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Is there a reason why Foyth can't play as a DM? Outside of him never doing it before. Feel like he could make the switch like Dier and have a big impact there. Rather have him there at RB.
I do think Lo Celso have Ndombele have good defensive instincts for 8s, for with our back line we need a true 6.
I do think Lo Celso have Ndombele have good defensive instincts for 8s, for with our back line we need a true 6.
Winks is one of the only players really putting the work in. He's being a leader and tries to shift the pace of the game with forward runs. Long term he may not be the solution, but if sanchez is behind with Foyth, they have the legs. It's not perfect but it's better to have one quality and one good CB that are fully committed and young than two older centre backs that aren't trying.
Aurier is just so awful right now, he's not exactly dani Alves going forward, just stick Dier in. He will love to be back in the team and put his heart in, he's more defensive minded but can cross a ball and has put in some great performances at RB in the past.
No one is questioning Winks' efforts its the result. I'm sure Kane tried really hard as keeper on that free kick in the Europa a few years back but the ball still went in the net.
Again, I'm not saying Winks should be dropped, but he's not good enough to be a bang on starter and he should not be a DM when he does play.
Does Foyth have a natural position? He played further up before moving to CB at 17 I think. Again, we have no DMs it seems.
Sanchez is a fucking CB though.
The defensive woes certainly are troubling. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, we’ve made way too many mistakes. A lot of them come down to the defense not playing as a cohesive unit but honestly the whole right side of our defense was dreadful last night. I’m not sure if it is the age or contract status or something else but our Belgian wall has been leaky this season. If I’m Poch I think we might be at the point where you give them a mandate and ask them to sign contracts, if they don’t, then we need to start getting others in there.
I agree with many that defensive midfield has been a huge problem this year as well. I actually really like the Foyth idea but would prefer to simply develop him as a CB. Dier though I think we need to give a run of games there and see if he can get back to where he was. Winks, I love, but part of me thinks he’d do well as more of an 8. His forward passing is really pretty sharp.
This brings us to formation and for the life of me I cannot figure out why we don’t do a more traditional 4-3-3. I’d roll out…
KWP-Sanchez-Jan-Davies
--Ndombele-Dier-Winks--
--------Son-Kane-Dele------
I know some will gripe at Dele but I think he needs a run of games (like Dier) to try and re-gain his confidence. The skills are still there, he just needs time and the mindset.
I know Lo Celso will be back eventually, in which case he can be rotated in for someone like Winks or Dele. Lucas can get rotated in for Son and Dele. Sessegnon will take over for Davies at some point as well. Lamela can also get minutes in.
Our main problem right now is we have quite a few very, very good attacking options and are really lacking in defensive options. RB, CB and DM are huge priorities in January/next June. In the interim, we need to change to a formation like a 4-3-3 or a 3-5-2 that will throw manpower there since we don’t have the talent/capabilities to do it with fewer men.
I agree with many that defensive midfield has been a huge problem this year as well. I actually really like the Foyth idea but would prefer to simply develop him as a CB. Dier though I think we need to give a run of games there and see if he can get back to where he was. Winks, I love, but part of me thinks he’d do well as more of an 8. His forward passing is really pretty sharp.
This brings us to formation and for the life of me I cannot figure out why we don’t do a more traditional 4-3-3. I’d roll out…
KWP-Sanchez-Jan-Davies
--Ndombele-Dier-Winks--
--------Son-Kane-Dele------
I know some will gripe at Dele but I think he needs a run of games (like Dier) to try and re-gain his confidence. The skills are still there, he just needs time and the mindset.
I know Lo Celso will be back eventually, in which case he can be rotated in for someone like Winks or Dele. Lucas can get rotated in for Son and Dele. Sessegnon will take over for Davies at some point as well. Lamela can also get minutes in.
Our main problem right now is we have quite a few very, very good attacking options and are really lacking in defensive options. RB, CB and DM are huge priorities in January/next June. In the interim, we need to change to a formation like a 4-3-3 or a 3-5-2 that will throw manpower there since we don’t have the talent/capabilities to do it with fewer men.
