TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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I don't think that is quite right, because they generally played a high defensive line. Perhaps they did not attack in numbers, but that's a slightly different matter.
I think their line definitely got deeper and deeper as the second half wore on, and there was virtually no high pressing second half. I looked at things like tackle events, and their only two successful tackles second half for example were just over the half way line.
 

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'full back less' 3-5-2 formation.

There seems to be a lot made of the full back role in the modern game, so I thought about what would happen if a team didn't play any lol.



That formation would require:

two centre backs that are able to play / cover the full back position (vertonghen / alderweireld)

a defensive midfielder that could drop into the back three to create a back four as well as shield the centre backs (dier)

both the 4 and the 8 need to be good on the ball, contribute defensively and be able to transition defensive into attack, break pressing lines (winks / sissoko)

a number 10 that could drop back and add to the numbers in the middle of the field when the opposite has the ball (dele)

two, speedy 'wingers' that could cover the flanks, as a modern day full back is supposed to (son / moura)

a number 9 with decent hold up play, good on the ball (kane)
 
'full back less' 3-5-2 formation.

There seems to be a lot made of the full back role in the modern game, so I thought about what would happen if a team didn't play any lol.



That formation would require:

two centre backs that are able to play / cover the full back position (vertonghen / alderweireld)

a defensive midfielder that could drop into the back three to create a back four as well as shield the centre backs (dier)

both the 4 and the 8 need to be good on the ball, contribute defensively and be able to transition defensive into attack, break pressing lines (winks / sissoko)

a number 10 that could drop back and add to the numbers in the middle of the field when the opposite has the ball (dele)

two, speedy 'wingers' that could cover the flanks, as a modern day full back is supposed to (son / moura)

a number 9 with decent hold up play, good on the ball (kane)
The way teams like us (City) play, even with 2 CB’s, our full backs aren’t really part of a back 4, they are part of the midfield in terms of where they spend most of their time.

Now, with City, that makes a midfield 5 in defence and 3 in attack (or without/withthe ball). In our case in often meant a 4 without 2 with. (Just I’m overly simplistic terms for the sake of this example)

So you can see how we expose fb’s more than any other team in this league (Liverpool also usually play a CM3 like City)

Also, Big flaw in your model, Sissoko (and Dier) are terrible in terms of transition (neither want the ball under pressure or play quick, incisive passes).

Can I ask where you got or did your diagram?
 
Also, Big flaw in your model, Sissoko (and Dier) are terrible in terms of transition (neither want the ball under pressure or play quick, incisive passes).

Can I ask where you got or did your diagram?
didn't want to turn every thread into a transfer thread so i only included the players we currently have. there are many names that could replace sissoko in the number 4 role to better transition the ball. number 6 wouldn't have that responsibility

 
'full back less' 3-5-2 formation.

There seems to be a lot made of the full back role in the modern game, so I thought about what would happen if a team didn't play any lol.



That formation would require:

two centre backs that are able to play / cover the full back position (vertonghen / alderweireld)

a defensive midfielder that could drop into the back three to create a back four as well as shield the centre backs (dier)

both the 4 and the 8 need to be good on the ball, contribute defensively and be able to transition defensive into attack, break pressing lines (winks / sissoko)

a number 10 that could drop back and add to the numbers in the middle of the field when the opposite has the ball (dele)

two, speedy 'wingers' that could cover the flanks, as a modern day full back is supposed to (son / moura)

a number 9 with decent hold up play, good on the ball (kane)
worked nicely with Ajax mid 90s - they had exactly the right players though...
 
worked nicely with Ajax mid 90s - they had exactly the right players though...
you could argue that we have the right players, depending on lo celso for the number 4, transition role....


the 'weaker' or should i say; unproven, would be sessegnon and edwards. you could also add skipp and onomah. they would very much be our second string so to speak.

i do think mr x will be an important signing however, which could plug a few gaps.

the back three are perfect (vertonghen, alderweireld and sanchez), moura and son have the pace and if they can contribute defensively, they would also work. dele and kane have the minerals, as would winks and lo celso. sissoko not so much (i did think he could make an excellent ball recycler mind, in the number 6 role, as would dier
 
Only Man City had a higher XG (3.16) so far this weekend than us (2.57) (Liverpool 1.68) and nobody has a better XG against than the (0.64) we limited Villa to. and that was half our average per game for last season.
 
Only Man City had a higher XG (3.16) so far this weekend than us (2.57) (Liverpool 1.68) and nobody has a better XG against than the (0.64) we limited Villa to. and that was half our average per game for last season.
Surprised Liverpool was so low - I watched much of the game on a Friday and in the first half they were all over Norwich and the 4-0 at half time didn't flatter them. In the 2nd half Norwich were certainly better organised and trying to compete better and didn't give Liverpool time on the ball so Liverpool fluffed a number of decent chances in 2nd half.

Spurs seemed to be generally in control without doing anything to make it count pretty much until Eriksen came on, although we had looked better in 2nd half before he came on too.
 
