Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool | 6 Nov 2022 | KO 16:30 | Second Half Match Thread

[Deuterz]

Depends what you mean by "deserved" tbh.
we definitely didn't deserve the draw at Chelsea imo.

Deserved to lose to West Ham & Marseille too. And plenty of other games where a draw would’ve been a fair reflection of the game.

The football has been rubbish all season. But we’re meant to be content because there’s a clear plan? OK but the plan seems to be failing.

Low risk passive football with players who are gifting the opposition goals and only one attacking player who is prolific currently. Good stuff.

 

[Airfixx]

Deserved to lose to West Ham & Marseille too. And plenty of other games where a draw would’ve been a fair reflection of the game.

The football has been rubbish all season. But we’re meant to be content because there’s a clear plan? OK but the plan seems to be failing.

Low risk passive football with players who are gifting the opposition goals and only one attacking player who is prolific currently. Good stuff.

Absolutely not.

 

[Deuterz]

Absolutely not.

Only one team looked likely to win that game after West Ham equalised.

More xG, more shots, more shots on target. Funnily enough the only stat we had going for us was possession, because Moyes is even more anti football than Conte is.

Oh and it wasn’t a penalty. Referee made the correct decision. I was pissed at the time but it was the correct decision by the letter of the law.

 

[Airfixx]

Only one team looked likely to win that game after West Ham equalised.

More xG, more shots, more shots on target. Funnily enough the only stat we had going for us was possession, because Moyes is even more anti football than Conte is.

Oh and it wasn’t a penalty. Referee made the correct decision. I was pissed at the time but it was the correct decision by the letter of the law.

Yet, there are games where we won the XG battle where peeps would still argue we didn't deserve to win.

We would have been out of sight at 2-0 but got screwed by a dodgy VAR offside.

WH earned a draw, but no way did they categorically deserve to win.

 

[cretinousgoat]

We were outplayed before the red card vs Woolwich so let’s not use that as some lame excuse. We had about 10 minutes of playing football in that entire match.

Also were behind in both games & at home so you’d expect us to be the dominant team for large periods as the side ultimately chasing the game.

It’s amazing that we’re meant to be relaxed about these games because we were marginally the ‘better’ team in home games vs an Eddie Howe led Newcastle and a in a freefall can’t buy a win at home Liverpool.

2-0 down in both games at half time. But hey, we were better than them so Conte’s earning every penny of that 15 million a year. Meanwhile other top 6 managers are settling for 3 points in their big home matches.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

We were outplayed before the red card vs Woolwich so let’s not use that as some lame excuse. We had about 10 minutes of playing football in that entire match.

Also were behind in both games & at home so you’d expect us to be the dominant team for large periods as the side ultimately chasing the game.

It’s amazing that we’re meant to be relaxed about these games because we were marginally the ‘better’ team in home games vs an Eddie Howe led Newcastle and a in a freefall can’t buy a win at home Liverpool.

2-0 down in both games at half time. But hey, we were better than them so Conte’s earning every penny of that 15 million a year. Meanwhile other top 6 managers are settling for 3 points in their big home matches.

Sitting deep by design but not being played through, or have oppo create chances by getting behind us is NOT being played off the park!!!! This is the difference. You may hate to see us sit deep and narrow, you might want for us to play on the front foot but by not doing that isn't us getting outplayed!!

By contrast, we were totally outplayed by Utd - they were pulling us out of shape, we left spaces and they took full advantage, we had no control over this game at all throughout its entirety.

Control doesn't mean having the ball. It means having the ball played by the oppo in areas of the pitch we have deemed acceptable for them to have it. Those areas are outside of our box. And if the ball is played into our box then our aim is to smother that attack so that the opportunity is reduced to a very low % one. THIS IS HOW WE PLAY. This can categorically be stated because we do this in almost all of our matches, it's a choice, it's deliberate.

