Individual regression

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:deledoubt:

It's only since December that we've had a meaningful points gap between us and Scum / Chelsea.

None of the teams below us have really improved in that time, they've just had a run of form and easier games to pick up points in.

Liverpool have overtaken us as things stand, I don’t think they are having a fluke season and they will just keep improving the squad as time goes on.

Woolwich and United have invested and aren’t far behind us, as a matter of fact I am willing to bet United finish above us next season because they are guaranteed to make more signings, as are Woolwich.

Chelsea are an unknown at this point, anything could happen there.

You can’t say they have had an easier run, that’s simply not the truth, we haven’t been putting teams away that we should have been putting away and the reason that has happened is for a number of reasons, one of which is our lack of investment in the team catching up with us, especially in the midfield area.

The gap is closing and people don’t want to see it because they are in denial quite frankly and it’s going to be even worse next season because we will be, imo, losing a number of key players (Toby, Eriksen) both of which I think are as good as gone unless we manage to convince them otherwise which I think would have already happened if it was going to.

Levy might be a great businessman but like many have said, he doesn’t invest in the squad with top quality talent, he will never pay the market prices and unfortunately, that’s what it takes these days to go that final step (unless you have a “miracle” season like Leicester.)
 
We're sitting 3rd in the league, on pace for a high 70's point total, and in the QF of the Champions League.

What's happening to our players is that they're excelling, as they've done for years.
But that would surely mean we don’t need a new midfield and fullbacks
I don’t think they’re excelling....I think all those players in that list have regressed to various degrees.

The quality is there, hence our position, but what was an outside title challenge four weeks ago now looks like EL
 
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Some of those players are simply not good enough for a Top 3 / PL challenge side and never will be. Never. The odd good game vs relegation fodder means nothing - in every single crunch PL game this season we've come short

Our CM and full backs is at its weakest since Poch arrived an people still expect the same results. Like buying a fancy motor and not servicing it for 3-4 years expecting to run the same. Unless the Board invests in the squad - nothing will change other than eventually losing our superstars who can go elsewhere and actually win stuff and may be build some egos - lol

Agree to an extent but Poch made those players compete. Right now I could go through the whole squad and say that Winks, Jan and Sissoko are the only consistent performers.
Son has always been hot and cold but has never been labelled in the same way as Dele and Eriksen as world class, and those two themselves have been nowhere near as good as they were two years ago.

Its not just about the "cloggers"......if people are honest, they will also say Kane was better a couple years ago, DESPITE the stats.
Our energy and aggression is fucking shit now.

Manager?
Or just a coincidence that an entire team hasnt learned a thing, bar the odd CL game
 
Lost 4-2 to Woolwich after beating Inter, lost to City after the PSV heroics. Even in the league, after the big result at Old Trafford we lost to Watford...
 
Is Poch partly to blame for us not having a big enough or strong enough squad? A few journalists have said that he has had money to spend. Admittedly we might not be able to afford the first choice targets, but is he too fussy when it comes to the next tier of players? Why we didn't go for Trielmans is baffling.

There is a truth in all the hysterics and side taking.
For me there is no Levy Vs Poch nonsense.

Only facts.
The facts are the 23 players he’s had signed, the money spent on them (we are talking over 200M in 4,5 years) the choices that he’s been given and chosen not to pursue, and the players he may have wanted but we missed out on.

The truth is all in there, so for me he HAS to take share responsibility for the state of the squad today, form wise.
He took plaudits for getting the best out of them, so we can’t just say they are all shit now. He also plays a part in the bad times.

I personally believe we don’t really play to anyone’s strengths tactically. That’s a big problem.
 
Are you saying we need a change of manager?
I merely answered sammyspurs sammyspurs question. "Players that raised their game, and then regressed", "Players that have simply not developed further" and "players that are hot and cold and lack consistency" are the responsibility of the manager and am sure all agree..

And as for need a change you are asking: The club has 3 main components, these are the board, management field level and the players. Few fans are blaming stadium saga which is BS because we were at Wembley last season and did well. On the evidence of the results and performances, there is a need for a change to rectify and improve. I am THFC fan and not qualified or expert decision maker.
 
I merely answered sammyspurs sammyspurs question. "Players that raised their game, and then regressed", "Players that have simply not developed further" and "players that are hot and cold and lack consistency" are the responsibility of the manager and am sure all agree..

And as for need a change you are asking: The club has 3 main components, these are the board, management field level and the players. Few fans are blaming stadium saga which is BS because we were at Wembley last season and did well. On the evidence of the results and performances, there is a need for a change to rectify and improve. I am THFC fan and not qualified or expert decision maker.
That didn't answer my question though, did it?

I am a firm believer that the biggest single negative influence on the seasons performance has been the detrimental effect of the club's over commitment to the world cup.
It's disruptive fall out extends to injuries, loss of form and fatigue.
 
Yet we still persist with it (and revert back to it even when we do switch it up successfully)...

Does my nut in.

