Paulinho

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The baffling thing I'm afraid that I find from this conversation is that you seem to make decently thought out points to suggest intelligence, but seem to often misinterpret my points altogether. I'm not really sure what can be done about this, as you're clearly not stupid but conversely I'm finding myself becoming more and more frustrated with each post because your counters consist of entirely misdirected rhetoric. This in conjunction with our likely rooted footholds in each of our own opinions looks to cause us to continue in circles to no end.

But I will mention just a couple things on points that you didn't misinterpret, but rather just need clarification because I'm not sure why you are still opposed to these points. First, while I cannot tell you bonafide what precisely the managers are saying to the players, but that is no basis to discredit the higher likelihood that no manager would ever prescribe to such detrimental tactics and that the the problem is with tactics elsewhere/a problem with the players themselves. You don't even have to make it past the American middle school level to know that no coach would ever tell their players to do such a thing. You possess the astuteness to note the problem (and for that I sincerely applaud you because there are still some on here you fail to see it), but chalk it up to the most unlikely of causes.

Second, Paulinho was never intended to be a "destroyer." As I mentioned before, he was bought to be a volante, an influential BTB style central midfielder. If he wants to be a defensive style of player, then he's done nothing particular to set him as any different from Sandro, Capoue, or Dembele. He has not fulfilled his intended role for us, and not has not displayed any attributes that set him apart from any other central midfielder we have. This alone does not cause me to resent the player as you may believe, but I do think that if we even re-compensate close to what we paid for him, we could buy a more suitable option with cash left over for other areas.

Uh oh! You mentioned the no-no dreaded "American" word!! You've discredited yourself entirely!!
 
cahspur cahspur
paulinho reminds me alot of tim cahill for everton..
hard to nail down exactly what he does well, except be in the right place at the right time...
still im incline to agree with Wikipedia Brown Wikipedia Brown as i feel paulinho could be better with different/system...i have watched him for brazil and he seems to be a player than can link others together..plus pitch in with a few handy goals..
 
I'm surprised to see people disappointed with Pauli or wanting to flip him.

In a season where very little seemed to gel, he was one of the few bright spots for me. His transition to the prem was only second in quality to Eriksen while our other big purchases have looked extremely out of place.

Sure, he's missed a couple of easy chances but his goals on the year far outweigh his gafs. Not to mention, he won a game early in the season for us and has been a rare positive during this campaign full of negatives.

It was alluded to earlier that we should wait and see what he can do with a full year of prem football behind him. I cannot agree more. This is a player we should all get behind as fans.

I dig your support for the players, truly I do.

But he has not missed merely a "couple of easy chances." He has missed a stunning amount of glaring chances. The Fulham miss alone was inexcusable for a player at this level. So while I appreciate some of the goals he's scored and the points they've earned us, IMO they do not outweigh the chances he's missed and the points they've cost us.

I do not apologize at all for being disappointed with a player we purchased for 17 mil GBP, regardless of the pandemonium of this season and his transition from South America. He's used to a culture change any way given his time in Eastern Europe, and London is far easier. He has simply not shown the intrinsic ability to justify such an expenditure for us, and has been one of the worst to react in the multitude of times that the shit has hit the fan this season. There are better, more need-suitable options in Europe for less than a third of the price.
 
cahspur cahspur
paulinho reminds me alot of tim cahill for everton..
hard to nail down exactly what he does well, except be in the right place at the right time...
still im incline to agree with Wikipedia Brown Wikipedia Brown as i feel paulinho could be better with different/system...i have watched him for brazil and he seems to be a player than can link others together..plus pitch in with a few handy goals..

My entire point in many other threads in discussing our central midfield has been that with a new manager and the removal of the absurdly high back line that of course every player would benefit. However, I've also followed it up with mentioning that some players look to benefit from it more than others. Paulinho is one that I do not believe will benefit as much as others. And due to his lack of uniqueness, is a hindrance financially and positionally to a more suitable player who could be brought in for cheaper with money left over.

I do not believe Paulinho is even a poor player, but I believe it would be to the improvement of the squad as a whole to take advantage of what I'm sure will be favorable stock from his performances in Brazil to more adequately address our squad needs. Do you not agree that a dynamic DLP/BTB type central midfielder such as Clasie and a better LB such as Umtiti who can also play CB, for whom both of which could likely be acquired for such a sum of cash, would be more likely to benefit our squad more than Paulinho alone?
 
Uh oh! You mentioned the no-no dreaded "American" word!! You've discredited yourself entirely!!