Having seen Woolwich play this season, sitting deep and narrow for the first 20mins is exactly what I would expect to be the right approach. In every single game I've watched, they look to blow you off the park in this period, the teams that have prepared for this and not conceded in this period, tend to remain in the game as their drop-off past 20min is pretty large. You then enter a totally different phase of the game, where they are no longer pressing effectively. How did they score?......From outside the box their FIRST effort on target in 20mins. We then equalized 9mins later. Their 2nd effort on target was another long-range effort on 48mins that Hugo saved but spilled the ball to Romero who didn't react with the same speed as Jesus who bundled it over the line (goal scored because of an error by us). Royal then wrongly gets sent off and the game plan is out of the window.

How many ways does this have to be written? How many more games do you have to watch before you notice this? THIS. IS. HOW. WE. PLAY. It's by design, it's repeated frequently to prove it.

I DON'T like how we play in these phases, I'm NOT endorsing them. I DON'T know why we do this. I've theorised as to why, that's all I can do.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Depends what you mean by "deserved" tbh.
we definitely didn't deserve the draw at Chelsea imo.

I completly disagree. I think we totally deserved the draw against them. We created twice as many "big chances" in that game than them. Lloris was largely untroubled throughout the entire match (he made ONE save in the first half that was routine for him). They did miss a big chance (Havertz???) in the 2nd half when he didn't slot home from a great James cross.

Did I like how we played? NO!!! But Chavs didn't look like scoring, they have an issue in this area and I think that Conte was at fault for not being more adventurous because of this (but then it was only the 2nd game of the season so it's hard to determine if this was a pattern yet).

 

[Deuterz]

Sitting deep by design but not being played through, or have oppo create chances by getting behind us is NOT being played off the park!!!! This is the difference. You may hate to see us sit deep and narrow, you might want for us to play on the front foot but by not doing that isn't us getting outplayed!!

By contrast, we were totally outplayed by Utd - they were pulling us out of shape, we left spaces and they took full advantage, we had no control over this game at all throughout its entirety.

Control doesn't mean having the ball. It means having the ball played by the oppo in areas of the pitch we have deemed acceptable for them to have it. Those areas are outside of our box. And if the ball is played into our box then our aim is to smother that attack so that the opportunity is reduced to a very low % one. THIS IS HOW WE PLAY. This can categorically be stated because we do this in almost all of our matches, it's a choice, it's deliberate.

Having seen Woolwich play this season, sitting deep and narrow for the first 20mins is exactly what I would expect to be the right approach. In every single game I've watched, they look to blow you off the park in this period, the teams that have prepared for this and not conceded in this period, tend to remain in the game as their drop-off past 20min is pretty large. You then enter a totally different phase of the game, where they are no longer pressing effectively. How did they score?......From outside the box their FIRST effort on target in 20mins. We then equalized 9mins later. Their 2nd effort on target was another long-range effort on 48mins that Hugo saved but spilled the ball to Romero who didn't react with the same speed as Jesus who bundled it over the line (goal scored because of an error by us). Royal then wrongly gets sent off and the game plan is out of the window.

How many ways does this have to be written? How many more games do you have to watch before you notice this? THIS. IS. HOW. WE. PLAY. It's by design, it's repeated frequently to prove it.

I DON'T like how we play in these phases, I'm NOT endorsing them. I DON'T know why we do this. I've theorised as to why, that's all I can do.

How many more times do we have to lose or draw against decent teams this season before the design is considered flawed?

Because at some point the ‘oh we didn’t get opened up we just conceded ANOTHER unlucky goal, blast!’ logic is gonna wear thin.

It already has for me and many others. Sit deep and hand away the initiative and you invite the opposition to get lucky.

And it was a red card.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

How many more times do we have to lose or draw against decent teams this season before the design is considered flawed?

Because at some point the ‘oh we didn’t get opened up we just conceded ANOTHER unlucky goal, blast!’ logic is gonna wear thin.

