You've got constructive things to say, but you are highly mistaken if you think there wouldn't be any sort of difficult adjustment period that might affect form for a player jumping from South America to England to play with 6 other new signings. That he's performed as well as he has given the borderline laughable scenarios our club has been in this season, coupled with his all the nuances of his transition from one country to another (from language to style of football) is something I see as noteworthy. And, as I said, exciting. This is a player who, at times, has shown he has what it takes to dominate a match and score clutch goals-- one year of experience and growth in chemisty with his teammates, plus the very real possibility of a more accomplished manager, is 100% something to be excited about.
 
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I think that Paulinho has had a relatively good season. All in all there have been no real problems. He passes accurately, albeit rarely in the correct direction, and he gets himself into fairly good positions. He is adapting pretty well to playing in England. He would be a fine player to have on the squad next year. Here's the huge caveat: I shouldn't have to remind you that this is a World Cup year. Players go for copiously exaggerated amounts of money after they play well in World Cup's. There is a very good chance Brazil wins the WC and Paulinho's value skyrockets. His value will be much higher than his actual worth. If Brazil wins I think we could easily get £20 million for him. That's MUCH more than his actual value. Which will almost be guaranteed to drop if we keep him for an extra season.

He's a good player. I don't dislike him. But we're not talking about the next coming of Maradona. We can replace him, and turn a profit at the same time.

BTW, he's probably going to have a good year next year, but the chances of us being able to get the amount of money next summer as we could get for him this summer is very very low.

Sure, I definitely get that... the only problem I see with taking the potentially inflated sale is that I don't necessarily see us spending it wisely.

The board seems to have a way with these things..

:levyeyes:
 
I'm surprised to see people disappointed with Pauli or wanting to flip him.

In a season where very little seemed to gel, he was one of the few bright spots for me. His transition to the prem was only second in quality to Eriksen while our other big purchases have looked extremely out of place.

Sure, he's missed a couple of easy chances but his goals on the year far outweigh his gafs. Not to mention, he won a game early in the season for us and has been a rare positive during this campaign full of negatives.

It was alluded to earlier that we should wait and see what he can do with a full year of prem football behind him. I cannot agree more. This is a player we should all get behind as fans.
 
See, the thing about it is you really, really can't assure me of anything unless you've been in the dressing room or training with Timmy and heard his gameplan. All we have to go on is that our players, for one reason or another, seem to refuse to play through the middle. I can be just as sure that no midfielder ever made it to the EPL, Brazilian national team, Belgian national team or French national team only passing sideways, so something has to give; these players didn't suddenly forget how to play the game they've been playing their entire lives over the course of one season. That, coupled with the fact that you can watch just about any game this season and see we prioritized going wide quite a lot of the time, leads me to believe there is some conflicting instruction somewhere along the line that is leaving our midfielders, many of whom were lauded as great players with amazing potential, confused and passing out wide more often than not. Again, I agree with you... they aren't the most creative lot around, but you absolutely cannot deny that playing it out the wings has been our go to all season. Forgive me if I choose to believe in the talent of the players over the talent of two underachieving managers.Though this portion argument is in no way worth pursuing, as all the either of us can provide is pure conjecture seeing as we aren't on the training ground day in and out, so we just don't know.

And again, I'll push his goalscoring prowess as more than unique enough for our squad. We have a +2 goal differential. Take away Paulinho's unique ability (amongst our midfielders) to put himself in the right positions to score and we're sitting negative. Negative. Who in our current squad possesses the ability to have put away 7 more goals if Pauli wasn't around? Dembele? Capoue? Sandro? Bentaleb? They're useful in their own right, but without Paulinho's ability to score our strike unit's collective inability to maintain form would be horribly exposed. I guess what I really don't understand is how you don't see his ability to score as unique in its own right.

Having the ability to outjump most opponents and being a decent header of the ball doesn't constitute as notable athleticism? You're kidding, right? You have an odd, rigid definition of athleticism.

I think Paulinho possesses all the aggressiveness he needs. To prove as such, I've quoted Eperons stat board for Paulinho's game against Fulham. I know they're just stats, so therefore they could never possibly be indicative of a players performance ever never ever (some words for your mouth), but seems to me like Paulinho does possess an ability to assert himself in different areas of the pitch. I believe if you look elsewhere in this thread someone mentions that he had the most successful tackles of any player for either team. That kind of performance is what Paulinho, on form, can bring to the table. If you're going to bash him for being out of form, fine... but don't say he isn't an above average talent. On more than one occasion this year he's proven he is more than capable of being a highly influential player. To go back to my original point, I think with a manager that knew how to balance our midfield properly (i.e. using a destroyer), Paulinho could focus more on getting himself into even more dangerous attacking positions and scoring a good 10-15 goals a season. Which, again, given our current strike force, is something I see as potentially crucial.

I was only assessing Paulinho. You've got constructive things to say, but you are highly mistaken if you think there wouldn't be any sort of difficult adjustment period that might affect form for a player jumping from South America to England to play with 6 other new signings. That he's performed as well as he has given the borderline laughable scenarios our club has been in this season, coupled with his all the nuances of his transition from one country to another (from language to style of football) is something I see as noteworthy. And, as I said, exciting. This is a player who, at times, has shown he has what it takes to dominate a match and score clutch goals-- one year of experience and growth in chemisty with his teammates, plus the very real possibility of a more accomplished manager, is 100% something to be excited about.

The baffling thing I'm afraid that I find from this conversation is that you seem to make decently thought out points to suggest intelligence, but seem to often misinterpret my points altogether. I'm not really sure what can be done about this, as you're clearly not stupid but conversely I'm finding myself becoming more and more frustrated with each post because your counters consist of entirely misdirected rhetoric. This in conjunction with our likely rooted footholds in each of our own opinions looks to cause us to continue in circles to no end.

But I will mention just a couple things on points that you didn't misinterpret, but rather just need clarification because I'm not sure why you are still opposed to these points. First, while I cannot tell you bonafide what precisely the managers are saying to the players, but that is no basis to discredit the higher likelihood that no manager would ever prescribe to such detrimental tactics and that the the problem is with tactics elsewhere/a problem with the players themselves. You don't even have to make it past the American middle school level to know that no coach would ever tell their players to do such a thing. You possess the astuteness to note the problem (and for that I sincerely applaud you because there are still some on here you fail to see it), but chalk it up to the most unlikely of causes.

Second, Paulinho was never intended to be a "destroyer." As I mentioned before, he was bought to be a volante, an influential BTB style central midfielder. If he wants to be a defensive style of player, then he's done nothing particular to set him as any different from Sandro, Capoue, or Dembele. He has not fulfilled his intended role for us, and not has not displayed any attributes that set him apart from any other central midfielder we have. This alone does not cause me to resent the player as you may believe, but I do think that if we even re-compensate close to what we paid for him, we could buy a more suitable option with cash left over for other areas.
 
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