Haha don't mind Audere dude, otherwise he gets what he wants. He's also actually a pretty swell guy, after he feels he's made it clear to you that the soil in contact with the water you drink holds upmost precedence over your cognitive function.
 
Haha don't mind Audere dude, otherwise he gets what he wants. He's also actually a pretty swell guy, after he feels he's made it clear to you that the soil in contact with the water you drink holds upmost precedence over your cognitive function.

Ah, I don't really care. I usually just remind myself that it's the internet and the ability to detect sarcasm is impossible.
 
Is there anyone here that would pass up £20 million for him?

You frankly just summed up my entire point in one sentence. There is a massive amount of improvement we could achieve with such an injection of funds. He's not an awful player and if he's still here come September, I'll root him on in every single minute he's on the pitch wearing our colors as I have every player this season. But if I were in charge, I'd take even an offer of 15 mil and run.
 
The baffling thing I'm afraid that I find from this conversation is that you seem to make decently thought out points to suggest intelligence, but seem to often misinterpret my points altogether. I'm not really sure what can be done about this, as you're clearly not stupid but conversely I'm finding myself becoming more and more frustrated with each post because your counters consist of entirely misdirected rhetoric. This in conjunction with our likely rooted footholds in each of our own opinions looks to cause us to continue in circles to no end.

But I will mention just a couple things on points that you didn't misinterpret, but rather just need clarification because I'm not sure why you are still opposed to these points. First, while I cannot tell you bonafide what precisely the managers are saying to the players, but that is no basis to discredit the higher likelihood that no manager would ever prescribe to such detrimental tactics and that the the problem is with tactics elsewhere/a problem with the players themselves. You don't even have to make it past the American middle school level to know that no coach would ever tell their players to do such a thing. You possess the astuteness to note the problem (and for that I sincerely applaud you because there are still some on here you fail to see it), but chalk it up to the most unlikely of causes.

Second, Paulinho was never intended to be a "destroyer." As I mentioned before, he was bought to be a volante, an influential BTB style central midfielder. If he wants to be a defensive style of player, then he's done nothing particular to set him as any different from Sandro, Capoue, or Dembele. He has not fulfilled his intended role for us, and not has not displayed any attributes that set him apart from any other central midfielder we have. This alone does not cause me to resent the player as you may believe, but I do think that if we even re-compensate close to what we paid for him, we could buy a more suitable option with cash left over for other areas.

Misinterpret? No. Disagree? Highly. Just because you think you're points are convincing doesn't mean I should be inclined to feel the same. And vice versa. Like you say, footholds.

Though I'm not sure which part of my argument you feel is misdirected, as it's all just my defense as to why we shouldn't ship Paulinho off in the summer. Namely that, despite you being of the mind that he hasn't shown much, I think he's shown a heck of a lot more than any of our other midfielders this year. Yes, at times he has looked pedestrian, but there have absolutely been games where he's bossed the match. I don't know why it's been so hot and cold for him, but I do know that I've seen him play like a midfielder a club like Madrid would likely come calling for at some point in the future.

Is it so likely, though? Look at Moyes... out of a job because of those very same detrimental tactics. If someone who has experienced premier league 'success' (I'll use that term lightly given recent circumstances) can be reduced to sending passes sideways and out wide (what was it, 81 crosses United put in against Fulham?), who's to say someone as green as Sherwood wouldn't resort to doing the same? All I'm saying is, based on our performances, it seems that Sherwood is very, very keen on getting the ball out wide. And we all know about AVB's 'play it safe' system, which I feel most definitely lent itself to an inherently more conservative mindset (i.e. [as I saw it], less penetration from our two deeper central players).

Meh, now I think you've misinterpreted me-- I'm not saying Paulinho was intended to be a destroyer, but rather that he may feel a bit more comfortable expressing himself on the pitch if we were to play with one. You've pointed to his displays with Brazil as positive, and I believe that to be because he normally has Luiz Gustavo behind him to break up play. Unfortunately, Sherwood doesn't seem keen on Sandro at the moment and Capoue has been all too Spursy with his injuries this season.

Again, I agree-- he isn't any more efficient defensively than Sandro/Cap/Dembele. That being said, he has managed to keep on par with them while possessing an offensive edge that they certainly don't have. I know you don't believe stats tell the full story, but surely Eperons' and Wookie's match performance posts regarding his game against Fulham proves that he can be a highly influential BTB midfielder on his day.