It already has for me and many others. Sit deep and hand away the initiative and you invite the opposition to get lucky.

And it was a red card.

It wasn't a red card, honestly, you are the first person (other than a gooner) that I've heard that says it was.

If you don't like how we play, then crack on, I don't know many (if any) that do. But the fact we are where we are is a testament that it's fucking working. He has the highest win %(57.14%) of any Tottenham manager in the last 123yrs!!!! The 2nd highest in our entire history!!!

But to not like how we play is completely different than saying we are being out played, we aren't, we play the same in almost every game. This is how we play.

 

[Deuterz]

It wasn't a red card, honestly, you are the first person (other than a gooner) that I've heard that says it was.

If you don't like how we play, then crack on, I don't know many (if any) that do. But the fact we are where we are is a testament that it's fucking working. He has the highest win %(57.14%) of any Tottenham manager in the last 123yrs!!!! The 2nd highest in our entire history!!!

But to not like how we play is completely different than saying we are being out played, we aren't, we play the same in almost every game. This is how we play.

Immediately checked ref watch to see that Dermot Gallagher also said red card.

We were good last season. We’re not that good this season. Whatever the reason for that is I can only speculate, but we’ve played shit on a stick football and results are catching up with that lately.

 

[Cranston]

It wasn't a red card, honestly, you are the first person (other than a gooner) that I've heard that says it was.

If you don't like how we play, then crack on, I don't know many (if any) that do. But the fact we are where we are is a testament that it's fucking working. He has the highest win %(57.14%) of any Tottenham manager in the last 123yrs!!!! The 2nd highest in our entire history!!!

But to not like how we play is completely different than saying we are being out played, we aren't, we play the same in almost every game. This is how we play.

I’m surprised at how pragmatic you are when it comes to Conte’s style of play. You absolutely despised Jose’s style of play (and I broadly agreed with you) but you rarely settled on ‘the ends justify the means’ when Jose got us over the line. You wanted progressive football above all.

I genuinely don’t think we’re much better. At the beginning of the season we were better off the ball, and the back three has helped us. Mistakes are creeping back in.

And I’m really disappointed with the total lack of clear attacking direction.

As it is, I think we’ve been found out and have fallen back into the second string, teams around 5th to 8th.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Immediately checked ref watch to see that Dermot Gallagher also said red card.

We were good last season. We’re not that good this season. Whatever the reason for that is I can only speculate, but we’ve played shit on a stick football and results are catching up with that lately.

Hahahahahhaa Dermot fucking Gallagher jeeezus fucking christ on a bike. The same man that said Son's disallowed penalty against Rochdale was the correct decision ahahahahahaa He's fucking clueless.

Ref Watch: Dermot Gallagher's verdict on decisions in Tottenham's win over Rochdale

Dermot Gallagher mounted a defence of the VAR system he says made the right decisions in disallowing a goal and awarding a penalty during Tottenhams 6-1 win over Rochdale in their FA Cup fifth-round replay on Wednesday.

www.skysports.com

I know we became quite good last season, I've mentioned this numerous times in the last couple of pages. I've then also gone on to say that as a consequence of how we ended up playing in the latter half of last season that I had a personal expectation that we would improve because Conte has had a transfer window and got players he wanted and had them start before pre-season, having a pre-season I also saw as another reason to expect improved performance + the addition that the existing core of players are familiar with what he wants from them. My firm expectation was that I was expecting a linear improvement.

I've detailed my reasons why I think we haven't.

Of the games we lost recently we should have won two of them (Newcastle & Liverpool) given the performance we delivered, ironically the performance in these two games was significantly different in our approach to most of the games where we have sat in a mid to low-block and where we looked a much better watch, so it's at total odds as to say "results are catching up". If anything when you have a results-oriented Manager, he's more than likely to go back to a 2 man midfield and sit in more as this is what has delivered the results.

