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I can see what people are saying about finishing 8th, It would be our worst finish in a while and I would be just as pissed as the next guy finishing there. But talking about progress, could that one season without Europa League finally be the next step in achieving our long term goals? Without the distraction of Europa League we wouldn't necessarily need a 'big' squad with players like Paulinho and Vlad and Ade with big salary. We could have a less players but better quality in the squad because we would play around 10 games less and then our squad could match the quality of our Training facilities and new UEFA Grade 1 stadium being built. I think if we don't get Europa league, we could then judge Poch a lot more and then see if we do make progress.
 

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Juicy Sushi

Evil Numbers Enthusiast
One of those times when stats and "real life" tell the same story..and it's not very encouraging:

http://statsbomb.com/2015/05/holes-in-tottenham-bloody-hull-and-dont-fear-the-numbers/

Holes in Tottenham, Bloody Hull And Don’t Fear the Numbers

Holes in Tottenham

It was quite predictable that Stoke, a team with a reputation for tough play, should be able to roll over a typically soft-centered Tottenham side and so they did. Usually, I might just point out a few issues surrounding the dismal performance and proffer a positive solution but this week happens to coincide with a bit of research I carried out which paints a dismal picture of where Tottenham are with regard their inability to prevent chances. Amongst analytic types, this is not a new theory, i’m reminded of Colin Trainor andPaul Riley respectively highlighting and dryly remonstrating with Tottenham’s defensive issues. This plight has been a bit of an elephant in my room: I knew it was there, but tried to ignore it. Hugo Lloris has had a great season? Well, you only get that kind of swift analysis when a keeper is busy, and he sure has been.

I’m not normally drawn to location work but I’ve had a look at shooting rates inside and outside the box. This is a simple yet reasonable proxy for identifying teams that create “good chances” and has proven revealing, the in-box stuff also slightly improves on overall shot ratio with regard predictability, at least for this season. Here are the in-box shot ratios (up to May 8th):


Quickly we can identify six of the top seven clubs occupying the top six slots, which makes perfect sense. As with overall shot ratios, Man City and Liverpool look better here than their league performances indicate; their problems have to a degree revolved around conversion. Tottenham, in contrast a team that has ridden fairly high for conversion has a serious problem here. A 44% shot ratio inside the box is incredibly bad, it pegs them as being as capable of creating chances in the box at the same rate as relegation candidates. Indeed the raw numbers show that they have conceded about as many shots here as Burnley, Leicester and West Ham, with only QPR significantly exceeding that total. These are not the hallmarks of a top side.

Overall, Tottenham’s shot ratios have declined year on year, and their overall TSR of 52% is the worst they have recorded in the enlightened era (2009-10 onwards). It is actually 7% worse than Pochettino achieved with Southampton last season and is ironically, identical to Stoke’s TSR, a team that whilst widely deemed inferior, has now beaten Tottenham twice.

Andre Villas Boas was regularly castigated by fans who believed that his brand of football was sterile and non-creative. He was criticised for encouraging long range shooting and passing for the sake of passing, so apropos of nothing, here are the out-of-box shot ratios for Pochettino’s Tottenham, a team that also ranks 3rd in the league for possession:


Tottenham take a high percentage of their shots from range and struggle to create opportunities inside the box. Defensively they have failed to limit the opposition’s ability to enter the box and take shots from within. In isolation topping a shot chart might seem good, but when wedded to failing in a more important chart, it is alarming.

The similarities with the Villas Boas era are clear, as are the intransigence and the squad issues. The differences too: there is no shot dominance in 2014-15. I’m inclined to believe that the primary reason for this is systemic. On the front end, Kane is somewhat isolated in the 4-2-3-1 system and can lack support at times. In defense, the porous central midfield has been a common concern with attention slowly turning to the entire defensive unit. And the recent collapse in form is easily attributed to tiredness and a lack of rotation, but perhaps also to chickens coming home to roost? The narrow victories that characterised the mid-season have given way to draws and defeats, an inevitable by-product of a lack of dominance. Michael Caley wrote on this point last season with a case study on er… Tottenham. Both Villas Boas and Pochettino arrived with reputations as prescriptive and detailed coaches wedded to their systems and methods. Each has suffered with implementation and struggled to consistently succeed with their concepts in actual games.

