TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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as spurs fans we must ask the question, why oh why did poch not play moura instead of alli, moura is superior in all skills, and form is great when played, and other question why did he not demand that the fullbacks stay put in defence, with the odd venture forward ,when not leaving our flanks exposed, didnt you just love watching rose and aurier in shot running back, and poor verts and alde, having to face a speedy forward line one on one, due to the fullbacks going missing, poch please dont play aurier and rose ever again, they are not defenders, and we need real defenders.
 
Not even arguing half the stuff you've proffered in this one. Sure, I'm not saying bin Winks but as I said in the summer it would be ridiculous to place the expectations and workload of starting on him this season when we were talking about a 'painful rebuild'.

As you say about Dier and sissoko so goes for Winks in his respective position. He's good but he has not improved in his use of the ball and vision and is not 'at the level we are trying and aspiring to'. Backup was what he should have gone into the season as.

No one is arguing that dier and Sissoko are anything more than they are BUT they are what we have now and ain't nobody else coming through that door this season...except fucking dybala because he will fix what ails us :pochunimpressed: But Dier will sit, cover, and follow a runner or two thus providing some balance. That's what it's come to apparently.

And I will prefer to see Dier at the 6 with the new bodies before making a decision on whether Winks is the best of a bad bunch there. Winks is kind of a defensive headless chicken BC, still running around like a young player trying to impress his coach with effort instead of reading the game.

We both agree Winks isn't a 6. And if you give me a choice of Dier as a 6 or Sissoko anywhere in midfield I’ll reluctantly take it, but it’s not the way forward either.
 
graham roberts got it right about eriksen, if he doesnt want to be here, keep him away from the squad, hes just a hindrance now, and a negativity around the players.
 
As I said above, a future with a CM3 hopefully has Ndombele and Lo Celso as the 8’s either side of someone who can do the 6 job properly. But as a squad option, Winks would still be a shitload better as an 8 in a proper CM3 set up than Sissoko, as would Skipp. At least the pair of them aren’t scared of showing for the ball and can pass with their heads up under a bit of pressure. And both are nippy enough and have the energy you need to press properly in midfield.

Dier and Sissoko are not good enough technically or dynamic enough to play a pro-active brand of football at the level we are trying and aspiring to.

As I said with Trippier (when people mooted Dier, Foyth, Aurier etc) he’s not perfect but he’s better than most of the alternatives until we sign (or develop KWP) sometimes ne truly better.

Same with Winks, he’s not ideal but until Ndombele and LC are up and running, and we either sign or develop a proper 6, he’s definitely still a more viable option than big athletic donkeys clunking around where a midfield should be.

Chelsea finished above us with Jorginho playing the same role, and he’s as defensively challenged as Winks is.

But Poch has to wise the fuck up quick smart and start matching up his coaching, tactics and team selections.

Not my first choice, or even second, but I’d rather see Eriksen or Alli as 8’s than that fucking carthorse clumping around anymore. If we are going to lose games, let’s fucking lose them at least trying to play proper football.
I agree almost totally with this.

We need to ditch Sissoko entirely. He’s just not good enough. Winks can carry the ball, do the simple things and keep things ticking over. Not sure if he keeps his place when GLS finally appears. Ndombele can pretty much do the Dembele role though he is still running out of gas after about 60 minutes. The candidates for the other spot in a 4-3-3 are not great options. If Eriksen has motivation to play he is probably best used as one of the front 3 . We simply don’t have a Wanyama replacement.

In the circumstances a 3-4-2-1 wouldn’t be a bad idea especially when Sessegnon can play LWB.

Our defence is a mess. There isn’t one in the present back 4 that is doing their job. Aurier not good enough, Toby and Jan slowing up . The pace of Sanchez has to be used at some point. Rose is presently a complete liability.

I’d like to see

Lloris
Sanchez Alderweireld Vertonghen
KWP Winks/ Skipp Ndombele Sessegnon
Son Eriksen / GLS
Kane

What do you think ?
 
bus-conductor bus-conductor I am not sure how Man City pull it off week in and week out, but how do they achieve what they do with a midfield three of Gundogan, Rodri, and Kevin?

