TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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Inside Tottenham's collapse: Tensions grow as players question Pochettino's tactics

Sources have told ESPN FC that some senior players are not happy with the tactical systems, starting with the diamond midfield 4-3-1-2, recently used by Pochettino. It enables Son Heung Min and Harry Kane to play together up front but the midfield is more exposed, as are the flanks, and Spurs have only kept two clean sheets this season (against Crystal Palace and Colchester) in 10 matches in all competitions.

Then there is the flat 4-4-2, also used this season, which left Tottenham too weak in central midfield, as we saw against Woolwich. Against Bayern, Pochettino started with a 4-3-1-2 and then moved to a 4-4-2 after 30 minutes when his team started to struggle. Neither worked. "We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

The players also don't understand why Pochettino has told them to dial back the pressing, a tactic that was a success last season.
 
We played our best football in recent years with a 4-2-3-1, pressing high (and from the front) and overwhelming teams. From that “era” (it’s been a couple of years lol), only two main players from that have left, Walker and Dembele. I don’t understand why we suddenly starting pissing around with this cunting diamond. It does not work.
 
Murphy said:
We played our best football in recent years with a 4-2-3-1, pressing high (and from the front) and overwhelming teams. From that “era” (it’s been a couple of years lol), only two main players from that have left, Walker and Dembele. I don’t understand why we suddenly starting pissing around with this cunting diamond. It does not work.
Click to expand...

4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 are all better options with our current players.

If you have weak FBs (we do) or no real CDM (we don't) then you have no business playing a diamond
 
I am not furball expert, have a question:
Is 3 at the back suited when playing against stronger teams when on the back foot defending for most of the match while 2 at the back more suited against equal or lesser teams?
 
Let's look at the goals conceded this season so far:

1- Aston Villa - McGinn -ball over the top from deep in their half. Didn't track runner

2 - Man City - Sterling, cross from relatively deep, nipped in back post

3- Man City - Aguero - cross from byline, tap in

4 - Newcastle - Joelinton - cross from relatively deep, caught flat footed

5 - Woolwich - Lacazette defensive error Winks, tried passing out got caught

6 - Woolwich - Aubemayang - cross from relatively deep, caught around the back

7 - Olympiakos - Podensa - give and go down our left, flat footed Davies lost his man

8- Olympiakos - Valbuena Pen - defensive error Eriksen, passing out from back & got caught, Vertonghen lunged in and gave away cheap penalty.

9- Leicester - Ricardo - Ball lost via Sissoko. Aurier didn't track back, cross and tap in

10 - Leicester - Maddison - ball lost by Wanyama, long range effort Maddison

11 - Southampton - Ings - pass back and calamity by Lloris

12 - Bayern - Kimmich, Rose didn't track back but it was a good goal, no complaints

13- Bayern - Lewandowski - Ndombele should have cleared didn't, lost possession

14- Bayern - Gnabry - Aurier lunged in, missed his tackle nd left Gnabry vs Toby

15- Bayern- Gnabry - Winks loses possession in dangerous are, punished instantly

16- Bayern - Gnabry - ball over the top, Aurier didn't track back, great finish 1v1

17- Bayern - Lewandowski - Alderweireld poor pass out from back, easy goal

18- Bayern - Gnabry - Aurier poor pass out from back, easy goal


18 goals conceded. 2 from deep balls over the top from their defence, 3 from relatively deep crosses from the wing around the back of our defence, 2 byline tap ins, 8 (EIGHT!!) conceded trying to pass out from the back (9 if you include Lloris's error against the Saints) and a few through Aurier and Rose not tracking their runners.

Our issues are defensive. We have lost possession in our own half, leading to goals scored 9 times in 9 games. Add to that the 2 long balls from deep (McGinn & Gnabry) as well as the relatively deep crosses that have led to similar goals against Sterling, Joelinton and Aubemayang and that simp,y isn't good enough.

