Priorities

[sammyspurs]

IMO nothing has changed, it's PL and CL.

If we are going to retain our best players and attract quality new ones to the club then being as high up the table in the PL will enable us to do this (caveat remains about us not having the financial power to be able to compete with Utd/City if we are going after the same player). An example of this is Sanchez, Foyth & Aurier who I believe none of whom would have signed for us had we finished 5th or 6th in the league and were playing in Europa League.

By focusing on these two means building a better squad which improves the likelihood of also winning the FA Cup. But focus on the FA Cup at the expense of one or the other is suicide. (I adore the FA Cup BTW a proper historic trophy, once a jewel in the crown).

I seriously would go all out to win the CL group in order to give us a better draw.
No way would I rest anyone for Dortmund so we can prioritize the WBA game.

Forget the title, it's not happening this season, we've already lost just one less game than we did the whole of last season.

December on paper has the majority of kind fixtures and I don't think 4th is a major ask for us. It's not about prioritizing the CL over top 4, we should be capable of going for both, but to rest players in the CL over some pipe dream about the title will just see us come away with nothing again.

 

[The Multi]

I seriously would go all out to win the CL group in order to give us a better draw.
No way would I rest anyone for Dortmund so we can prioritize the WBA game.

Forget the title, it's not happening this season, we've already lost just one less game than we did the whole of last season.

December on paper has the majority of kind fixtures and I don't think 4th is a major ask for us. It's not about prioritizing the CL over top 4, we should be capable of going for both, but to rest players in the CL over some pipe dream about the title will just see us come away with nothing again.

Second or third in the league and minimum of a semi-final in either cup would satisfy me. Leave us right on the brink of a truly amazing first season at the New Lane

 

[spursmalc]

I seriously would go all out to win the CL group in order to give us a better draw.
No way would I rest anyone for Dortmund so we can prioritize the WBA game.

Forget the title, it's not happening this season, we've already lost just one less game than we did the whole of last season.

December on paper has the majority of kind fixtures and I don't think 4th is a major ask for us. It's not about prioritizing the CL over top 4, we should be capable of going for both, but to rest players in the CL over some pipe dream about the title will just see us come away with nothing again.

We can win the group by beating Apoel and do not need to take risks with players like we did yesterday.

 

[sammyspurs]

We can win the group by beating Apoel and do not need to take risks with players like we did yesterday.

We didnt take risks yesterday....the team was arguably as strong as it could have been bar injuries.
Winks is not fully fit, and I agree Rose should have been on the bench.

Other than that, we rested no one. Its was full strength, we were just crap.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

I seriously would go all out to win the CL group in order to give us a better draw.
No way would I rest anyone for Dortmund so we can prioritize the WBA game.

Forget the title, it's not happening this season, we've already lost just one less game than we did the whole of last season.

December on paper has the majority of kind fixtures and I don't think 4th is a major ask for us. It's not about prioritizing the CL over top 4, we should be capable of going for both, but to rest players in the CL over some pipe dream about the title will just see us come away with nothing again.

Couple of things: (with potential to talk at cross purposes)
1. Going all out to win CL, by not resting anyone for Dortmund. Does this mean playing Dele or Kane? Based on Kane's and Dele's performances yesterday is playing them against Dortmund going "all out" or just the wrong decision as they are clearly struggling with fitness? For me playing Kane or Dele in their current state (clearly not fit) is not going all out, it would hinder the team and likely contribute to a loss. There are other players with similar question marks over their fitness too and therefore the impact on the sides performance.

2. The PL - We are just 1 point worse off at the same point last season with a better GD, that's the impact of winning more games and having fewer draws. So the fact that we have lost more isn't IMO at all relevant, I feel too that our performances have been on the whole been better than the performances we put into our first 11 games of last year. I concede that we aren't currently playing for the title, but we are for 2nd and this should be our focus. The optimist in me also says it's still very early in the season, City lost Stones to a hammy yesterday and they confirmed they expect him to be out for at least 6 weeks, let's see how they get on now they have to rely on a crocked Kompany (who looked shit in his first game back from injury) partnered with Otemendi.