 

[Deuterz]

Hahahahahhaa Dermot fucking Gallagher jeeezus fucking christ on a bike. The same man that said Son's disallowed penalty against Rochdale was the correct decision ahahahahahaa He's fucking clueless.

Ref Watch: Dermot Gallagher's verdict on decisions in Tottenham's win over Rochdale

Dermot Gallagher mounted a defence of the VAR system he says made the right decisions in disallowing a goal and awarding a penalty during Tottenhams 6-1 win over Rochdale in their FA Cup fifth-round replay on Wednesday.

www.skysports.com

I know we became quite good last season, I've mentioned this numerous times in the last couple of pages. I've then also gone on to say that as a consequence of how we ended up playing in the latter half of last season that I had a personal expectation that we would improve because Conte has had a transfer window and got players he wanted and had them start before pre-season, having a pre-season I also saw as another reason to expect improved performance + the addition that the existing core of players are familiar with what he wants from them. My firm expectation was that I was expecting a linear improvement.

I've detailed my reasons why I think we haven't.

Of the games we lost recently we should have won two of them (Newcastle & Liverpool) given the performance we delivered, ironically the performance in these two games was significantly different in our approach to most of the games where we have sat in a mid to low-block and where we looked a much better watch, so it's at total odds as to say "results are catching up". If anything when you have a results-oriented Manager, he's more than likely to go back to a 2 man midfield and sit in more as this is what has delivered the results.

The ex professional referee who sky sports hire for his insight .. hm yes, you definitely know more about the rules of football than him, the referee on the pitch, and the VAR team on the night. Also, lots of people on here thought it was a red so don't know how you missed that. It was a pretty even split & that's on a Spurs forum.

You were much more impressed by our performances vs Newcastle and Liverpool than I was. I thought it was much of the same but at home & because we went 2-0 down we tried to play a bit. Reactive boreball which doesn't differ much at all from the shit we saw under Jose. Even under him we had the odd game where we took the game to the opposition (especially when losing) but overall the style was dire to watch.

Again, you're welcome to your opinion, whatever. Clearly we have very different impressions of where this team is headed and what we're currently doing, but don't worry we have a whole season to find out who is right, don't we?

 

[Airfixx]

The ex professional referee who sky sports hire for his insight .. hm yes, you definitely know more about the rules of football than him, the referee on the pitch, and the VAR team on the night. Also, lots of people on here thought it was a red so don't know how you missed that. It was a pretty even split & that's on a Spurs forum.

You were much more impressed by our performances vs Newcastle and Liverpool than I was. I thought it was much of the same but at home & because we went 2-0 down we tried to play a bit. Reactive boreball which doesn't differ much at all from the shit we saw under Jose. Even under him we had the odd game where we took the game to the opposition (especially when losing) but overall the style was dire to watch.

Again, you're welcome to your opinion, whatever. Clearly we have very different impressions of where this team is headed and what we're currently doing, but don't worry we have a whole season to find out who is right, don't we?

We weren't playing reactively in the first 1/3 of the NC game.... We were aggressive prior to the 2 goals we gifted then on the break in quick succession (possibly leaving ourselves exposed to the pressure that led to said goals?). Then spent the 2nd half banging our heads against a well organised team who had no motivation to seek another goal (admittedly we lacked enough of a creative spark to get a 2nd goal).

I don't think we were particularly passive against Liverpool either....... Yes they pegged up back at times in the first half (remember they were praised for their first half performance;(*) it's not just Spurs sitting back against training cones.), but we posed them a threat going fwd too.

(*That being said, I thought over the 90mins that Liverpool were pretty poor and in no way deserving of the broader plaudits that their performance received.)

 

[Deuterz]

We weren't playing reactively in the first 1/3 of the NC game.... We were aggressive prior to the 2 goals we gifted then on the break in quick succession (possibly leaving ourselves exposed to the pressure that led to said goals?). Then spent the 2nd half banging our heads against a well organised team who had no motivation to seek another goal (admittedly we lacked enough of a creative spark to get a 2nd goal).