The big hoo ha about us not buying anyone in the two transfer windows prior to last summer was in theory a good thing in respect of ridiculous amounts of money being spent on bang average players! but us doing it alone in the grand scale of things meant hee haw everybody else had to do it for it for it to make a difference but sadly they didn’t and we did and it’s coming home to roost now! Even if we’d have bought young promising players just to freshen things up and bedded them in gradually we might be in a different situation now?
We’ve had a player publicly slate our tactics in the media.
ESPN running a story about the senior players unhappy about our tactics.
The question isn’t what tactics we should deploy, but who will be managing us.
There is a major coup taking place
ESPN running a story about the senior players unhappy about our tactics.
The question isn’t what tactics we should deploy, but who will be managing us.
There is a major coup taking place
You've saved me a lot of typing. Thanks.
Exactly what I was going to write. Top analysis
Things worked much better the following season when Dier was dropped back into the defence and Wanyama played as the 6. No coincidence that Dembele had his best season in a Spurs shirt and we had our best season under Poch (or for 50 odd years come to that). That was the last time we had a proper balanced side. Right/left balance, and complimentary balance of skills.
There's nothing great about your 6 disappearing into your back line when you don't have the ball, and dragging the game back with him and inviting pressure. Much better to have an aggressive, pro-active 6 who prefers to read/hunt down danger before it gets to your penalty box.
This Bayern game was pretty much perfect for highlighting many of the issues that are wrong right now. You could run it as a power point demo to cover many of the bases.
We are a team that is structurally poor, tactically confused, lethargic in our application. We have a manager who continues to pick players that don't suit his structure and tactics and whose naivety has often been shown up on the big occasions, in the last 12 months has been shown up by much humbler opponents.
This is not a simple problem of one player or one position or one area of the pitch.
The first 30 minutes were pretty good. We came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, we were pressing as a team pretty well, Winks was busying about, Ndombele was threading wonderful defence splitting passes, and even Sissoko looked vaguely like a footballer. The fact that they started in a 4231 helped too, as our 1+2 CM3, when it was in this early energy phase, could outnumber them.
But then it quickly fell apart, after 30 minutes we were fucking spent, people stopped pressing, stood off, stopped offering themselves up for the ball, as a result the shape started to get more exposed - particularly the right back zone - as the forward payers just fucking ambled about, and the spanking that many of us had said would happen if we pulled this shit against a "top" side finally materialised.
People are constantly latching onto to things like the fact that we don't have a proper DM or our RB isn't great (although we were assured by many that it was all Trippier's fault). Things don't go as progressively badly wrong as they have been going for the last 2 years because of just one or two personnel issues. City lost Fernandinho and their LB at times last couple of years, but they didn't just fucking melt into being shit everywhere. Bayern scored 5 goals playing without a pure DM and a pretty shit RB playing at LB in the second half. Because they at least have the fundamental basics endemically ingrained.
DM
Winks isn't always ideal in that 6/Hub role, but it's not that simple, it is compounded by having Sissoko out there as the 6/8 partner in a CM2, or as the 8 in the CM3, who doesn't want to show for the ball when we need outlets under pressure, and is generally so fucking slow at reading and reacting without out the ball. And now we have Ndombele out there too, with the ball he's excellent, without the ball he's got learning to do, also not the most defensively dynamic, and needs to be more proactive looking for it when we are playing out.
A perfect example (and I've posted stuff like this before as has
RESPECT THE COCK
demonstrating this) is the third goal. Winks makes the initial mistake of passing the ball back to Rose when he actually has time to turn. What happens then is that Sissoko sees what is happening but actively refuses to show for the ball, move toward Rose or move into a position where he can offer Rose or Winks an option, so Rose has no other option but to give it back to Winks (who is the only one prepared to offer himself up) who now has absolutely no options at all because Sissoko still hasn't read or moved into a position to receive the ball:
First mistake - Winks goes backwards instead of forwards:
Winks move to receive the ball, Sissoko just stands there and fucking points (at fuck all as ever) so even when Rose does pass the ball to Winks, Sissoko doesn't even make himself available for the next phase - he just assumes it will "work itself out" if he points enough:
Now Winks has the ball, but with no options as Sissoko has made no effort to offer himself:
Result, Winks is pressed out of possession, and they score. Everyone blames Winks entirely, but he was just part of the clusterfuck, but the real problem is players like Winks not having options on the ball because others are fucking lazy or hiding, and that's become endemic at times in this midfield, and when your midfield isn't functioning, it's like a car with a fucked engine.