We are in agreement that we should be capable to play both CL and PL. So it may be splitting hairs or too simplistic to say a player should be rested over another but for me it's about putting out a player than can compete, A 100% fit Llorente should be better than a 60% Kane. I'm not singling out Kane solely for yesterday result but he was a massive reason why we were so poor yesterday, as he is the player that is our trigger to press, yesterday we were shit partly because we/he din't press or hold the ball up. We are a team that relies on being greater than the sum of it's parts, we are fallible when it's parts are not all at the same level. We have repeatedly shown it doesn't matter who starts e.g we spanked Real Madrid with Sisoko, Tripps, Davies & Winks, only mentioning these players to illustrate a the point because if you ran a poll they wouldn't be seen as our starters, I would guess the majority would go with Rose, Aurier and Dembele as a stronger line up.

I'm waffling on here but I guess the point I'm making is what does we shouldn't be resting anyone for Dortmund mean? Unless we line-up with Foyth, N’Koudou and a bunch from our CL "B-List" squad it would constitute resting for WBA, would it?

 

[spursmalc]

We didnt take risks yesterday....the team was arguably as strong as it could have been bar injuries.
Winks is not fully fit, and I agree Rose should have been on the bench.

Other than that, we rested no one. Its was full strength, we were just crap.

The risks we took were that Dembele could only play 60 mins, Kane was clearly not fully fit and had to come off even though we needed goals. Not sure how fit Dele & Winks were. Now I would have taken the same risks as we needed to win a NLD. We do not have to take the same risks and I think we will see when the team is announced Tuesday that several players that played yesterday are missing. I also think that if Rose is to play Tuesday which I hope, he was better building up strength in training than sitting on the bench.

 

[Joe Clash]

I seriously would go all out to win the CL group in order to give us a better draw.
No way would I rest anyone for Dortmund so we can prioritize the WBA game.

Forget the title, it's not happening this season, we've already lost just one less game than we did the whole of last season.

December on paper has the majority of kind fixtures and I don't think 4th is a major ask for us. It's not about prioritizing the CL over top 4, we should be capable of going for both, but to rest players in the CL over some pipe dream about the title will just see us come away with nothing again.

We don’t need a result at Dortmund do we? I’m not saying we should just turn up, but we can win the group by beating Apoel. If Madrid finish level on points we finish top because our head to head.

 

[sammyspurs]

We don’t need a result at Dortmund do we? I’m not saying we should just turn up, but we can win the group by beating Apoel. If Madrid finish level on points we finish top because our head to head.

Thats great right up until the point we think Apoel is in the bag, and then we end up drawing the game and finishing second. Why not go through this week?

Why would we rest players for West Brom? For me, the desperation of catching City is gone. Just need to hang in there around 3rd and 4th and I think that it no big ask for the squad

 

[sammyspurs]

The risks we took were that Dembele could only play 60 mins, Kane was clearly not fully fit and had to come off even though we needed goals. Not sure how fit Dele & Winks were. Now I would have taken the same risks as we needed to win a NLD. We do not have to take the same risks and I think we will see when the team is announced Tuesday that several players that played yesterday are missing. I also think that if Rose is to play Tuesday which I hope, he was better building up strength in training than sitting on the bench.

But Dembele has to play. Dier is now a CB, I didnt see it as a risk, I just see it as a must seeing as Winks is not fully fit.

Kane will always play if available, and he should play in Germany. If anything Id rest him for WBA. There are far more PL games to rest players in if we want to get them fit quicker.

I agree, the Dortmund game we will field some mish mash team, probably get beat then have to win against Apoel. We all know how must wins pan out.

Are we really chasing the title? Seriously?

 

[Claud601]

Are we really chasing the title? Seriously?

Nah it’s 5-6 teams canibalizing each other as city cruise

 

[sammyspurs]

1. Going all out to win CL, by not resting anyone for Dortmund. Does this mean playing Dele or Kane? Based on Kane's and Dele's performances yesterday is playing them against Dortmund going "all out" or just the wrong decision as they are clearly struggling with fitness? For me playing Kane or Dele in their current state (clearly not fit) is not going all out, it would hinder the team and likely contribute to a loss. There are other players with similar question marks over their fitness too and therefore the impact on the sides performance.