We've gone from 3CBs and 2 peak destroyers to 2CBs and Winks. Hmmmm.... I wonder why we're not as solid defensively. :rolleyes:

Winks will be an excellent deep lying playmaker.

But he needs a destroyer next to him or behind him. Simple as that.
 
Why not?

New DM
New CM - Winks
Dele
Is a perfectly fine diamond. You'd have someone who can screen a defence, take the ball under pressure, turn and move it forward (Berge) and you'd have the runner next to Winks who would be the runner in the midfield (Diawara) whilst Dele is at the tip creating shit.
First of all Diawara and Berge are not coming. Berge is reasonable but there's no indication he's ready to play top level football as a starter for us next year and Diawara would be like 50m. And I don't even think Diawara, Winks and Berge could all play together, just a really bad fit.

But with a diamond you not only need extremely good wing backs to provide width, it's also really easy to counter which is why teams only use it when they play vs narrow 433 formations.

The diamond can be used really well as we've seen with Liverpool and sometimes us and Man Utd, but it can not be relied upon every game across a whole season.
 
A lot is made of the Sissoko fairytale, and a few years ago, we all hailed the emergence of the average player really stepping up into established top 3 material.

But that was a while ago, and the success stories are few and far between today.
Players that raised their game, and then regressed:
Dier, Trippier, Wanyama, Lamela, Rose, Sanchez, Davies

Players that have simply not developed further:
Aurier, KWP, Moura, Lloris

Players that are hot and cold and lack consistency
Dele, Eriksen

So where have all the success stories gone?
Whats happening to our players?
Whos responsible?

The issue I think is when looking at our first XI in particular and the quality we would have to sign to enhance it, it was not within our financial means.

Are the players you've highlighted as ones who have regressed become comfortable? Are they going through the motions? A fair few have had reasonable spells on the sidelines and/ or no preseason has that burnt them out a little? The players have 2 weeks of being at e club with no football, 3 weeks until their next league match. I'd give them a little time away from the repetition of it all. Give them a 4-5 days away from the club to switch off, reflect whatever they need to do. It hasn't dropped our way over the last month. In the league anything that could go wrong has. I don't want them playing with fear I want them playing with passion and pride not just effort. They have the talent, they just haven't managed the last few league games as well as they could have.

Personally I think the cohesion of the team hasn't been the same since we lost our width along with Dembele's legs going. That along with no home advantage has made the club take a step back unfortunately yet in a weird sense we've also made steps forward even if people don't see that on the surface of it all. We now go into every game bar one or two expecting to win. That from where we were 2-3 seasons ago is remarkable.

Dier was best as a defender, although I honestly don't mind him as a midfielder, Trippier was backup, Wanyama's knees hit the skids, Lamela has always been stop/ start since he put a Spurs shirt on with his best performances being in the Europa League, Rose I like but his mental health issues are well documented and he's also missed 48 games due to injury since 2917. Sanchez has great natural ability but has always needed to use his loaf more, ever since last season he's always had a ricket in him but should develop in time, Davies I see no regression in, he's a steady, realible LB who does what he does with little error in him.

Aurier hasn't shown enough intelligence with his dribbling for me and that's a very big let down, KWP can we ever say he was good enough to say we have seen genuine regression? I don't think we can he hasn't played enough games to say he's regressed. Lucas you can see he has quality but he seems too lightweight to make the most of when he gets past his man, he always lets them back in after doing the hard stuff & Hugo has dropped a few clangers but he isn't as bad as people think compared to what he was before. He's always been a good shot stopper but shits himself with the ball at his feet. Maybe he's aware of his mistakes, which makes him make even more etc.

I think Poch knows exactly the type of player he wants but there isn't a lot out there to choose from. Who really does a similar or better job that Dembele worldwide we could get? The same regarding Walker. As mentioned Rose has missed 48 games with injury since 2017 and shows glimpses of what he's got.

We have good quality in the squad but injuries, a lack of form, key players in positions like RB & CM we haven't been able to replace etc have left us with holes in them team. It really would be a travesty is this squad don't get top 4 after all they have done for the club over recent seasons, I sincerely hope they find it in them to believe in themselves again. If they get the results they should get over the next 8 games they'd have redeemed a sloppy month of football for the club.

All in all I don't think there's been too much regression, I just think the team feels a little flat at the moment & the quality we have signed to replace important cogs has not been of equal quality which has disjointed our style of play. I don't think there is a lot of regression, injust think a little adrenaline is lacking as well as a little quality in one or two departments.
 
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A lot is made of the Sissoko fairytale, and a few years ago, we all hailed the emergence of the average player really stepping up into established top 3 material.

But that was a while ago, and the success stories are few and far between today.
Players that raised their game, and then regressed:
Dier, Trippier, Wanyama, Lamela, Rose, Sanchez, Davies

Players that have simply not developed further:
Aurier, KWP, Moura, Lloris

Players that are hot and cold and lack consistency
Dele, Eriksen

So where have all the success stories gone?
Whats happening to our players?
Whos responsible?