All are more 6s aren’t they and yet they win the ball back and keep the pressure off their CBs. This year they are weaker and I would say that could be linked with Rodri not being Fernandinho, but they are still strong in that area.

Is it the way they pull in an extra full back to cover for their maurading 6s? I feel with Winks, Ndombele, and even Sissoko, we should be able to win as many balls back as they do, so it comes down to full team application?

I agree that Winks is our best option to take the ball off the back and bring in play, but with our issues defensively and no sight of the whole team working together to win the ball back, I feel Dier is needed, thus my post of bringing him in to see if things change. He certainly worries me with the ball at his feet and with teams seeing is struggle they will turn up the heat even more, but I am at the point where it may need a run out.
 
This Bayern game was pretty much perfect for highlighting many of the issues that are wrong right now. You could run it as a power point demo to cover many of the bases.

We are a team that is structurally poor, tactically confused, lethargic in our application. We have a manager who continues to pick players that don't suit his structure and tactics and whose naivety has often been shown up on the big occasions, in the last 12 months has been shown up by much humbler opponents.

This is not a simple problem of one player or one position or one area of the pitch.

The first 30 minutes were pretty good. We came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, we were pressing as a team pretty well, Winks was busying about, Ndombele was threading wonderful defence splitting passes, and even Sissoko looked vaguely like a footballer. The fact that they started in a 4231 helped too, as our 1+2 CM3, when it was in this early energy phase, could outnumber them.

But then it quickly fell apart, after 30 minutes we were fucking spent, people stopped pressing, stood off, stopped offering themselves up for the ball, as a result the shape started to get more exposed - particularly the right back zone - as the forward payers just fucking ambled about, and the spanking that many of us had said would happen if we pulled this shit against a "top" side finally materialised.

People are constantly latching onto to things like the fact that we don't have a proper DM or our RB isn't great (although we were assured by many that it was all Trippier's fault). Things don't go as progressively badly wrong as they have been going for the last 2 years because of just one or two personnel issues. City lost Fernandinho and their LB at times last couple of years, but they didn't just fucking melt into being shit everywhere. Bayern scored 5 goals playing without a pure DM and a pretty shit RB playing at LB in the second half. Because they at least have the fundamental basics endemically ingrained.

DM

Winks isn't always ideal in that 6/Hub role, but it's not that simple, it is compounded by having Sissoko out there as the 6/8 partner in a CM2, or as the 8 in the CM3, who doesn't want to show for the ball when we need outlets under pressure, and is generally so fucking slow at reading and reacting without out the ball. And now we have Ndombele out there too, with the ball he's excellent, without the ball he's got learning to do, also not the most defensively dynamic, and needs to be more proactive looking for it when we are playing out.

A perfect example (and I've posted stuff like this before as has RESPECT THE COCK RESPECT THE COCK demonstrating this) is the third goal. Winks makes the initial mistake of passing the ball back to Rose when he actually has time to turn. What happens then is that Sissoko sees what is happening but actively refuses to show for the ball, move toward Rose or move into a position where he can offer Rose or Winks an option, so Rose has no other option but to give it back to Winks (who is the only one prepared to offer himself up) who now has absolutely no options at all because Sissoko still hasn't read or moved into a position to receive the ball:

First mistake - Winks goes backwards instead of forwards:
mY7FWwx.png


Winks move to receive the ball, Sissoko just stands there and fucking points (at fuck all as ever) so even when Rose does pass the ball to Winks, Sissoko doesn't even make himself available for the next phase - he just assumes it will "work itself out" if he points enough:
44XnJ1W.jpg


Now Winks has the ball, but with no options as Sissoko has made no effort to offer himself:
tONtgXa.jpg


Result, Winks is pressed out of possession, and they score. Everyone blames Winks entirely, but he was just part of the clusterfuck, but the real problem is players like Winks not having options on the ball because others are fucking lazy or hiding, and that's become endemic at times in this midfield, and when your midfield isn't functioning, it's like a car with a fucked engine.

And Ndombele was just as guilty. He has to get more proactive in seeking out the ball in a team that wants to move the ball from front to back, and he's also got to get more diligent defensively. The thing with Sissoko is, he doesn't offer what Ndombele offers on the ball either.