Nine times we've been caught short trying to pas out from the back this season alone! (Lacazette, Valbuena penalty, Ricardo, Maddison, Ings, Lewandowski, Gnabry, Lewandowski, Gnabry). We are haemorrhaging goals with purely lax and casual mindsets. 3-4 of those goals given up were on the edge of our box (Lacazette, Valbuena pen, Lewandowski 1st goal) all came from dangerous moments when we had won possession back, only to choose to pass out instead of clear our lines.

The breakdown of our goals conceded leaves me feeling that we need to get back to basics and just clear our lines. Do that and switch on more when it comes to deep crosses (we've conceded 5 from balls played into our box from further than 25 yards out of goal) and we will steady the ship.

The amount of errors we make are what holds us back. They need to respect the opposition more!

NINE mistakes passing out at the back, TWO long range passes from defence, THREE mid deep crosses around the back and FOUR through fullbacks not tracking their runner. Shocking!

On THREE occasions we have conceded in the 45th minute this season, an drew on THREE occasions we have conceded within 10 minutes of the 2nd half starting. Brain farts all over the joint,we need to snap out of it!!!
 
Last edited:
Macch said:
4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 are all better options with our current players.

If you have weak FBs (we do) or no real CDM (we don't) then you have no business playing a diamond
Click to expand...
Poch seems to be emphasizing our weaknesses and minimizing our strengths with his tactical decisions. It's baffling. I'm not expecting Spurs to play the same way every match because we need to rotate and adjust based on healthy players, opponent, etc.. but it seems like we don't have any continuity in general approach from match to match except chaos.
 
I look at Man City as a benchmark when I think of how a team should set up. Liverpool as well.

Pep or Klopp have used a more football focused DM when building their midfield. Not a out and out destroyer that we have typically rolled out. Fernandinho is a DM, but he is a far superior footballer. Basquets isn’t a Sandro, just a genius at reading angles and supremely comfortable on the ball. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho all are fighters and energetic cunts.

I am not a fan of Dier in the midfield but he may be our closest option in creating some havoc in the middle third cause right now we are being walked passed.

Which leads me right into formation. The diamond is shit or at least for the squad we have. Aging and idiotic full back play, coupled with tired legs in midfield make it incredibly difficult to cover the wide open flanks.

A 442 could work with this side, but Poch has rarely deployed it.

The 4231 did wonders when we had maurading full backs and Dier/Wanyama and Demebele more or less hung out in the middle third, protecting Jan and Toby.

With our current situation at FB and who we have at our disposal I advocate for either a 433 or a 352.

433

Lloris
KWP Toby Jan Davies
Lo Celso Dier Ndombele
Lamela Kane Son
​
This rolls out like City more or less. Dier sits with the back two, one fullback tucks in to add midfield cover and the rest find space up field. Watch City and either Zenchenko of Walker tend to walk infield if the other is making a move up the flank.
Lo Celso and Ndombele are playing a bit more centrally and Lamela and Son are spreading the field on the flanks.

352

Lloris
Dier Toby Jan
KWP Lo Celso Winks Ndombele Davies
Son Kane
​
Similar ideas here to the 433 but the fullbacks are both vertical and Winks sits back a bit to give cover to a back three.

Either way, we have to strengthen our spine and at this point we are looking at Dier. Sissoko for all his physical attributes worries me more than Dier in this role. Dier knows it and should be able to help us control some of those holes.

The January window is being thought of as a big one, and nothing is bigger than continuing to build a midfield. We do need some fresh faces and would love to see the newly extended Sissoko, Eriksen, And Wanyama replaced asap.

Edit: I can’t beleive I forgot to say this, but the high intensity game must come back for large stretches of games. We were on it all first half against Palace. They were dead. We launched it for a bit against Southampton and were ahead. We trotted it out yesterday and were on top of bayern even though we were also very open.

We need to start beating teams up by winning the ball up the pitch and cashing in on their mistakes. That is what the opposition is doing to us. As Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain says we have given our opposition 9 goals from turnovers in our own half. We need to be doing that.

The counter attack is an amazing weapon and produces some of the most breath taking goals. But we can’t just be a soak up the pressure and launch type of team.
 