And Ndombele was just as guilty. He has to get more proactive in seeking out the ball in a team that wants to move the ball from front to back, and he's also got to get more diligent defensively. The thing with Sissoko is, he doesn't offer what Ndombele offers on the ball either.
So yes, Winks is definitely not ideal, I would dearly have loved us to buy a proper 6 in the last two windows, and I really don't think he's the future in this remit, but we also need to get the whole midfield balance right. We need three proper footballers in there, a good footballing busy cunting 6, with hopefully a developing Ndombele and scheming, more dynamic Lo Celso either side, rendering Winks a squad option.
RB
Another area of constant apoplexy. I said for the last two years that the issue is not Trippier per se. He wasn't perfect, definitely had some deficiencies, but the problem was clearly Poch's structure, tactical application and selections that were counter intuitive to the system he was insisting our FB's play.
Its being exposed even more now because Aurier doesn't have Trippier's brain or even Walker's recovery pace, which could compensate sometimes. Aurier does stupid things, and when Gnabry raced away for the third, he should not have dived in (just as he shouldn't have tugged Bertrand), he should have stayed on his feet and tried to catch him or put pressure on him - as Gnabry would eventually be a bit slower because he had to dribble with the ball and cut in - but the situation arose because Kane and Alli just fucking stood there and watched as the Bayern defenders knocked it around, then out to the LB.
If you are going to play the high line and push FB's up, then pressing up top is absolutely fucking fundamental. Or put a structure in place that compensates, preferably both. Otherwise you pull the CM's up and out of shape to press where the forwards should be and that leaves massive spaces, vertically and laterally for opponent AM's and forwards to get into - See the Newcastle goal.
You cannot play a high defensive line, ask your RB to push right up with your midfield and beyond and then not pressure the opposition on the ball - it will continually expose that full back zone.
So yes, Aurier is not the brightest, he's not ideal, but as we have seen, it doesn't matter who we play there, if Poch doesn't fucking wise up and get the structure and tactics right, the RB will continue to be exposed and bare the brunt of Poch's tactics.
SELECTIONS
You cannot keep picking players that are counter intuitive to the way you want to play as a collective. If you want to play out from the back and play through the opponent press - which more and more are doing now - you cannot have big dumb units that are uncomfortable under that press and lack the brains, 360 vision or technique to deal with it. This was true 3 years ago with Dier and it's even truer with Sissoko now. These players are also invariably spent after 30 minutes and just spend the rest of the game ambling about standing off, or in Dier's case retreating back int the CB's shorts.
Moura as a fucking CF. Offers absolutely nothing to team play in this role and just gets in Kane's way. Head down, scurry scurry then fuck all. CB's as fucking RB's. Alli bumbling about as the lone creative hub. CM2's against 433's. CM2’s like Winks/Sissoko that cannot play out and also aren’t defensively diligent enough to protect the cb’s whilst also covering advanced fb’s. The fucking wanky diamond. The wanky 442 when the wanky diamond fucks up. Stupid subs that make us worse not better.
FORMAT
Once again we got the fucking diamond. Poch won't let it go will he, no matter how many times it fucks us up the arse. Just play a fucking 433 for fuck sake.
With the midfielders we have it's absolutely vital we play a a CM3 system to compensate for the various deficiencies they all have. And they need three ahead of them spread out more laterally to occupy opponents defenders and FB's, and they all need to start working cohesively without the ball as a group.
You've got Kane who is the ideal central fulcrum and players like Son, Lamela, Moura (Sessegnon to come in too) who would be much better as wide forwards, and would allow us to press in a better shape and help protect the FB areas. We could use Alli as a false 9 sometimes, or occasionally as an 8 if Ndombele, Lo Celso or Eriksen aren't available. But lets stop pretending he's composed enough to be a lone 10, the only season he looked good enough was when we played the 3421 and he had Eriksen up there next to him doing his thing.