So yes, Winks is definitely not ideal, I would dearly have loved us to buy a proper 6 in the last two windows, and I really don't think he's the future in this remit, but we also need to get the whole midfield balance right. We need three proper footballers in there, a good footballing busy cunting 6, with hopefully a developing Ndombele and scheming, more dynamic Lo Celso either side, rendering Winks a squad option.

RB

Another area of constant apoplexy. I said for the last two years that the issue is not Trippier per se. He wasn't perfect, definitely had some deficiencies, but the problem was clearly Poch's structure, tactical application and selections that were counter intuitive to the system he was insisting our FB's play.

Its being exposed even more now because Aurier doesn't have Trippier's brain or even Walker's recovery pace, which could compensate sometimes. Aurier does stupid things, and when Gnabry raced away for the third, he should not have dived in (just as he shouldn't have tugged Bertrand), he should have stayed on his feet and tried to catch him or put pressure on him - as Gnabry would eventually be a bit slower because he had to dribble with the ball and cut in - but the situation arose because Kane and Alli just fucking stood there and watched as the Bayern defenders knocked it around, then out to the LB.

If you are going to play the high line and push FB's up, then pressing up top is absolutely fucking fundamental. Or put a structure in place that compensates, preferably both. Otherwise you pull the CM's up and out of shape to press where the forwards should be and that leaves massive spaces, vertically and laterally for opponent AM's and forwards to get into - See the Newcastle goal.

You cannot play a high defensive line, ask your RB to push right up with your midfield and beyond and then not pressure the opposition on the ball - it will continually expose that full back zone.

So yes, Aurier is not the brightest, he's not ideal, but as we have seen, it doesn't matter who we play there, if Poch doesn't fucking wise up and get the structure and tactics right, the RB will continue to be exposed and bare the brunt of Poch's tactics.

SELECTIONS

You cannot keep picking players that are counter intuitive to the way you want to play as a collective. If you want to play out from the back and play through the opponent press - which more and more are doing now - you cannot have big dumb units that are uncomfortable under that press and lack the brains, 360 vision or technique to deal with it. This was true 3 years ago with Dier and it's even truer with Sissoko now. These players are also invariably spent after 30 minutes and just spend the rest of the game ambling about standing off, or in Dier's case retreating back int the CB's shorts.

Moura as a fucking CF. Offers absolutely nothing to team play in this role and just gets in Kane's way. Head down, scurry scurry then fuck all. CB's as fucking RB's. Alli bumbling about as the lone creative hub. CM2's against 433's. CM2’s like Winks/Sissoko that cannot play out and also aren’t defensively diligent enough to protect the cb’s whilst also covering advanced fb’s. The fucking wanky diamond. The wanky 442 when the wanky diamond fucks up. Stupid subs that make us worse not better.


FORMAT

Once again we got the fucking diamond. Poch won't let it go will he, no matter how many times it fucks us up the arse. Just play a fucking 433 for fuck sake.

With the midfielders we have it's absolutely vital we play a a CM3 system to compensate for the various deficiencies they all have. And they need three ahead of them spread out more laterally to occupy opponents defenders and FB's, and they all need to start working cohesively without the ball as a group.

You've got Kane who is the ideal central fulcrum and players like Son, Lamela, Moura (Sessegnon to come in too) who would be much better as wide forwards, and would allow us to press in a better shape and help protect the FB areas. We could use Alli as a false 9 sometimes, or occasionally as an 8 if Ndombele, Lo Celso or Eriksen aren't available. But lets stop pretending he's composed enough to be a lone 10, the only season he looked good enough was when we played the 3421 and he had Eriksen up there next to him doing his thing.


APPLICATION

A lot has been written about our press, or lack thereof. We don't necessarily have to press like nutters for 90 minutes, in fact that's completely unrealistic, Klopp worked this out pretty quickly. But we need to start doing it again, and in a cohesive manner, game phases need to be managed so much better. Whether we are pressing high or alternating phases, those phases need to be coordinated, and it's never acceptable to just allow the opposition phases where no pressure is applied at all and the shape just drifts about like a fart in the fucking wind.