What is it about say, Dembele, that makes him so much more vital to our cause than Paulinho? Sandro and Capoue are obviously our destroyers, and Bentaleb is a young star in the making so holding on to him is imperative-- but what if someone were to come in for Dembele with an offer similar in value to one you see being made for Paulinho? My main concern is that losing the 10-15 goals Paulinho could easily bring to us, as well as his capable defensive abilities (maybe we'll see more after the worldcup) isn't worth it when we have no guarantees that our offensive woes will be fixed in the offseason.
 
Paulinho has looked no better than anyone else in central midfield. Saying that they have all been
incredibly mediocre to flair-less awfulness . The systems we have played have done nothing for
his game so it is hard to judge completely. I would like to try for one more season but he has been
crap so far. The players that have shown so little over 2 years , Dembele, Ziggy, should be sold on.
My central midfield for next season , as it is unlikely we will not spend much ,_
-----Cap/Sandro-------Eriksen
------------Paulinho--------------
playing behind a striker typical box to box, saying that with our wingers are impotent and a midfield inferior
to teams above , at best top 6 for next season.
 
Misinterpret? No. Disagree? Highly. Just because you think you're points are convincing doesn't mean I should be inclined to feel the same. And vice versa. Like you say, footholds.

Though I'm not sure which part of my argument you feel is misdirected, as it's all just my defense as to why we shouldn't ship Paulinho off in the summer. Namely that, despite you being of the mind that he hasn't shown much, I think he's shown a heck of a lot more than any of our other midfielders this year. Yes, at times he has looked pedestrian, but there have absolutely been games where he's bossed the match. I don't know why it's been so hot and cold for him, but I do know that I've seen him play like a midfielder a club like Madrid would likely come calling for at some point in the future.

Is it so likely, though? Look at Moyes... out of a job because of those very same detrimental tactics. If someone who has experienced premier league 'success' (I'll use that term lightly given recent circumstances) can be reduced to sending passes sideways and out wide (what was it, 81 crosses United put in against Fulham?), who's to say someone as green as Sherwood wouldn't resort to doing the same? All I'm saying is, based on our performances, it seems that Sherwood is very, very keen on getting the ball out wide. And we all know about AVB's 'play it safe' system, which I feel most definitely lent itself to an inherently more conservative mindset (i.e. [as I saw it], less penetration from our two deeper central players).

Meh, now I think you've misinterpreted me-- I'm not saying Paulinho was intended to be a destroyer, but rather that he may feel a bit more comfortable expressing himself on the pitch if we were to play with one. You've pointed to his displays with Brazil as positive, and I believe that to be because he normally has Luiz Gustavo behind him to break up play. Unfortunately, Sherwood doesn't seem keen on Sandro at the moment and Capoue has been all too Spursy with his injuries this season.

Again, I agree-- he isn't any more efficient defensively than Sandro/Cap/Dembele. That being said, he has managed to keep on par with them while possessing an offensive edge that they certainly don't have. I know you don't believe stats tell the full story, but surely Eperons' and Wookie's match performance posts regarding his game against Fulham proves that he can be a highly influential BTB midfielder on his day.

What is it about say, Dembele, that makes him so much more vital to our cause than Paulinho? Sandro and Capoue are obviously our destroyers, and Bentaleb is a young star in the making so holding on to him is imperative-- but what if someone were to come in for Dembele with an offer similar in value to one you see being made for Paulinho? My main concern is that losing the 10-15 goals Paulinho could easily bring to us, as well as his capable defensive abilities (maybe we'll see more after the worldcup) isn't worth it when we have no guarantees that our offensive woes will be fixed in the offseason.

I've mentioned quite a few times recently that I'd sell Dembele this summer for a decent price, and for what we paid for Paulinho I'd make that sale in less than a heartbeat. Dembele is a solid player, but his hip injury seems to be vastly underestimated. His step and best attributes such as shielding have unfortunately slowed and weakened at a far more exponential rate than a healthy player should at this point in the season. I also find him very frustrating in that he does so well to move the ball through the middle third quickly and effectively, but stalls like a fifteen year old learning to drive a stick-shift as soon as he runs into the back line. This is isn't even new this year, so the chaos of this year cannot logically be insinuated as the cause.

So again, if you believe my point is out to target Paulinho specifically, you're mistaken. As has been mentioned several times before in this thread, the problem is with the midfield as a whole that is compounded with the usage of a high back line. This is something I've been banging on about on here for quite some time now, and I'm pleased to see more people come to the realization. The essential point I've been trying to make is that Paulinho offers nothing particularly different in his style from anyone else, doesn't satisfy the role he was intended to perform, yet still would be valued enough to where the net gain for the squad in his sale could be immensely beneficial to the whole of the squad.