That this season would be one of transition was never in doubt, and that in itself is nothing new but too many aspects of performance are currently in the bin, so much so that I would propose that improvement both underlying and in general will be a mandatory requirement set at board level next year. Any post-season performance analysis that churns out nuggets like these would likely kill off most Tottenham coaches:

  • Tottenham (53) have conceded more goals that Sunderland (50) and Hull (49) and the same amount as Burnley.
  • Tottenham (12) have lost only one fewer game than Sunderland (13)
  • They have now conceded more shots on target (169) than they have taken (166)
  • They rank 19th/20 for opposition conversion rates, no doubt powered by all those in box shots.
Under Redknapp and in Villas Boas’ initial season, Tottenham punched above their weight and took advantage particularly of Liverpool’s wobbles to regularly finish 4th or 5th. However, during this time the team’s play consistently projected to be that good. What is most concerning now is that the projections start at 7th and could arguably be lower. There is a new team in charge of recruitment and a commitment to finding players in a younger bracket and developing them, much like with Bale or Modric, has been mooted. These are admirable policies but alongside this, the £100m splurge off the back of Bale’s departure seems to be held up as a mistake. I’d argue the error wasn’t in the intention but more the execution. To have any chance of challenging for top four places once more, a mix of promise and fully realised quality is necessary, otherwise 5th to 7th is the long term. It will soon be transfer season, the sale boards are up and the toughest negotiator in town has plenty to do. Rumours persist about higher level players departing and new blood is sorely required. Once more, expectations around Tottenham have had to be tempered. Improvement is required but this time it will be starting from a lower base than usual.

- See more at: http://statsbomb.com/2015/05/holes-in-tottenham-bloody-hull-and-dont-fear-the-numbers/#sthash.ebN8plj7.zjybNEIB.dpuf
And Michael Caley has been doing a lot of more in-depth work on exactly what's leading to the numbers James describes.

It's not been a secret, just something traditional media don't talk about. The question is why does it happen? I think the answer's been pretty clear that we don't have a full squad which can consistently press correctly, and the result is that we concede a lot of fast breaks that generate those opposition shots.

There isn't really a solution though with the current squad. Capoue and Stambouli are exiled for whatever reason, and are a bit too slow besides. Until we get a couple of DMs who can do the job, we're not going to see much of a change in that situation.
 

Bazali

Cute Jon
So we're looking like sliding down to 8th!

And this is progress?

A lot of you clever apologists for Poch who want to "give him another " season/chance etc would do well to remember Mr Ramos because if we keep this clown we will have a relegation battle next season!

And Arry will be too old to rescue us next time albeit he we'd be a distinct improvement on this idiot!

Apparently he got us to a minor cup final this season which we lost convincingly with Chelski barely having to break into a sweat but that's enough to let Poch carry on!!!

Well perhaps we should have kept Tim following that flawed logic!

I've not been posting here for long but generally it's a good board.

It's amusing though when you post something certain individuals disagree with they don't offer debate but post insults such as "buffoon" or "clueless" or childish little pics of babies etc BUT when you then ask a sensible question such as "what exactly has Poch achieved as a manager?" there's no response!

Funny that!


I don't think for one minute that this squad is worthy of top 4 whoever is in charge but the quality of football last season was generally abysmal with the 2 home games against the squatters and the Chavs excepted!

Lamela and Dembele would be class players with a decent coach but, sadly, this won't happen with this clown in charge!

So remember this post next November when we're in the bottom 3 if things stay as they are cos I will.

:pochfacepalm::pochbye::walker-scream:
 
So we're looking like sliding down to 8th!

And this is progress?

A lot of you clever apologists for Poch who want to "give him another " season/chance etc would do well to remember Mr Ramos because if we keep this clown we will have a relegation battle next season!

And Arry will be too old to rescue us next time albeit he we'd be a distinct improvement on this idiot!

Apparently he got us to a minor cup final this season which we lost convincingly with Chelski barely having to break into a sweat but that's enough to let Poch carry on!!!

Well perhaps we should have kept Tim following that flawed logic!

I've not been posting here for long but generally it's a good board.

It's amusing though when you post something certain individuals disagree with they don't offer debate but post insults such as "buffoon" or "clueless" or childish little pics of babies etc BUT when you then ask a sensible question such as "what exactly has Poch achieved as a manager?" there's no response!

Funny that!


I don't think for one minute that this squad is worthy of top 4 whoever is in charge but the quality of football last season was generally abysmal with the 2 home games against the squatters and the Chavs excepted!

Lamela and Dembele would be class players with a decent coach but, sadly, this won't happen with this clown in charge!

So remember this post next November when we're in the bottom 3 if things stay as they are cos I will.

:pochfacepalm::pochbye::walker-scream:
I don't think it's that bad. Certain players have improved, and Pochettino clearly had an effect on a number of young players at Southampton during his time there, as he will do here. Recent form is concerning, and people should be able to voice concerns without being branded melters etc.

But the answer isn't getting yet another coach in. We've made some changes in the backroom staff, most importantly on the recruitment side of things which has clearly hampered us this season with the players we brought in last season still not matching expectations.