But again, Poch needs to start picking the right format and more importantly the right personnel to facilitate this. Big lumbering units that chug about, blowing hard after every sprint are counter productive. Stupid players, that struggle to read and coordinate offensive and defensive transitions are counter productive.

Poch has signed stupid athletes, has been asking them to do complicated things, and then bitches about a lack of intensity and intelligence.

CLUB

The biggest mistake Levy made was to make Poch the de facto "Manager" three years ago. I understand why it happened, at the time Poch's stock was top of the hip parade, everyone wanted him, to pacify him Levy gave him a mega pay rise and even more control over transfer strategy (maybe Poch was advised this was the way to go by his idol SAF) - this has backfired horribly. We've seen money wasted on dimwit athletes, we've seen contracts of pivotal players run down, we've seen favouritism and the dressing room leaders pandered to, whilst the academy has become almost an afterthought for the summer holiday tournaments and the odd away day in the Micky mouse cup.

More than anything, we need to revamp the whole structure of the club. We need to get a good DOF/Sporting Director in, get in a really good recruitment/analytics/scouting team. It's not all about spending big, it's about spending smart and making best use of resources on tap.

The player that put four past us last night cost Bayern 8m.
Agree with a ton of this. What would you say our best XI and formation is right now?
 
We both agree Winks isn't a 6. And if you give me a choice of Dier as a 6 or Sissoko anywhere in midfield I’ll reluctantly take it, but it’s not the way forward either.
...It's may be the way forward right now. And that's all that important. It's not about Dier's (I'm not arguing Sissoko here) intrinsic qualities and unless he comes out and pulls a...Senna, let's say, :pochsmirk:I think he should be moved on as I have since his ManU dalliance and Liverpool displays. What I am arguing is for what it may do for the rest of the team/balance.

But if Dier's on the naughty step or Poch decides to persist with the diamond then none of this is valid.
 
bus-conductor bus-conductor I am not sure how Man City pull it off week in and week out, but how do they achieve what they do with a midfield three of Gundogan, Rodri, and Kevin?

All are more 6s aren’t they and yet they win the ball back and keep the pressure off their CBs. This year they are weaker and I would say that could be linked with Rodri not being Fernandinho, but they are still strong in that area.

Is it the way they pull in an extra full back to cover for their maurading 6s? I feel with Winks, Ndombele, and even Sissoko, we should be able to win as many balls back as they do, so it comes down to full team application?

I agree that Winks is our best option to take the ball off the back and bring in play, but with our issues defensively and no sight of the whole team working together to win the ball back, I feel Dier is needed, thus my post of bringing him in to see if things change. He certainly worries me with the ball at his feet and with teams seeing is struggle they will turn up the heat even more, but I am at the point where it may need a run out.

Rodrigo and Fernandinho are 6’s, but real footballing ones, Gundogan more a 6/8 hybrid, KDB is an 8, as are the Silva’s when Guardiola uses them either side of Fernandinho or Rodrigo - prior to Guardiola, KDB, the Silva’s were more AM’s.

City works because Guardiola is a more intelligent coach and he is working with more intelligent footballers.
 
Rodrigo and Fernandinho are 6’s, but real footballing ones, Gundogan more a 6/8 hybrid, KDB is an 8, as are the Silva’s when Guardiola uses them either side of Fernandinho or Rodrigo - prior to Guardiola, KDB, the Silva’s were more AM’s.

City works because Guardiola is a more intelligent coach and he is working with more intelligent footballers.
That and money.
 
City works because Guardiola is a more intelligent coach and he is working with more intelligent footballers.
It's not just this. Almost every player they have is technically sound. We have few players with any semblance of a reliable touch or pass, even worse under mild pressure. You can be the most intelligent footballer ever but if you cannot control a ball, recognize and utilize time and space (a fx of controlling a ball and intelligence), or reliably deliver a ball then your intelligence is worth squat.

Beyond Ndombele, who can be doubled/tripled just like Mousa was, I would pray that 1 of our MFers received the ball in the middle of the field were I an opposition coach. These are obvious exploits.

Both City and Pool can be gotten at but ours and other teams have not been constructed to do such. And you also neglect the factor of attacking threat and how that weighs on a defensive setup. There is only 1 player in our setup that is dynamic enough to actually worry an opposing coach. Both City and Pool have 3 on the field at all times.