I don't think we were particularly passive against Liverpool either....... Yes they pegged up back at times in the first half (remember they were praised for their first half performance;(*) it's not just Spurs sitting back against training cones.), but we posed them a threat going fwd too.

(*That being said, I though over the 90 Liverpool were pretty poor an in no way desering of the broader plaudits that their performance received.)

Meh. I remember us having a decent start vs Newcastle but it fading quickly. Like I said, it was OK but I wasn't enamoured with it, we just showed a bit of intent. And we did that occasionally under Jose too, it happens.

Against Liverpool we started badly, conceded, and then gave it a bit of a go before being hit on the break. The second half was good, but not good enough for me to be satisfied at all. At no point in these games were we in front or looking likely to win the match, just chasing it.

Liverpool weren't that good for sure. Nor were Newcastle. We were just beat by two mediocre performances because we were also mediocre but compounded this with individual errors.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

The ex professional referee who sky sports hire for his insight .. hm yes, you definitely know more about the rules of football than him, the referee on the pitch, and the VAR team on the night. Also, lots of people on here thought it was a red so don't know how you missed that. It was a pretty even split & that's on a Spurs forum.

You were much more impressed by our performances vs Newcastle and Liverpool than I was. I thought it was much of the same but at home & because we went 2-0 down we tried to play a bit. Reactive boreball which doesn't differ much at all from the shit we saw under Jose. Even under him we had the odd game where we took the game to the opposition (especially when losing) but overall the style was dire to watch.

Again, you're welcome to your opinion, whatever. Clearly we have very different impressions of where this team is headed and what we're currently doing, but don't worry we have a whole season to find out who is right, don't we?

And yet other ex-professional refs and players said that it wasn't go fucking figure that one out, mindblowing. The laws of the game state a red card is to be awarded in a tackle for "serious foul play".
Which translates to "a tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play". There was NO excessive force or brutality in that passage of play.

(just like Son's penalty, the ref on the pitch and VAR and Gallagher all thought Son's pen should have been disallowed even though it clearly states in the laws of the game you CAN faint in the run-up. I wonder what any of them think of Jorginho's pens).

No one hated Jose more than me, my posting history will attest to this. There is zero correlation between Conte and Jose. Jose won just 44 matches at Spurs, Conte has already won 32 and has played 30 fewer games!!! Jose is on record as one of our worst-performing managers in the past 20yrs (statistically better than Jol but given what the two of them were given to work with Jol was so, so much better). Under Jose we were utter dog shit in every aspect of the field from front to back, he set us up not to have the ball and defend, but we didn't defend! Conte has reversed almost all of the underlying metrics from Jose's time. If you can't see or don't want to see this then there's nothing else to talk about really.

 

[Deuterz]

And yet other ex-professional refs and players said that it wasn't go fucking figure that one out, mindblowing. The laws of the game state a red card is to be awarded in a tackle for "serious foul play".
Which translates to "a tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play". There was NO excessive force or brutality in that passage of play.

(just like Son's penalty, the ref on the pitch and VAR and Gallagher all thought Son's pen should have been disallowed even though it clearly states in the laws of the game you CAN faint in the run-up. I wonder what any of them think of Jorginho's pens).

No one hated Jose more than me, my posting history will attest to this. There is zero correlation between Conte and Jose. Jose won just 44 matches at Spurs, Conte has already won 32 and has played 30 fewer games!!! Jose is on record as one of our worst-performing managers in the past 20yrs (statistically better than Jol but given what the two of them were given to work with Jol was so, so much better). Under Jose we were utter dog shit in every aspect of the field from front to back, he set us up not to have the ball and defend, but we didn't defend! Conte has reversed almost all of the underlying metrics from Jose's time. If you can't see or don't want to see this then there's nothing else to talk about really.

What ex professional referees said it wasn't a red card?