The manager
 
A lot is made of the Sissoko fairytale, and a few years ago, we all hailed the emergence of the average player really stepping up into established top 3 material.

But that was a while ago, and the success stories are few and far between today.
Players that raised their game, and then regressed:
Dier, Trippier, Wanyama, Lamela, Rose, Sanchez, Davies

Players that have simply not developed further:
Aurier, KWP, Moura, Lloris

Players that are hot and cold and lack consistency
Dele, Eriksen

So where have all the success stories gone?
Whats happening to our players?
Whos responsible?

It's a cycle, the manager or maybe they have just excelled previously and are now at their actual level or the World Cup.

No group of players continue to develop unless they are pushed and much of that comes from being challenged by competition.

I never break it down because much of it is simply down to confidence. When you lose 9 games as a team much is not right.

That means you are being questioned, rotated and asking questions of yourself.

The very same could be argued for all teams in positions 3 to 6 such has been the nature of this season.

And of course you tire of a manager's voice, maybe in a subconscious way which is why you must always always refresh a squad.

It's a reasonable question but with no magic bullet of an answer.
 
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not the first time it has happened either.

Definitely not

Beat Dortmund, days later lose to Southampton
Beat Dortmund, days later lose to Burnley
Beat Inter, days later lose to Woolwich
Beat Dortmund, days later goalless draw with Swansea
Beat Liverpool, days later lose to West Ham
Beat Real Madrid, days later labour to a 1-0 win over Palace and then lose to Woolwich
Beat Dortmund away, days later draw with WBA and then lose to Leicester
Draw at Juve from 2-0 down, days later draw 2-2 with Rochdale
 
the talk of 'lets see how they respond' is a moot point, Burnely is the result that they should have got their act together. I don't want to melt but for all the possessions we're unproductive, we seem to have lost the intricate one-twos and running off players, it's laboured now.

I get Kane is heavily marked but that should create space for others, let Kane draw players out and make the space.

I believe it doesn't take much for a few players to get disgruntled and start considering their options, once they do it's pretty toxic.
 
We have good quality in the squad
I don't think I agree.

At the last summer transfer window we KNEW:

Janssen, N'koudou, Vorm would never make it
Alderwiereld was entering his last 12 months with the club
Dembele was probably unable to sustain a 10 month campaign.
Eriksen may not sign a new contract.
Vertonghen will be 32 during the season

We KNEW this and yet still did not sign any replacements. In most other clubs this would have automatically triggered half a dozen new signings - not first teamers (our first team looks pretty strong) - but SQUAD players.

Squad players provide cover for injuries, suspensions and loss of form.

We are reaping the benefit of a paper-thin squad at the moment - e.g. Eriksen plays regardless of form.

12 months on, the above is still true (OK, Dembele has gone). Now we face a transfer window that has to deal with the above, but also deal with potential duds that this season has brought up, e.g. Aurier, Lucas, Lamela. Plus everyone is a year older. This could result in possibly 10 of the squad being replaced. Anyone knows that this is too many in one window and will cause massive disruption. So we are forced to keep the 'duds' knowing full well they should be moved on.

Every summer window we need to bring in 2-3 new SQUAD members (not necessarily 1st teamers) to provide competition and cover.

As this is blindingly obvious, why didn't our resource planners and scouts prepare for it? People need firing!
 
Are you saying we need a change of manager?


No

It appeared to me that he was simply responding to the question from Sammy
‘Who is responsible ‘?

He thinks it’s the manager which isn’t necessarily saying that the manager needs replacing

Who do you think is responsible?

Telling during the last transfer window Poch showing empty pockets! so imv quite a few factors for this and other blips other than being Spursy
 
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I think what we've seen this season is several things come together at once that have contributed to the most difficult season since Poch took over.

We've had lots of injuries, fatigue from the World cup, lack of investment and playing at Wembley for what will be almost the enitre season, so some type of regression could be expected I guess - any club would struggle with that so it's not surprising.

The mentality issue may or may not be linked to that - obviously if you are missing key players through injury and suffering from fatigue it's going to be hard to play consistenly at a high level and be able to focus 100%

In some cases we show great mentality in forcing late winners and grinding out results but at other times we look abject and have constantly failed to deliver in key games with the pressure on. In order to go to the next level we need Poch to be ruthless in weeding out those who are not up to it mentally and ability wise, while investing in the right type of player to help us achieve that.

I'm not sure how easy that will be though.
 
That didn't answer my question though, did it?

I am a firm believer that the biggest single negative influence on the seasons performance has been the detrimental effect of the club's over commitment to the world cup.
It's disruptive fall out extends to injuries, loss of form and fatigue.
No I don't want manager change, club should back the manager financially or we are doomed. We have players not good enough for the shirt and should be replaced.

Poch genuinely is commited to the club, he wants to succeed, he wants to win trophies. He is top guy let down by the guys above.

World cup commitment is an excuse mate, top PL and European clubs had players in the WC.
 
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