Surprised Liverpool was so low - I watched much of the game on a Friday and in the first half they were all over Norwich and the 4-0 at half time didn't flatter them. In the 2nd half Norwich were certainly better organised and trying to compete better and didn't give Liverpool time on the ball so Liverpool fluffed a number of decent chances in 2nd half.

Spurs seemed to be generally in control without doing anything to make it count pretty much until Eriksen came on, although we had looked better in 2nd half before he came on too.
And that is why stats can be so misleading.
 
And that is why stats can be so misleading.
No, it’s the other way round Stevee, x/g stats actually quallify not just quantify. They measure (based on analysis of100s of 1000s of events) the quality of chances not just the quantity and the likelihood that chances lead to a goal based on all the circumstances. And what they are saying is though we think Liverpool had lots of chances, the actually likelihood of them scoring from them wasn’t necessarily as good as the perception and we actually had better quality chances to score overall. With our naked eye we see chances and register pressure and emotion but we don't always separate those things and weigh it up clinically without separating the actual emotion from it. X/G does this.
 
No, it’s the other way round Stevee, x/g stats actually quallify not just quantify. They measure (based on analysis of100s of 1000s of events) the quality of chances not just the quantity and the likelihood that chances lead to a goal based on all the circumstances. And what they are saying is though we think Liverpool had lots of chances, the actually likelihood of them scoring from them wasn’t necessarily as good as the perception and we actually had better quality chances to score overall. With our naked eye we see chances and register pressure and emotion but we don't always separate those things and weigh it up clinically without separating the actual emotion from it. X/G does this.
The only thing that bothers me with team/ players stats is that they don't factor in the quality of the opposition or the quality of the league.
 
The only thing that bothers me with team/ players stats is that they don't factor in the quality of the opposition or the quality of the league.
I believe x/g and xa stats do this, as well as the situation, I believe they evaluate the players involved and their prior metrics - but I’m not 100% on that, or it might be that some do and some don’t.

Either way, they are far more unbiased metric over a wider control body than us, our eye and our emotional bias (even subconscious or subliminal emotional bias).
 

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So there is a lot of good discussion being spread across a lot of different threads regarding tactics, formations, etc...but I wanted to have a place to talk more broadly about tactics as a whole rather than individual matches or player threads. I couldn't find a similar thread, so if there is one, please feel free to bump and merge. To kick off from last night's disasterpiece theater, here is a good article on what may be wrong with Spurs right now:

Three Theories About What’s Wrong at Tottenham Hotspur

Of particular note is point 3 (below).

I think we have players on the roster now to make the midfield better, I am just confused as to why Poch seems to be setting up the team to have our weakness exploited (LB/RB/DM) rather than creating a team to mask those challenges (3-5-2/4-3-3). This isn't a new problem, so why we are trying to solve it with things that clearly don't work (Winks as a DM/base of the diamond).

Other concerns and issues aside (investment, challenges behind the scenes, contracts, injuries, match fitness etc..), I still don't feel like Poch is putting the team in the best position to win.

Tottenham’s midfield is still horrible.

Speaking of Ndombele, Dele, and Lo Celso—did you know Tottenham’s midfield was really bad last year? And did you know that we’re basically still playing the same very bad midfield this year because Ndombele, Lo Celso, and Dier have been struggling with injuries.

It’s possible that what we are seeing now is merely the chickens coming home to roost. Spurs have not had a reliable ball-winning midfielder for over a year nor have we had a consistent progression midfielder. Theoretically the addition of Ndombele and Lo Celso should fix that, as would, you know, actually playing Eric Dier. But as long as Ndombele and Lo Celso are struggling for fitness and Dier is on the bench, Spurs will continue to struggle. You need a functioning midfield to compete at the level Spurs want to compete at. Tottenham don’t have such a midfield right now. But by the end of this month they likely will, assuming Dele, Ndombele, and Lo Celso have all returned to full fitness and Poche has ended his bizarre banishment of Dier.

Tottenham’s midfield genuinely is bad. And in the vast majority of cases, it is going to be difficult or impossible to compensate for that across a long run of fixtures. Certainly it seems to be the case that Tottenham’s performance against Bayern correlates almost exactly with “was Tanguy Ndombele in the game?”



Thankfully, we should know by sometime in November what the issues actually are. Over the next two months Spurs only have one match where you should probably expect the team to lose—a rough home fixture with Liverpool. Otherwise all of the league fixtures are games where you’d figure on Spurs to at least get a draw—and you could reasonably expect a win in most of the games. Likewise, the two Champions League fixtures are with Red Star Belgrade. That’s a beast of an away day, of course, but in terms of the quality of the opponent, Red Star is not Bayern.

Moreover, Dele and Ndombele are already back and playing their way into fitness. Lo Celso should return this month. And at this point there is no reason whatsoever to persist in starting Winks when Dier appears to be fit. If in November we’re still consistently seeing Winks and Sissoko in midfield, that would be a cause for concern. Similarly, if we’re seeing the new personnel and results have still been poor, that would be a cause for concern. But ultimately I still suspect that the problem is midfield, the fix is fairly obvious, and if the team strings together a couple strong performances we may find that we forget about this awful start to the season fairly quickly.
 
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