Which would suggest both should have been dropped yesterday?
I think its easy to suggest they were wildly unfit, I think they were just outfought.

2. The PL - We are just 1 point worse off at the same point last season with a better GD, that's the impact of winning more games and having fewer draws. So the fact that we have lost more isn't IMO at all relevant, I feel too that our performances have been on the whole been better than the performances we put into our first 11 games of last year. I concede that we aren't currently playing for the title, but we are for 2nd and this should be our focus. The optimist in me also says it's still very early in the season, City lost Stones to a hammy yesterday and they confirmed they expect him to be out for at least 6 weeks, let's see how they get on now they have to rely on a crocked Kompany (who looked shit in his first game back from injury) partnered with Otemendi.

But this time last year we were 4pts off top, not 11pts. If the title is off the menu, 2n or 4th makes absolutely no difference in my opinion. Id much rather "risk" players in the CL than against WBA and Stoke if we arent even going for the league.

We are in agreement that we should be capable to play both CL and PL. So it may be splitting hairs or too simplistic to say a player should be rested over another but for me it's about putting out a player than can compete, A 100% fit Llorente should be better than a 60% Kane. I'm not singling out Kane solely for yesterday result but he was a massive reason why we were so poor yesterday, as he is the player that is our trigger to press, yesterday we were shit partly because we/he din't press or hold the ball up. We are a team that relies on being greater than the sum of it's parts, we are fallible when it's parts are not all at the same level. We have repeatedly shown it doesn't matter who starts e.g we spanked Real Madrid with Sisoko, Tripps, Davies & Winks, only mentioning these players to illustrate a the point because if you ran a poll they wouldn't be seen as our starters, I would guess the majority would go with Rose, Aurier and Dembele as a stronger line up.

There are a core of players who consitute full strength, and thats not just an 11. Winks, Sissoko, Dembele right now, any two in the middle I consider full strength.
Any of our full backs I consider full strength. Either Son or Dele in a front three I consider full strength.

However, take out Kane or Eriksen, and we are not full strength, stick Sissoko right mid we are not full strength.
People putting Foyth in the team....its not a friendly, its a CL game away to Dortmund, regardless of the standings. Do people want to lose 4-0?

We shouldnt be resting Jan, Dier, Kane, Lloris or Eriksen in Germany in my opinion. The others I mentioned are interchangeable and still offer full strength, but start whacking in Nkoudou for Davies or go with Dier and Foyth at CB is not the way for this game.

 

[Boltonspur]

Thats great right up until the point we think Apoel is in the bag, and then we end up drawing the game and finishing second. Why not go through this week?

Why would we rest players for West Brom? For me, the desperation of catching City is gone. Just need to hang in there around 3rd and 4th and I think that it no big ask for the squad

To secure top 4, we need to make sure we put in a shift against the likes of West Brom though. I agree that City are out of sight in reality. Making back 12 points against a team that is winning every game at a canter would be extremely difficult from here even if we had a fully fit squad, that remained fit all season. They would have to implode seriously & it doesn’t look likely.
I think West Brom is a bigger game than Dortmund right now. We could easily be out of the top 4 this time next week. We will still have qualified for the next round of the CL & have topping the group in our control.

 

[sammyspurs]

To secure top 4, we need to make sure we put in a shift against the likes of West Brom though. I agree that City are out of sight in reality. Making back 12 points against a team that is winning every game at a canter would be extremely difficult from here even if we had a fully fit squad, that remained fit all season. They would have to implode seriously & it doesn’t look likely.
I think West Brom is a bigger game than Dortmund right now. We could easily be out of the top 4 this time next week. We will still have qualified for the next round of the CL & have topping the group in our control.

Yeah that's true, however I feel a top 4 finish in the long haul can be achieved with way more off days.

We need a win, and Dortmund are up next so be it.

 

[Gatsby]

There’s no title race until City start dropping points.

In ways the West Brom game this weekend is more important than the Dortmund as we have a second chance to top the group vs Apoel. If we fail to beat West Brom and the others win again then we’re playing catch up big time.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Which would suggest both should have been dropped yesterday?
I think its easy to suggest they were wildly unfit, I think they were just outfought.