It was a controversial decision. It certainly wasn't 'oh nobody but gooners thought it was a red' though, was it? Because people on here did, ex refs did, pundits did. Every pundit I saw talk about it at the time (Jenas, Fletcher, Keown) thought it was a crazy tackle and a red. But of course Conte still plays this useless, shit player for some reason.

Oh and Peter Walton also thought it was a red. So that's two ex-refs, the ref at the time and the VAR officials .. but only gooners right? Those white tinted glasses are class.

Walton said: “I don’t think Tottenham or Emerson Royal will have any complaints about this tackle at all. The challenge completely out of context, the actual challenge itself going down the side of the shin - with force - and that’s the main thing.

"Force equals a sending-off offence. It was serious foul play, Anthony Taylor took his time because I don’t think he realised what happened straight in front of him, he’s looked at it and it’s a red card offence."

 

[Airfixx]

Meh. I remember us having a decent start vs Newcastle but it fading quickly. Like I said, it was OK but I wasn't enamoured with it, we just showed a bit of intent. And we did that occasionally under Jose too, it happens.

The point here wasn't to herald a wonderful performance; just merely dispel the casual dismissal that it was merely "reactive boreball".

Against Liverpool we started badly, conceded, and then gave it a bit of a go before being hit on the break. The second half was good, but not good enough for me to be satisfied at all.

Your satisfaction isn't really the crux of the debate here.... Or at least why i interjected...... Again see "reactive boreball".

At no point in these games were we in front or looking likely to win the match, just chasing it.

"Meh... " - Chasing is a reflection of the scoreline in both games, not the intent........ Esp. v Liverpool.... What do you expect having gone 1-0 at 11mins?

Liverpool weren't that good for sure. Nor were Newcastle. We were just beat by two mediocre performances because we were also mediocre but compounded this with individual errors.

In both games, the errors were the catalyst of the defeats...... Not "reactive boreball".....

Usually, "not very good" vs "mediocre" results in a 0-0 draw or maybe a 1-1 (see WH away*).

Neither game came anywhere close to the 1st half onslaught vs Chelsea...... To which; I'd openly say "Fuck 'em... We got away with one against those cunts for a change!"


(*We beat Liverpool on XG, shots & big chances, btw.... No mention of that this time...????)

 

[Deuterz]

The point here wasn't to herald a wonderful performance; just merely dispel the casual dismissal that it was merely "reactive boreball".



Your satisfaction isn't really the crux of the debate here.... Or at least why i interjected...... Again see "reactive boreball".



"Meh... " - Chasing is a reflection of the scoreline in both games, not the intent........ Esp. v Liverpool.... What do you epxect having gone 1-0 at 11mins?



In both games, the errors were the catalyst of the defeats...... Not "reactive boreball".....

Usually, not "very good" vs "mediocre" results in a 0-0 draw or maybe a 1-1 (see WH away*).

Neither game came anywhere close to the 1st half onslaught vs Chelsea...... To which; I'd openly say "Fuck 'em... We got away with one against those cunts for a change!"


(*We beat Liverpool on XG, shots & big chances, btw.... No mention of that this time...????)

It wasn't exciting football. We were ok. We were mostly reactive to what the opponent's were doing (we're still dreadful in possession and can't create to save our lives, so reliant on transitions and not on any kind of clever, combination play or unlocking defences) but at least in those games we tried to keep the football a bit.

But yes, the fact we keep playing this reactive football requiring little to no mistakes with players making big mistakes regularly is very silly, you're right. Conte should do something about that, like not play Emerson Royal.

I haven't said we didn't deserve more vs Liverpool so why would I mention it? They were crap, we were a bit above our usual standards but still meh. Two not very good teams this season clashed and we were slightly better as the home side but still lost because we have clowns in the team. Big woop.

 

[Spaniel]

Don't worry. Look who the new owner might be.....

Former UFC champion Conor McGregor says he has requested information about buying Liverpool. (Mail