APPLICATION
A lot has been written about our press, or lack thereof. We don't necessarily have to press like nutters for 90 minutes, in fact that's completely unrealistic, Klopp worked this out pretty quickly. But we need to start doing it again, and in a cohesive manner, game phases need to be managed so much better. Whether we are pressing high or alternating phases, those phases need to be coordinated, and it's never acceptable to just allow the opposition phases where no pressure is applied at all and the shape just drifts about like a fart in the fucking wind.
But again, Poch needs to start picking the right format and more importantly the right personnel to facilitate this. Big lumbering units that chug about, blowing hard after every sprint are counter productive. Stupid players, that struggle to read and coordinate offensive and defensive transitions are counter productive.
Poch has signed stupid athletes, has been asking them to do complicated things, and then bitches about a lack of intensity and intelligence.
CLUB
The biggest mistake Levy made was to make Poch the de facto "Manager" three years ago. I understand why it happened, at the time Poch's stock was top of the hip parade, everyone wanted him, to pacify him Levy gave him a mega pay rise and even more control over transfer strategy (maybe Poch was advised this was the way to go by his idol SAF) - this has backfired horribly. We've seen money wasted on dimwit athletes, we've seen contracts of pivotal players run down, we've seen favouritism and the dressing room leaders pandered to, whilst the academy has become almost an afterthought for the summer holiday tournaments and the odd away day in the Micky mouse cup.
More than anything, we need to revamp the whole structure of the club. We need to get a good DOF/Sporting Director in, get in a really good recruitment/analytics/scouting team. It's not all about spending big, it's about spending smart and making best use of resources on tap.
The player that put four past us last night cost Bayern 8m.
We are a team that is structurally poor, tactically confused, lethargic in our application. We have a manager who continues to pick players that don't suit his structure and tactics and whose naivety has often been shown up on the big occasions, in the last 12 months has been shown up by much humbler opponents.
This is not a simple problem of one player or one position or one area of the pitch.
The first 30 minutes were pretty good. We came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, we were pressing as a team pretty well, Winks was busying about, Ndombele was threading wonderful defence splitting passes, and even Sissoko looked vaguely like a footballer. The fact that they started in a 4231 helped too, as our 1+2 CM3, when it was in this early energy phase, could outnumber them.
But then it quickly fell apart, after 30 minutes we were fucking spent, people stopped pressing, stood off, stopped offering themselves up for the ball, as a result the shape started to get more exposed - particularly the right back zone - as the forward payers just fucking ambled about, and the spanking that many of us had said would happen if we pulled this shit against a "top" side finally materialised.
People are constantly latching onto to things like the fact that we don't have a proper DM or our RB isn't great (although we were assured by many that it was all Trippier's fault). Things don't go as progressively badly wrong as they have been going for the last 2 years because of just one or two personnel issues. City lost Fernandinho and their LB at times last couple of years, but they didn't just fucking melt into being shit everywhere. Bayern scored 5 goals playing without a pure DM and a pretty shit RB playing at LB in the second half. Because they at least have the fundamental basics endemically ingrained.
DM
Winks isn't always ideal in that 6/Hub role, but it's not that simple, it is compounded by having Sissoko out there as the 6/8 partner in a CM2, or as the 8 in the CM3, who doesn't want to show for the ball when we need outlets under pressure, and is generally so fucking slow at reading and reacting without out the ball. And now we have Ndombele out there too, with the ball he's excellent, without the ball he's got learning to do, also not the most defensively dynamic, and needs to be more proactive looking for it when we are playing out.