But this time last year we were 4pts off top, not 11pts. If the title is off the menu, 2n or 4th makes absolutely no difference in my opinion. Id much rather "risk" players in the CL than against WBA and Stoke if we arent even going for the league.



There are a core of players who consitute full strength, and thats not just an 11. Winks, Sissoko, Dembele right now, any two in the middle I consider full strength.
Any of our full backs I consider full strength. Either Son or Dele in a front three I consider full strength.

However, take out Kane or Eriksen, and we are not full strength, stick Sissoko right mid we are not full strength.
People putting Foyth in the team....its not a friendly, its a CL game away to Dortmund, regardless of the standings. Do people want to lose 4-0?

We shouldnt be resting Jan, Dier, Kane, Lloris or Eriksen in Germany in my opinion. The others I mentioned are interchangeable and still offer full strength, but start whacking in Nkoudou for Davies or go with Dier and Foyth at CB is not the way for this game.

The only way we can effect what City are doing is when we play them, so whether we are 5pts or 10pts behind them isn’t anything we can do about that. Their record against us is also shit. Again might as well hand them the league title now and save everyone the bother.

But it’s so arbitrary though Sammy, if we only played Foyth because it allowed Dier to play DM because Dembele injured is that acceptable? But playing an injured player is not full strength, they compromise the performance of the team. Kane was out muscled because he was in fit, he was 2nd to every ball, and on some he didn’t even bother to chase down. Its easy to manage with hindsight but if he is in the same condition he simply shouldn’t start if he isn’t able to complete. Check the starting 11’s against all our CL games so far, there has been an eyebrow raised with every selection, there were few eyebrows raised with the team yesterday.

For me the bottom line is I trust all in our squad to play with the exception of GKN, we are at our most formidable when we are on the counter attack or aggressively pressing the shit out of the oppo, both require fit players, an unfit player is a weak link.

I can flip the coin on this position however and that is some of those coming back from injury might need minutes, but that obviously carries the risk of above.

We aren’t far apart here but I’d say that only 11 games into the season with a bunch of unfit players needs to be managed carefully and not risk the remainder of the season.

 

[Bazali]

There’s no title race until City start dropping points.

In ways the West Brom game this weekend is more important than the Dortmund as we have a second chance to top the group vs Apoel. If we fail to beat West Brom and the others win again then we’re playing catch up big time.

Can’t see Citeh dropping any points with refereeing decisions like yesterday

Kompany should have been red carded
Simple

Having said that they have been the best side so far this season but I think ManUre (sorry Joe but will never call them Utd) may yet prevail as they now look strong and it’s Maureen’s 2nd season which would be a shame as I hate everything he stands for but he wins things, sadly

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I concede that we aren't currently playing for the title, but we are for 2nd and this should be our focus.

For me, not a huge amount of difference between 2nd and 4th. With the squad we have, we should easily finish top four, so we should definitely concentrate on the cups. There are enough premier league games which are not near a cup game, which we can focus on and play our first eleven for. (Agree with resting players in Dortmund though, as we only need to beat APOEL to top the group- and they are knackered).

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

For me, not a huge amount of difference between 2nd and 4th. With the squad we have, we should easily finish top four, so we should definitely concentrate on the cups. There are enough premier league games which are not near a cup game, which we can focus on and play our first eleven for. (Agree with resting players in Dortmund though, as we only need to beat APOEL to top the group- and they are knackered).

Finishing 2nd in the league is one of the highlights of my Spurs supporting life (45yrs). A genuine we belong moment, still bursting with pride now.

For me finishing 4th would leave me empty, not pissed off, just empty. It may even have a tinge of disappointment. I like to think I'm rational happy clapper most of the time and I know I could search for a thousand reasons that will mitigate the feeling of finishing 4th but as I sit here now I'd be lying if I was to say not finishing 2nd or 3rd would be a bit shit, (unless it was a point or two separating us from say 2nd but history shows 4th is usually way, way off the pace).