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Cravenspurs said:
I look at Man City as a benchmark when I think of how a team should set up. Liverpool as well.

Pep or Klopp have used a more football focused DM when building their midfield. Not a out and out destroyer that we have typically rolled out. Fernandinho is a DM, but he is a far superior footballer. Basquets isn’t a Sandro, just a genius at reading angles and supremely comfortable on the ball. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho all are fighters and energetic cunts.

I am not a fan of Dier in the midfield but he may be our closest option in creating some havoc in the middle third cause right now we are being walked passed.

Which leads me right into formation. The diamond is shit or at least for the squad we have. Aging and idiotic full back play, coupled with tired legs in midfield make it incredibly difficult to cover the wide open flanks.

A 442 could work with this side, but Poch has rarely deployed it.

The 4231 did wonders when we had maurading full backs and Dier/Wanyama and Demebele more or less hung out in the middle third, protecting Jan and Toby.

With our current situation at FB and who we have at our disposal I advocate for either a 433 or a 352.

433

Lloris
KWP Toby Jan Davies
Lo Celso Dier Ndombele
Lamela Kane Son
​
This rolls out like City more or less. Dier sits with the back two, one fullback tucks in to add midfield cover and the rest find space up field. Watch City and either Zenchenko of Walker tend to walk infield if the other is making a move up the flank.
Lo Celso and Ndombele are playing a bit more centrally and Lamela and Son are spreading the field on the flanks.

352

Lloris
Dier Toby Jan
KWP Lo Celso Winks Ndombele Davies
Son Kane
​
Similar ideas here to the 433 but the fullbacks are both vertical and Winks sits back a bit to give cover to a back three.

Either way, we have to strengthen our spine and at this point we are lolimg at Dier. Sissoko for all his physical attributes worries me more than Dier in this role. Dier knows it and should be able to help us control some of those holes.

The January window is being thought of as a big one, and nothing is bigger than continuing to build a midfield. We do need some fresh faces and would love to see the newly extended Sissoko, Eriksen, And Wanyama replaced asap.

Edit: I can’t beleive I forgot to say this, but the high intensity game must come back for large stretches of games. We were on it all first half against Palace. They were dead. We launched it for a bit against Southampton and were ahead. We trotted it out yesterday and were on top of bayern even though we were also very open.

We need to start beating teams up by winning the ball up the pitch and cashing in on their mistakes. That is what the opposition is doing to us. As Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain says we have given our opposition 9 goals from turnovers in our own half. We need to be doing that.

The counter attack is an amazing weapon and produces some of the most breath taking goals. But we can’t just be a soak up the pressure and launch type of team.
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On your second point, I think with Lo Celso and Ndombele in the middle in front of a back 3, we could drop Winks altogether and put Dele/Lamela/Eriksen up top with Kane and Son and go to a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1

Honestly, with KWP and Sessegnon on the roster, a 3-4-3 makes a ton of sense in, like, January. For now 4-2-3-1 would solve a lot of problems, or a 4-3-3 with Dier providing covers and Winks and Ndombele next to him.
 
Whole defence needs a shuffle.
Rose, Jan, Toby and Aurier all playing so so poor. Three of them has checked out the other doesn't seemed to have checked in.

Put Dier RB, Sanchez CB priority ahead of anyone. Maybe use Foyth to put some pressure on the other two to start performing.
Unfortunately Sessegnon is unfit and Davies not good enough. Love Danny to bits but he's just not there so far for me this season.

The 6 ahead yesterday were good. Alli is lacking match fitness but we need to persevere, he is dangerous and our best creative outlet if Eriksen isn't there.

To his credit, Eriksen did try yesterday. He's putting in the yards and I feel he wanted to go Madrid but has taken a dip in confidence by them not showing much interest this season. If this is his last season as it clearly is, you could argue he will put in his best and show confidence again if he just keeps his head down.

Harry Kane. We are just not using him to his full potential. We're not getting enough chances to him, he feeds of scraps most games for me.