A perfect example (and I've posted stuff like this before as has
RESPECT THE COCK
demonstrating this) is the third goal. Winks makes the initial mistake of passing the ball back to Rose when he actually has time to turn. What happens then is that Sissoko sees what is happening but actively refuses to show for the ball, move toward Rose or move into a position where he can offer Rose or Winks an option, so Rose has no other option but to give it back to Winks (who is the only one prepared to offer himself up) who now has absolutely no options at all because Sissoko still hasn't read or moved into a position to receive the ball:First mistake - Winks goes backwards instead of forwards:
Winks move to receive the ball, Sissoko just stands there and fucking points (at fuck all as ever) so even when Rose does pass the ball to Winks, Sissoko doesn't even make himself available for the next phase - he just assumes it will "work itself out" if he points enough:
Now Winks has the ball, but with no options as Sissoko has made no effort to offer himself:
Result, Winks is pressed out of possession, and they score. Everyone blames Winks entirely, but he was just part of the clusterfuck, but the real problem is players like Winks not having options on the ball because others are fucking lazy or hiding, and that's become endemic at times in this midfield, and when your midfield isn't functioning, it's like a car with a fucked engine.
And Ndombele was just as guilty. He has to get more proactive in seeking out the ball in a team that wants to move the ball from front to back, and he's also got to get more diligent defensively. The thing with Sissoko is, he doesn't offer what Ndombele offers on the ball either.
So yes, Winks is definitely not ideal, I would dearly have loved us to buy a proper 6 in the last two windows, and I really don't think he's the future in this remit, but we also need to get the whole midfield balance right. We need three proper footballers in there, a good footballing busy cunting 6, with hopefully a developing Ndombele and scheming, more dynamic Lo Celso either side, rendering Winks a squad option.
RB
Another area of constant apoplexy. I said for the last two years that the issue is not Trippier per se. He wasn't perfect, definitely had some deficiencies, but the problem was clearly Poch's structure, tactical application and selections that were counter intuitive to the system he was insisting our FB's play.
Its being exposed even more now because Aurier doesn't have Trippier's brain or even Walker's recovery pace, which could compensate sometimes. Aurier does stupid things, and when Gnabry raced away for the third, he should not have dived in (just as he shouldn't have tugged Bertrand), he should have stayed on his feet and tried to catch him or put pressure on him - as Gnabry would eventually be a bit slower because he had to dribble with the ball and cut in - but the situation arose because Kane and Alli just fucking stood there and watched as the Bayern defenders knocked it around, then out to the LB.
If you are going to play the high line and push FB's up, then pressing up top is absolutely fucking fundamental. Or put a structure in place that compensates, preferably both. Otherwise you pull the CM's up and out of shape to press where the forwards should be and that leaves massive spaces, vertically and laterally for opponent AM's and forwards to get into - See the Newcastle goal.
You cannot play a high defensive line, ask your RB to push right up with your midfield and beyond and then not pressure the opposition on the ball - it will continually expose that full back zone.
So yes, Aurier is not the brightest, he's not ideal, but as we have seen, it doesn't matter who we play there, if Poch doesn't fucking wise up and get the structure and tactics right, the RB will continue to be exposed and bare the brunt of Poch's tactics.
SELECTIONS
You cannot keep picking players that are counter intuitive to the way you want to play as a collective. If you want to play out from the back and play through the opponent press - which more and more are doing now - you cannot have big dumb units that are uncomfortable under that press and lack the brains, 360 vision or technique to deal with it. This was true 3 years ago with Dier and it's even truer with Sissoko now. These players are also invariably spent after 30 minutes and just spend the rest of the game ambling about standing off, or in Dier's case retreating back int the CB's shorts.
Moura as a fucking CF. Offers absolutely nothing to team play in this role and just gets in Kane's way. Head down, scurry scurry then fuck all. CB's as fucking RB's. Alli bumbling about as the lone creative hub. CM2's against 433's. CM2’s like Winks/Sissoko that cannot play out and also aren’t defensively diligent enough to protect the cb’s whilst also covering advanced fb’s. The fucking wanky diamond. The wanky 442 when the wanky diamond fucks up. Stupid subs that make us worse not better.
FORMAT
Once again we got the fucking diamond. Poch won't let it go will he, no matter how many times it fucks us up the arse. Just play a fucking 433 for fuck sake.