For me I think the difference of the feeling of finishing 2nd or 4th is huge, thinking about it (for the first time) I think there is a huge difference in finishing 3rd over 4th. Fourth is nothing, you're not even guaranteed CL, you still have to qualify and probably play a side in Russia that is already a month into a season whilst we have players coming back injured/knackered from World Cup and we do a West Ham and get knocked out before we even begin and therefore start the season off in the most negative way. We've finished fourth before, first time we did it it was great, a real sense of achievement, wasn't the same feeling for me the 2nd time, in fact the 2nd time we did it was when chavs won CL and we played Europa as a result, may be that's why I hate fourth, it just feels a million miles away and perhaps most importantly no sense of progress. The table doesn't lie, you want to know who is best teams are look at the table it is the reference point, nothing else matters, playing football is about being the best team and for the first time in my lifetime we are properly at the top end of the table and this is what it is all about.

The hatred that is aimed at us right now has never been more intense and bigger, getting it from Utd. (I've never got any stick off Utd until now!) City, Liverpool and then the usual suspects of Chavs and scum. You want to know what mixing it at the top is, just look at Saturday. For the first time in 20yrs there was an atmosphere at the scum, there was an atmosphere because they are shit scared of us, they know we are a serious threat, it's been building for a few years now but all their meltdowns are directly because of us, we are inflicting pain with every single goal, with every single win, not just them though, City, Utd, Liverpool, we are the club causing the their grief, we are the club that doesn't belong in the group, we are the club embarrassing them with their billions of pounds investment, we are the club that has caused them to all hold hands with supporter pacts with each other like a comfort blanket, we've reduced them to this state of pathetic and embarrassing, cringefest. Not because we have won a Cup but because we are a bonafide threat, a gilt edged one at that, not an Woolwich threat, they haven't been in a title race for 14yrs!! THIS is how it should be and this is why it's a bit shit throwing in the towel after 12 fucking games.

One thing I don't really get and that's the term "focus on or concentrate on......(insert what someone thinks we should focus on)......." Not aimed at just at you palmers_green_yid It is said a lot by many, myself too. Also not aimed at a game like Dortmund, as in isolation our position can be viewed on the fact we have already qualified and it's about picking what's best balance given the injury problems and other games we have and having a plan to top the group. But what does "focus or concentrate" mean? Rest players in other comps and only play best team in FA Cup? What if we did that and lost? Would it still be said we concentrated on it? Or that we were simply lost to another team? I bet if we lost regardless of the team that was put out people would say we "binned it off" because we played Rose instead of Davies, or Aurier played instead of Tripps? (I'm not including an obvious heavy rotation with kids like ALL teams do in Kangaroo Cup). Same phrase of "have a decent cup run". We have had 25 decent cup runs since winning the FA Cup in 91 (2 Trophies, 2 RU's, 8 SF's, 13 QF's) yet the feeling felt by many abject disappointment. We lose in a Semi-Final and manger still gets slated because he chose "not to focus/concentrate on it" by leaving Walker on the bench. Or was it that we just lost, that's football?

One last thing, I disagree that we will easily finish in top four, it's going to be close and probably get decided on the last day of the season, to finish in top four means we have to be "on it" every single game, no game should be taken lightly. Still need to see more games from us before we can make a better judgement but right now I have more confidence in our players getting a result if they feel they have something to prove than if they think all they have to do is turn up to get the points. Failure to "focus" on every game in the League will see us not finish in top four.

 

[spursmalc]

I am starting to think we should Freeze this thread until the new year. After the Madrid game there is no way I would be advocating resting players for Dortmund but with players clearly not fit have changed my mind. We must play our strongest team re Apoel assuming we still need to secure top spot. Apart from that it is Premiership matches all the way to January and no priority to discuss.
It really depends on injuries, fitness and who we get in the 3rd round of the F A Cup how strong a team is put out in F A Cup. Where we are in the league will also have a bearing. Reassess then and when CL draw known. The FA Cup is only 6 matches with the final after the end of the premiership season. Always want to end up the highest possible in the league even when it could be 7th instead of 8th. However want silverware as well.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Finishing 2nd in the league is one of the highlights of my Spurs supporting life (45yrs). A genuine we belong moment, still bursting with pride now.

For me finishing 4th would leave me empty, not pissed off, just empty. It may even have a tinge of disappointment. I like to think I'm rational happy clapper most of the time and I know I could search for a thousand reasons that will mitigate the feeling of finishing 4th but as I sit here now I'd be lying if I was to say not finishing 2nd or 3rd would be a bit shit, (unless it was a point or two separating us from say 2nd but history shows 4th is usually way, way off the pace).