I wouldn't say there has been much progress, but we have to give Poch a transfer window to clear out another batch of deadwood and bring in some players he wants and go from there. If the current form continued into the next season up till Christmas then you're absolutely right, but I hope (and i'm assuming you do deep down as well) that you're wrong!
 

Anthony Beale

Fool what you want, your life or your jewels?
So we're looking like sliding down to 8th!

And this is progress?

A lot of you clever apologists for Poch who want to "give him another " season/chance etc would do well to remember Mr Ramos because if we keep this clown we will have a relegation battle next season!

And Arry will be too old to rescue us next time albeit he we'd be a distinct improvement on this idiot!

Apparently he got us to a minor cup final this season which we lost convincingly with Chelski barely having to break into a sweat but that's enough to let Poch carry on!!!

Well perhaps we should have kept Tim following that flawed logic!

I've not been posting here for long but generally it's a good board.

It's amusing though when you post something certain individuals disagree with they don't offer debate but post insults such as "buffoon" or "clueless" or childish little pics of babies etc BUT when you then ask a sensible question such as "what exactly has Poch achieved as a manager?" there's no response!

Funny that!


I don't think for one minute that this squad is worthy of top 4 whoever is in charge but the quality of football last season was generally abysmal with the 2 home games against the squatters and the Chavs excepted!

Lamela and Dembele would be class players with a decent coach but, sadly, this won't happen with this clown in charge!

So remember this post next November when we're in the bottom 3 if things stay as they are cos I will.

:pochfacepalm::pochbye::walker-scream:
You complain about people just labelling others as a buffoon or clueless without offering any discussion... but you've just made a massive long post calling poch a clown without actually saying anything.

Also, as a message to the "anti-poch" crew, 2 things. 1) Every time something goes a little bit wrong, and the knee jerkers start shouting, and we replace the manager, and it just keeps repeating yourself, don't you ever think to yourselves "this changing the manager all the time malarky isn't working out at all"
2) Nobody is saying we've progressed in the league. Please stop saying things like "
So we're looking like sliding down to 8th!
And this is progress?"
because you're only making yourself look stupid. THAT is why you get called clueless.

How do you guys not remember the state we were in a year ago ? We were all miserable.
 
I doubt anyone "in charge" of this current cluster fuck imagined it would turn out this way..... But History is full of ship Captains sinking below the waves, as their ship disappears....convinced of the merits of their plan to successfully navigate the oceans !

Poch..put on your armbands mate, that's a fucking big wave coming your way.....:adesalute:
 

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I love watching Dembele skill players over and over again - one of the few technically exciting players in our team since Bale and Berbatov.
Technically superb. Very rarely loses the ball, strong as a fucking bull. But frustrating like a few have said on here. I'd love to see him start the last 2 games & put in a shift over the summer to win the manager over. The guy has it all in his locker. He's at a point in his career where he needs to start kicking doors in.
 
If we slip to 8th, then there's going to be some very large writing on a very large wall for MP.

How much of the famed 'ENIC war chest' would be doled out this summer in the event of us missing out on Europe, and having had a miserable end to the season?

However, I'm still confident we'll get 6th and overall for me there will neither progress nor regress from last season. Whether another season in the now more lucrative EL on top of the upcoming mega Prem bonanza will encourage a £20m+ net spend in the next window from ENIC, who knows, not me.
 
We have been on the slide.... yes.

But I think the thing to take heart from is we managed to scout and recruit the likes of Modric, Berbabtov, Keane, Bale, VDV and while their losses are great and we've seen many changes (some for the worse), I think alot of the structural changes are for the long term benefit.

If we could find those players before with our previous scouting/recruitment teams and club stature, I'm hopeful that the new regime will have more success.

Poch, Mitch and our growing youth talent (having flushed out the dead wood) need this coming season at least to show what's possible.

Looking forward to Pritchard getting time next season
 
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Eskimo

'you middle class out of touch cunt!'
How do you guys not remember the state we were in a year ago ? We were all miserable.
A year ago we had just finished 6th having won 5 of our last 8 (drawing 1 and losing the other 2)

And here we are having won just 2 of our last 8 (Losing 4 and drawing the other 2)

Fun times.
 
A year ago we had just finished 6th having won 5 of our last 8 (drawing 1 and losing the other 2)

And here we are having won just 2 of our last 8 (Losing 4 and drawing the other 2)

Fun times.
Selective use of stats without seeing the whole picture.
Of course we've gone backwards recently, nothing is ever on a continual upward curve.
But I think we have turned a corner and things will get better

It's rather fitting that your choice of avatar is a simpleton, a witless weed and backward boy beneath a balaclava.


edit - sorry for the dig, but man your angle/agenda on things is tiresome. I'd hate to have to cook dinner for you...... "This wasn't as good as last week, the last chef had much more pizazz, the beans had real pop, this sausage had 6% more crispiness and the aftertaste at the end of the meal had more substance'
 
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Anthony Beale

Fool what you want, your life or your jewels?
A year ago we had just finished 6th having won 5 of our last 8 (drawing 1 and losing the other 2)

And here we are having won just 2 of our last 8 (Losing 4 and drawing the other 2)

Fun times.
Talk about whitewashing history. I can take context out of things as well mate.
 