With the midfielders we have it's absolutely vital we play a a CM3 system to compensate for the various deficiencies they all have. And they need three ahead of them spread out more laterally to occupy opponents defenders and FB's, and they all need to start working cohesively without the ball as a group.
You've got Kane who is the ideal central fulcrum and players like Son, Lamela, Moura (Sessegnon to come in too) who would be much better as wide forwards, and would allow us to press in a better shape and help protect the FB areas. We could use Alli as a false 9 sometimes, or occasionally as an 8 if Ndombele, Lo Celso or Eriksen aren't available. But lets stop pretending he's composed enough to be a lone 10, the only season he looked good enough was when we played the 3421 and he had Eriksen up there next to him doing his thing.
APPLICATION
A lot has been written about our press, or lack thereof. We don't necessarily have to press like nutters for 90 minutes, in fact that's completely unrealistic, Klopp worked this out pretty quickly. But we need to start doing it again, and in a cohesive manner, game phases need to be managed so much better. Whether we are pressing high or alternating phases, those phases need to be coordinated, and it's never acceptable to just allow the opposition phases where no pressure is applied at all and the shape just drifts about like a fart in the fucking wind.
But again, Poch needs to start picking the right format and more importantly the right personnel to facilitate this. Big lumbering units that chug about, blowing hard after every sprint are counter productive. Stupid players, that struggle to read and coordinate offensive and defensive transitions are counter productive.
Poch has signed stupid athletes, has been asking them to do complicated things, and then bitches about a lack of intensity and intelligence.
CLUB
The biggest mistake Levy made was to make Poch the de facto "Manager" three years ago. I understand why it happened, at the time Poch's stock was top of the hip parade, everyone wanted him, to pacify him Levy gave him a mega pay rise and even more control over transfer strategy (maybe Poch was advised this was the way to go by his idol SAF) - this has backfired horribly. We've seen money wasted on dimwit athletes, we've seen contracts of pivotal players run down, we've seen favouritism and the dressing room leaders pandered to, whilst the academy has become almost an afterthought for the summer holiday tournaments and the odd away day in the Micky mouse cup.
More than anything, we need to revamp the whole structure of the club. We need to get a good DOF/Sporting Director in, get in a really good recruitment/analytics/scouting team. It's not all about spending big, it's about spending smart and making best use of resources on tap.
The player that put four past us last night cost Bayern 8m.
Last edited:
I've said it from the start Winks is not a DM, not strong enough and does not sense danger,
why are all of Poch's right hand men sitting on the bench with him ? one needs to be up in the gods to see the way the game/positions are working, that way you can change format/tactics easy,
some managers now have a time or a signal for a player to go down injuried so he can talk to the team, lots of clubs now use drones in training to see whats going on all over the pitch, and thats what a guy in gods would be doing at the matches
why are all of Poch's right hand men sitting on the bench with him ? one needs to be up in the gods to see the way the game/positions are working, that way you can change format/tactics easy,
some managers now have a time or a signal for a player to go down injuried so he can talk to the team, lots of clubs now use drones in training to see whats going on all over the pitch, and thats what a guy in gods would be doing at the matches
I'm sorry but this would be the worst managing ever. Drop a young lad who is working his ass off and improving? He's not technically the best but he's a workman similar to a Jordan Henderson for me.
With all the shit going on, Harry winks being dropped isn't the answer.
The issue is our defence
So Sissoko admits what I’ve been arguing for ages. That diamond is killing us. To survive, Poch has to go back to what worked. 4231/433/343 with a pressing game. No more of this giant chasm between our defence and attack.
Admin
If
hiatus
wouldn't mind, maybe we could merge this into the existing TFC Tactical thread, just so it's all in one place ?
Tactics - TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread
WARNING THIS THREAD CONTAINS LANGUAGE THAT MAY BE DEEMED BLASPHEMOUS AND CONTAIN PHRASES THAT GO AGAINST PROPER FOOTBALL GEEZER GRAIN. IF THIS KIND OF THING PUTS A BUG UP YOUR ARSE, WORDS LIKE FORMATION, TACTICS, METRICS, STATS ETC MAKE YOUR SPHINCTER CLENCH, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FUCK OFF AND...
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