The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
This tweet from yesterday got retweeted on my time-line.........Apparently Onomah had a terrible game for Wednesday.
This tweet from yesterday got retweeted on my time-line.........
Just want to put on record that I wasn’t as disappointed as some of you to see Marsh on the bench Wednesday.
Marsh is more one dimensional maybe, but I think he’s very competent at that dimension, very tenacious, industrious and technically decent, and sometimes a player like that can be exactly what is needed.
Dier is extremely one dimensional as a CM and not as dynamic as Marsh, and many are happy to see him out there “doing a job”. I’d much rather my busy cunt can actually do the “busy” as well as the “cunt” and Marsh does.
If you want a player to provide that more disciplined role, maybe centrally in a cm3, then Marsh could be just the ticket.
This tweet from yesterday got retweeted on my time-line.........
Marsh has several attractive attributes in that he can play as a DM, CB and possibly a bit more at a stretch as RB,. so has that versatility which is attractive as even if we get 25 players into the squad, it only takes say 2 injuries to players who play as CB, RB or DM and its very useful to have someone who may not be fantastic in one of those positions but is at least half competent.
However the issue with Marsh is that whilst he's a great 'destroyer' his passing out from the back is....well 'back of the class'.
And I'm not sure how often Spurs need to play with a pure 'destroyer ' in the side - we did with Wanyama in the side in 15/16 but with his decline through injury we've usually played with Dier who may not be as good a destroyer but is far better at passing the ball out than either Wanyama or Marsh even if he isn't a 'top of the class' passer like Eriksen or Winks.
So happy to see all Academy players who are competent getting a chance and making it as a pro footballer whether with Spurs (for preference) or elsewhere (which realistically will be true for the vast majority of Spurs graduates), but I will be more excited by Oliver Skipp and Jamie Bowden coming through as CM's than Marsh as I think they add more to a Spurs team.
Did he play on the wing? behind the striker? or any other position many other people use as an excuse as to why he played poorly?
Or did he in fact play in his 'preferred' position of central midfield and STILL play poorly? Let's just get to grips with the fact that Onomah just isn't good enough for Tottenham.
Will be lucky to get £3,000,000 for him in the summer - but his future at Tottenham is done.
Dier's passing isn't better than Wanyama's. He may hit the odd long diagonal which Wanyama rarely does, but in general, Wanyama's use of the ball is quicker and marginally more incisive - better. And Wanyama would also move forwards, carry the ball through lines at times, something Dier can't do. Dier is much more of a pure, one dimensional, DM than Wanyama.
I get being more excited by Skipp (haven't seen loads of Bowden yet) but I still think a focused busy ****, who is quick and concise with his passing still has a place, and if you are playing a CM2 or CM3 and you want to put "footballers" who are a bit defensively compromised in there, then a player like that can balance off those skill sets and allow you that luxury.
I think your mother would have said 'wash your mouth out with soap and water' for saying Dier's passing isn't better than Wanyama's. He may hit the odd long diagonal which Wanyama rarely does.
As I said Dier's passing is a long way short of Winks and Eriksen, but its also true that there is a big gap in Dier's passing ability and Wanyama's.
Dier is not as good a 'destroyer' as Wanyama but more versatile in playing that position.....and when we do not need a pure destroyer as a DM (usually we don't outside playing top 6 in PL) its better for the team to have that versatility. Likewise Michael Carrick was a deep lying playmaker/DM and we never played him alongside a 'destroyer' type DM.
In the long term Skipp may well supersede Dier as a DM as his passing is better but Dier's versatility in being able to play CB and RB may mean that he is retained as an ideal squad member for his versatility.
I don't think the Academy has any more pure 'destroyer' type DM;s coming through after Marsh, as better passing and other attributes are required in the modern game. But we do have both Jamie Bowden and a year younger Harvey White who are both the Carrick like DM which suit the modern game
I can't access the Squawka comparison matrix right now, it's gone all funky, but Ive posted the stats many times in similar arguments. If you look at say Dier in 15/16 or 17/18 and compare it with Wanyama 16/17 (his only full season with us) per 90 his passing produces more key passes, creates more chances, they both complete similar percentages success rate etc. So I don't really understand why you are insistent that Dier's passing is "better". By the criteria that I value to the team - ie speed, efficiency and incisiveness of passing - Wanyama's was moderately superior to Dier's in his one proper season he played.
And Dier's been atrocious in CM for much of the last 12 months. If we aren't going to buy someone, then the sooner Skipp can get his chance the better.
Passing is one of those things where stats can be misleading. As you say Dier does some long passing and generally I think he does more progressive passing than Wanyama, and with that comes lower pass completion etc.
In simple terms Wanyama is (or was in 15/16) a top destroyer type DM whilst Dier isn't as good at that role but is more a 'Jack of all Trades' so more versatile.
Both have their uses
Absolutely thrilled for him, looking really good. Downside is: is the quality of that league going to push him? Should we look at re-placing him at a higher level in January? That's something I always liked about our previous loan system - the way we build on half-season loans over the course of a year.Sashoua got another assist.
7 starts + 2 Sub Appearances
3 Goals
2 Assists
That's more goals and assists than he got for the U23 last season in less games.
Let me guess - they lost and he missed a chance to score.........Apparently Onomah had a terrible game for Wednesday.
In my opinion the solution is fairly simple: if Poch isn't going to use untested players he needs to send them out on loan so that they are no longer untested. We had some fantastic loan offers from exciting clubs over the summer for some of our youngsters and he personally vetoed them.
Completely agree, it is a great loan to build confidence, whilst adapting to mens football, however I think the level is too low to challenge him for a full season.Absolutely thrilled for him, looking really good. Downside is: is the quality of that league going to push him? Should we look at re-placing him at a higher level in January? That's something I always liked about our previous loan system - the way we build on half-season loans over the course of a year.
Completely agree, it is a great loan to build confidence, whilst adapting to mens football, however I think the level is too low to challenge him for a full season.
Can we even recall him in January? I know in England you can only recall a player on a full season loan if they have a recall clause in the agreement, but not sure on overseas loans.