Bazali

Cute Jon
You complain about people just labelling others as a buffoon or clueless without offering any discussion... but you've just made a massive long post calling poch a clown without actually saying anything.

Also, as a message to the "anti-poch" crew, 2 things. 1) Every time something goes a little bit wrong, and the knee jerkers start shouting, and we replace the manager, and it just keeps repeating yourself, don't you ever think to yourselves "this changing the manager all the time malarky isn't working out at all"
2) Nobody is saying we've progressed in the league. Please stop saying things like "
So we're looking like sliding down to 8th!
And this is progress?"
because you're only making yourself look stupid. THAT is why you get called clueless.

How do you guys not remember the state we were in a year ago ? We were all miserable.

So we're all happy now are we?
:ade:

Well I stand by my "massive long post" as you call it and I said quite a lot actually including, "what, exactly has Poch achieved as a manager?"

I note in your response that you, again, haven't answered!

So what was in Poch's cv as a manager that made Levy offer him the job?

Other than he is another "yes" man who won't give him any problems that is!

And as this is an open forum I'll say what I like so refrain from making remarks like, "Please stop saying things like"
Do you realise how ridiculous you sound?

And yes I will continue to complain about childish name calling without offering a debate as to why someone disagrees with me!

You will notice that I will never stoop to that level so get used to it!

:soldadowatch:
 

Bazali

Cute Jon
I don't think it's that bad. Certain players have improved, and Pochettino clearly had an effect on a number of young players at Southampton during his time there, as he will do here. Recent form is concerning, and people should be able to voice concerns without being branded melters etc.

But the answer isn't getting yet another coach in. We've made some changes in the backroom staff, most importantly on the recruitment side of things which has clearly hampered us this season with the players we brought in last season still not matching expectations.

I wouldn't say there has been much progress, but we have to give Poch a transfer window to clear out another batch of deadwood and bring in some players he wants and go from there. If the current form continued into the next season up till Christmas then you're absolutely right, but I hope (and i'm assuming you do deep down as well) that you're wrong!

Fair enough and I respect your view!

I absolutely hope I am wrong and by next Xmas we're in the top 3 but that's not how I'd bet!

Maybe Poch's coaching methods do work with certain players, Rose springs to mind for instance, but I cannot understand his handling of proven players like Dembele & Lennon!

:lennon:
 

Anthony Beale

Fool what you want, your life or your jewels?
So we're all happy now are we?
:ade:

Well I stand by my "massive long post" as you call it and I said quite a lot actually including, "what, exactly has Poch achieved as a manager?"

I note in your response that you, again, haven't answered!

So what was in Poch's cv as a manager that made Levy offer him the job?

Other than he is another "yes" man who won't give him any problems that is!

And as this is an open forum I'll say what I like so refrain from making remarks like, "Please stop saying things like"
Do you realise how ridiculous you sound?

And yes I will continue to complain about childish name calling without offering a debate as to why someone disagrees with me!

You will notice that I will never stoop to that level so get used to it!

:soldadowatch:
His work at bringing through young players? He did a fantastic job at southampton and has clearly brought kane mason and bentaleb, rose, dier and even lamela on huge amounts.
Its a fucking long term plan, much to the annoyance of many.
Please explain to me, why he needs to have made a huge and noticeable impact in his first season?

Also, again, i can't emphasise enough the huge improvement in atmosphere this season. It was fucking toxic this time last season. Don't you remember Ledleys testimonial? How Sherwood was supposed to play but didn't because of the abuse he got when his name was read out ? The booing. We were the fucking laughing stock of the league last season.
 

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Anthony Beale

Fool what you want, your life or your jewels?
Fair enough and I respect your view!

I absolutely hope I am wrong and by next Xmas we're in the top 3 but that's not how I'd bet!

Maybe Poch's coaching methods do work with certain players, Rose springs to mind for instance, but I cannot understand his handling of proven players like Dembele & Lennon!

:lennon:
TOP 3! HAHAHA!

Mate, how many managers in the last 5, 10 years. Have taken over at a club and within 18 months broken into the top 3?
Maybe one? Van Gaal at united... where they spent 60 million on Di Maria and are paying falcao twelve times the years average wage A WEEK!

You're living in a fantasy world mon ami.
 
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