-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
- Status
Marsh has several attractive attributes in that he can play as a DM, CB and possibly a bit more at a stretch as RB,. so has that versatility which is attractive as even if we get 25 players into the squad, it only takes say 2 injuries to players who play as CB, RB or DM and its very useful to have someone who may not be fantastic in one of those positions but is at least half competent.
However the issue with Marsh is that whilst he's a great 'destroyer' his passing out from the back is....well 'back of the class'.
And I'm not sure how often Spurs need to play with a pure 'destroyer ' in the side - we did with Wanyama in the side in 15/16 but with his decline through injury we've usually played with Dier who may not be as good a destroyer but is far better at passing the ball out than either Wanyama or Marsh even if he isn't a 'top of the class' passer like Eriksen or Winks.
So happy to see all Academy players who are competent getting a chance and making it as a pro footballer whether with Spurs (for preference) or elsewhere (which realistically will be true for the vast majority of Spurs graduates), but I will be more excited by Oliver Skipp and Jamie Bowden coming through as CM's than Marsh as I think they add more to a Spurs team.
This tweet from yesterday got retweeted on my time-line.........
Did he play on the wing? behind the striker? or any other position many other people use as an excuse as to why he played poorly?
Or did he in fact play in his 'preferred' position of central midfield and STILL play poorly? Let's just get to grips with the fact that Onomah just isn't good enough for Tottenham.
Will be lucky to get £3,000,000 for him in the summer - but his future at Tottenham is done.
Dier's passing isn't better than Wanyama's. He may hit the odd long diagonal which Wanyama rarely does, but in general, Wanyama's use of the ball is quicker and marginally more incisive - better. And Wanyama would also move forwards, carry the ball through lines at times, something Dier can't do. Dier is much more of a pure, one dimensional, DM than Wanyama.
I get being more excited by Skipp (haven't seen loads of Bowden yet) but I still think a focused busy ****, who is quick and concise with his passing still has a place, and if you are playing a CM2 or CM3 and you want to put "footballers" who are a bit defensively compromised in there, then a player like that can balance off those skill sets and allow you that luxury.
You may well be right, but he's still a kid having his first 4/5 starts as a CM, in a tough environment. Do you remember how Leicester fans laughed at Kane as clumsy, one paced who couldn't finish? Mason couldn't even get in Lorient's bench, and they were fucking garbage at the time. I'm not holding out much hope for Onomah either, but one thing this game has taught us in recent times is not all kids explode on the scene like a firework. Some take some time to find their feet. That tweet from yesterday could very easily described either of our midfielders yesterday. Two weeks ago they were posting how class Onomah was. Football innit..
I think your mother would have said 'wash your mouth out with soap and water' for saying Dier's passing isn't better than Wanyama's. He may hit the odd long diagonal which Wanyama rarely does.
As I said Dier's passing is a long way short of Winks and Eriksen, but its also true that there is a big gap in Dier's passing ability and Wanyama's.
Dier is not as good a 'destroyer' as Wanyama but more versatile in playing that position.....and when we do not need a pure destroyer as a DM (usually we don't outside playing top 6 in PL) its better for the team to have that versatility. Likewise Michael Carrick was a deep lying playmaker/DM and we never played him alongside a 'destroyer' type DM.
In the long term Skipp may well supersede Dier as a DM as his passing is better but Dier's versatility in being able to play CB and RB may mean that he is retained as an ideal squad member for his versatility.
I don't think the Academy has any more pure 'destroyer' type DM;s coming through after Marsh, as better passing and other attributes are required in the modern game. But we do have both Jamie Bowden and a year younger Harvey White who are both the Carrick like DM which suit the modern game
I can't access the Squawka comparison matrix right now, it's gone all funky, but Ive posted the stats many times in similar arguments. If you look at say Dier in 15/16 or 17/18 and compare it with Wanyama 16/17 (his only full season with us) per 90 his passing produces more key passes, creates more chances, they both complete similar percentages success rate etc. So I don't really understand why you are insistent that Dier's passing is "better". By the criteria that I value to the team - ie speed, efficiency and incisiveness of passing - Wanyama's was moderately superior to Dier's in his one proper season he played.
And Dier's been atrocious in CM for much of the last 12 months. If we aren't going to buy someone, then the sooner Skipp can get his chance the better.
Passing is one of those things where stats can be misleading. As you say Dier does some long passing and generally I think he does more progressive passing than Wanyama, and with that comes lower pass completion etc.
In simple terms Wanyama is (or was in 15/16) a top destroyer type DM whilst Dier isn't as good at that role but is more a 'Jack of all Trades' so more versatile.
Both have their uses
Stats aren't always misleading. There's a reason we were better with Wanyama in CM than Dier the previous and subsequent years, and it wasn't just because he was a better destroyer.
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
Absolutely thrilled for him, looking really good. Downside is: is the quality of that league going to push him? Should we look at re-placing him at a higher level in January? That's something I always liked about our previous loan system - the way we build on half-season loans over the course of a year.
Let me guess - they lost and he missed a chance to score.........
0-4
"Blazed over the bar before Norwich scored" (BBC)
I missed that over the summer - absolutely idiotic if it was indeed the case. You don't have to look far, to see how many players have benefitted from a season out on loan, where they get the minutes, which we can't guarantee them.
Completely agree, it is a great loan to build confidence, whilst adapting to mens football, however I think the level is too low to challenge him for a full season.
Can we even recall him in January? I know in England you can only recall a player on a full season loan if they have a recall clause in the agreement, but not sure on overseas loans.
Allen: Loans Manager A ‘Critical’ Role - Rangers Football Club, Official Website
Something Spurs might want to think about ?
Something Spurs might want to think about ?
I think In theory yes, eg Liverpool's Ryan Kent spent the first half of last season on loan at Freiburg, before returning and joining Bristol City for the second half of the season.
But if there is no recall/break clause in the deal with the Spanish club, then its only if both Spurs and the Spanish club agree to break the deal, can the overseas loan be broken, and of course it needs to happen in the January TW so he can go to another club. Otherwise if the loan is broken before then, I'm not sure if he can play at all until the next TW opens !
- Status