I like the 4-3-3 but most teams play with a holding mid who I see as winks, and two fairly creative midfielders. Ndombele and sissoko aren't creative enough together. I'd like to see Ndombele and Eriksen or Alli in front of winks.
Lucas on the left, son right and kane in the middle.
Lamela has an argument for a starting place right now but how we've treated Lucas is criminal to me.
 
BF3 said:
On your second point, I think with Lo Celso and Ndombele in the middle in front of a back 3, we could drop Winks altogether and put Dele/Lamela/Eriksen up top with Kane and Son and go to a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1

Honestly, with KWP and Sessegnon on the roster, a 3-4-3 makes a ton of sense in, like, January. For now 4-2-3-1 would solve a lot of problems, or a 4-3-3 with Dier providing covers and Winks and Ndombele next to him.
Click to expand...

I do worry about a bit too much forward movement from Lo Celso and Ndombele if they are the central two. But I would be open to seeing it role out.

We need to give KWP and Sess the reigns imo. If this is a rebuilding year like Poch eludes to, them give some of the younger players a chance to make it their own.
 
Cravenspurs said:
I do worry about a bit too much forward movement from Lo Celso and Ndombele if they are the central two. But I would be open to seeing it role out.

We need to give KWP and Sess the reigns imo. If this is a rebuilding year like Poch eludes to, them give some of the younger players a chance to make it their own.
Click to expand...

Which is why we should see what we really have with Foyth and Sanchez.

Let's just get this rebuild going. Give Sanchez and Foyth playing time at their NATURAL center-back positions.

Have Dier sit as CDM in front of them or in a back 3.

Stop player people out of position. It's doing way more harm than good.
 
Macch said:
Which is why we should see what we really have with Foyth and Sanchez.

Let's just get this rebuild going. Give Sanchez and Foyth playing time at their NATURAL center-back positions.

Have Dier sit as CDM in front of them or in a back 3.

Stop player people out of position. It's doing way more harm than good.
Click to expand...

I just wish we had a true DM so we didn’t trot Dier out there who is a our CB and his developement in that position has been stalled due to his DM days.
 
3c6rfo.jpg


Simple really :thumbup:
 
Cravenspurs said:
I do worry about a bit too much forward movement from Lo Celso and Ndombele if they are the central two. But I would be open to seeing it role out.

We need to give KWP and Sess the reigns imo. If this is a rebuilding year like Poch eludes to, them give some of the younger players a chance to make it their own.
Click to expand...
Agree. If we are going to have to struggle I'd rather blood the young players. Another good reason to have a back 3 as it gets Sanchez out there alot. Need him to get game time.
 
Lilywhite9 said:
Whole defence needs a shuffle.
Rose, Jan, Toby and Aurier all playing so so poor. Three of them has checked out the other doesn't seemed to have checked in.

Put Dier RB, Sanchez CB priority ahead of anyone. Maybe use Foyth to put some pressure on the other two to start performing.
Unfortunately Sessegnon is unfit and Davies not good enough. Love Danny to bits but he's just not there so far for me this season.

The 6 ahead yesterday were good. Alli is lacking match fitness but we need to persevere, he is dangerous and our best creative outlet if Eriksen isn't there.

To his credit, Eriksen did try yesterday. He's putting in the yards and I feel he wanted to go Madrid but has taken a dip in confidence by them not showing much interest this season. If this is his last season as it clearly is, you could argue he will put in his best and show confidence again if he just keeps his head down.

Harry Kane. We are just not using him to his full potential. We're not getting enough chances to him, he feeds of scraps most games for me.

I like the 4-3-3 but most teams play with a holding mid who I see as winks, and two fairly creative midfielders. Ndombele and sissoko aren't creative enough together. I'd like to see Ndombele and Eriksen or Alli in front of winks.
Lucas on the left, son right and kane in the middle.
Lamela has an argument for a starting place right now but how we've treated Lucas is criminal to me.
Click to expand...
Winks as holding mid is like half our problem right now. His defensive positioning/instincts are just not good enough for a 6, and Toby/Jan are not the Toby and Jan from 2-3 years ago to make up for it.
 
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