That and money.
Money is a means. It has no direct effect at the pointy end of things.
 
It's not just this. Almost every player they have is technically sound. We have few players with any semblance of a reliable touch or pass, even worse until mild pressure. You can be the most intelligent footballer ever but if you cannot control a ball, recognize and utilize time and space (a fx of controlling a ball and intelligence), or reliably deliver a ball then your intelligence is worth squat.

Beyond Ndombele, who can be doubled/tripled just like Mousa was, I would pray that 1 of our MFers received the ball in the middle of the field were I an opposition coach. These are obvious exploits.

Both City and Pool can be gotten at but ours and other teams have not been constructed to do such. And you also neglect the factor of attacking threat and how that weighs on a defensive setup. There is only 1 player in our setup that is dynamic enough to actually worry an opposing coach. Both City and Pool have 3 on the field at all times.


Money is a means. It has no direct effect at the pointy end of things.
Well, ya, but it helps. Otherwise what are people telling Levy to spend money on. And pay wages to.
 
Well, ya, but it helps. Otherwise what are people telling Levy to spend money on. And pay wages to.
Well, those less-informed people believe money spent to be an end in itself. Every player that is a somebody now was a nobody previously. There are talented players that are technically sound enough to play in guardiola's team that are unknown's right now. Just because he goes for the known quantities doesn't mean it's the money that's the driver of things. Bigger names are bigger brands and thus cost more in the transfer market.

Guardiola was impressed by Houssem Aouar (and Ndom) when they played Lyon in the CL. But by the time he gets around to buying him it will be 2-3 seasons of further establishment for the player ie more costly. That doesn't mean the talent wasn't there when he would have been less expensive. I applaud City's recruitment. Sure they have a 50M player at every position but few have been the 'it' player when purchased. Conversely, RM, Barca, and ManU have been flailing in the market while spending bigger numbers on 'it' players. Look at BVB's recruitment and there you have the model by which we should function. But I have no idea what our model is. It sure as fuck isn't addressing our weaknesses.

It's scouting and good player assessment that will make money less of a factor. Our scouting/assessment has been shit.

edit: rando idiot poster's money plan is just like the underpants gnomes business model

Step 1: spend money Levy, throw it into the ether!!!!!!!!!
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Silverware
 
A few people putting Lo Celso into CM , which is where he played at PSG and looked "ok" but at Real Betis I think he's played further forward as an AM - and looked far better further forward.

Whilst I know we have issues at CM, we equally have issues in the AM positions with Dele our of form, Eriksen much less effective and Moura not playing as a winger but often trying to be in the same positions as Kane, so that he's not as effective as he might be. Effective off the bench but not as a starter.

So to partner Kane up front we have Son and Lamela ( who fortunately has stayed fit for longer than most of the previous few seasons,).

At CM we have Ndombele who looks class but still learning defensive duties and has problems atm after 60 mins, Winks who is a very willing recycler and learning defensive duties who could both do with being partnered by Dier who looked fit (admittedly against Colchester but better start somewhere) defensively is strong. The three together are good, the first two might be fine against lesser sides but against better sides it's a CM 3 for me atm.

Sissoko is good driving forward but no end product so I'd prefer him as a sub. Skill also needs to play as over time he could be a realistic alternative - just a question of getting Poch to play him on a regular basis in selected games and probably often off the bench.

So in short - suggest Lo Celso plays as an AM where he was most effective at Real Betis rather than as a CM where he was average - and hence the loan to Real Betis where he made his name.


Fort what it's worth, I think Lo Celso was very good as a CM/8 for PSG (they even had him playing as the 6/DM a couple of times - not so ideal) and this is personally where I'd like to see him play, but only as an 8, and only if we play a CM3. Him and Ndombele either side of a proper 6 should, in theory, be the dream ticket as a midfield.

I'm hoping (maybe forlornly) we move to a 433, in that system, Lo Celso really doesn't fit as a wide forward. But we do already have Son, Lamela, Moura and Sessegnon who could fill those wide attacking remits.

Then we'd have New 6/DM, Skipp, Winks, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Alli (at a push), Eriksen (until he fucks off) to populate the midfield.
 
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