So I ask you as I did OZHotspur OZHotspur , do you disagree that a more dynamic DLP/BTB type player and a better left back for the same price would be more beneficial than keeping Paulinho? If so, that should be the point of this discussion. This roundabout we seem to be going on is useless, especially as you have indeed misinterpreted some of my points and looking back I did indeed misinterpret your usage of the term "destroyer." For that I apologize. But this back and forth over the qualities of Paulinho himself was never the road I wished to take this discussion, so I regret that it's been bastardized in any heated exchange.
 
cahspur cahspur
i think you are spot on...id take classie and LB over paulinho...except we are a big enough team not to have to sell him and still be able to afford the former..feel he has something to offer still and since this is not FM but real life the chances of us selling paulinho for 15-20 and getting classie and the LB for the same price are next to nothing...
 
cahspur cahspur
i think you are spot on...id take classie and LB over paulinho...except we are a big enough team not to have to sell him and still be able to afford the former..feel he has something to offer still and since this is not FM but real life the chances of us selling paulinho for 15-20 and getting classie and the LB for the same price are next to nothing...

Actually my dear Aussie, I pride myself in not making any unrealistic hopes or statements pertaining to our transfer dealings. Not only would such a thing set my coronary arteries up for plaque buildup over time due to all the disappointment, but it would also have been disrespectful to you and others to make a theoretical point that had no basis whatsoever in anything other than my own hope.

Clasie's release clause is five million euros. That's it. We snagged the French captain and starting goalkeeper from Lyon for 15 mil euros, including variables, two years ago. If it cost us that much to attain such a prize not so long ago, it is reasonable to suspect they'd sell a 20 year old defender who's yet to even receive a call up from France's senior team for considerably less. It is well known that Lyon have financial struggles. So put it all together and factor in that the euro wavers around 5/6 the pound, and it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that 17 mil GBP could very likely more than cover such prudent acquisitions.
 
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91% pass completion against Fulham... Admittedly mostly in Jenas directions. However:

"Paulinho left few blades of grass uncovered as he chased Fulham around the pitch, a one-man pressing machine that captured possession for Spurs in a number of dangerous areas. The Brazilian was successful with five of his eight tackles, the most by any player from either side, and won three in the opposition half.

Paulinho also made three interceptions, three clearances and won both of his headed duels. Allied to the goal he nabbed, this was the kind of consummate midfield display that Spurs thought they would be getting regularly when they plucked him from Corinthians.



Paulinho’s pass map against Fulham.

Full report here:
http://www.squawka.com/news/2014/04/21/paulinho/2014042199666

That is EXACTLY the type of player we need. Something solid in the middle. I see the stick he is still getting in this thread and it's hardly surprising. These stats generally do not appeal to a lot of Spurs fans because there are not enough flash and way too much hard work, endeavour, basic skills and dour defensive work.

Bundling the ball in from a cross, clearances etc are not sexy enough for some but it's the type of stuff I love. Probably because I don't see enough of it. It's why I really like Bentaleb. These players are a handful.
 
Hell, I most often see folks complaining that Dembele doesn't offer enough goals... well, in the context of our crap season, I'd say Paulinho has certainly offered more than enough of those. None of these guys are complete midfielders, so it's about time we stop expecting them to be.

IMO Dembele and Paulinho are about as close to a complete midfielder as you can get. They are so underrated by Spurs fans.

Dembele has been used as a DM mostly, and he's done that job better than a lot of dedicated DM's.
 
Paulinho is also used to having a break around Dec/Jan time as that's what happens in Brazil when their season ends. As we signed him in July/August this means he barely had a break in the summer either. Let him have a bit of a break, enjoy the World Cup and come back next year fresh and more familiar with the league. He will shine, we would be idiots to sell him after 1 season.
 
Paulinho is also used to having a break around Dec/Jan time as that's what happens in Brazil when their season ends. As we signed him in July/August this means he barely had a break in the summer either. Let him have a bit of a break, enjoy the World Cup and come back next year fresh and more familiar with the league. He will shine, we would be idiots to sell him after 1 season.

He will have a good season next year, there's no question! Hell, he might have two good seasons! That doesn't change the fact that he will never be able to be sold for £15-20 million ever again in his career. He turns 26 in the summer.
 
He will have a good season next year, there's no question! Hell, he might have two good seasons! That doesn't change the fact that he will never be able to be sold for £15-20 million ever again in his career. He turns 26 in the summer.

That post is ridiculous if he has two good seasons likelihood is his value would rise and aside from that as Spurs fans we would rather have the player than the money.
 
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