For me I think the difference of the feeling of finishing 2nd or 4th is huge, thinking about it (for the first time) I think there is a huge difference in finishing 3rd over 4th. Fourth is nothing, you're not even guaranteed CL, you still have to qualify and probably play a side in Russia that is already a month into a season whilst we have players coming back injured/knackered from World Cup and we do a West Ham and get knocked out before we even begin and therefore start the season off in the most negative way. We've finished fourth before, first time we did it it was great, a real sense of achievement, wasn't the same feeling for me the 2nd time, in fact the 2nd time we did it was when chavs won CL and we played Europa as a result, may be that's why I hate fourth, it just feels a million miles away and perhaps most importantly no sense of progress. The table doesn't lie, you want to know who is best teams are look at the table it is the reference point, nothing else matters, playing football is about being the best team and for the first time in my lifetime we are properly at the top end of the table and this is what it is all about.

The hatred that is aimed at us right now has never been more intense and bigger, getting it from Utd. (I've never got any stick off Utd until now!) City, Liverpool and then the usual suspects of Chavs and scum. You want to know what mixing it at the top is, just look at Saturday. For the first time in 20yrs there was an atmosphere at the scum, there was an atmosphere because they are shit scared of us, they know we are a serious threat, it's been building for a few years now but all their meltdowns are directly because of us, we are inflicting pain with every single goal, with every single win, not just them though, City, Utd, Liverpool, we are the club causing the their grief, we are the club that doesn't belong in the group, we are the club embarrassing them with their billions of pounds investment, we are the club that has caused them to all hold hands with supporter pacts with each other like a comfort blanket, we've reduced them to this state of pathetic and embarrassing, cringefest. Not because we have won a Cup but because we are a bonafide threat, a gilt edged one at that, not an Woolwich threat, they haven't been in a title race for 14yrs!! THIS is how it should be and this is why it's a bit shit throwing in the towel after 12 fucking games.

One thing I don't really get and that's the term "focus on or concentrate on......(insert what someone thinks we should focus on)......." Not aimed at just at you palmers_green_yid It is said a lot by many, myself too. Also not aimed at a game like Dortmund, as in isolation our position can be viewed on the fact we have already qualified and it's about picking what's best balance given the injury problems and other games we have and having a plan to top the group. But what does "focus or concentrate" mean? Rest players in other comps and only play best team in FA Cup? What if we did that and lost? Would it still be said we concentrated on it? Or that we were simply lost to another team? I bet if we lost regardless of the team that was put out people would say we "binned it off" because we played Rose instead of Davies, or Aurier played instead of Tripps? (I'm not including an obvious heavy rotation with kids like ALL teams do in Kangaroo Cup). Same phrase of "have a decent cup run". We have had 25 decent cup runs since winning the FA Cup in 91 (2 Trophies, 2 RU's, 8 SF's, 13 QF's) yet the feeling felt by many abject disappointment. We lose in a Semi-Final and manger still gets slated because he chose "not to focus/concentrate on it" by leaving Walker on the bench. Or was it that we just lost, that's football?

One last thing, I disagree that we will easily finish in top four, it's going to be close and probably get decided on the last day of the season, to finish in top four means we have to be "on it" every single game, no game should be taken lightly. Still need to see more games from us before we can make a better judgement but right now I have more confidence in our players getting a result if they feel they have something to prove than if they think all they have to do is turn up to get the points. Failure to "focus" on every game in the League will see us not finish in top four.

Although it was fantastic finishing second I'd rather win the fa cup and finish fourth than second and no cup win. When one competition is beyond us I'd rather win another one than finish second in that first one, which is the best we can do now in the league.

Agree though that it's a largely academic debate, as the focus will depend on injuries etc, plus normally we will be able to fully focus on most games, the only obvious exceptions being FA Cup games up to semi finals which will probably involve clear rotation and prioritising of the league games. Theoretically there could be choices e.g. play Dembele in league game on Saturday or in important CL game on Tuesday. But mostly it's a debate that exists so fans can discuss what they find more important.