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Winks is poor at breaking down teams that park the bus. City is City and our tactics really limited him.
I think that’s really all it is.
Doesn't excuse him, all good sportsmen should find a way to adjust to conditions that don't necessarily suit them , if he's shit against City and all teams that park the bus he's gonna have a lot of shit games and should leave.
I don't buy that theory.
Tactics effect players, that’s kind of the point. What may work for the team or the matchup may not be great for certain players. Winks needs to correct these issues the best he can, but outside of a handful of super elite talent, tactics can negatively impact player performance.
Disagree. Would you see Fabinho, Rodri/Fernandinho, Wanyama back in the day dragged out of position constantly as Winks is? Absolutely not. The DM is a position that there shouldn't be much fluid movement. Break up play, protect the back 4.
Fernandinho was always linking and building attacks as did Dembele and Wanyama (less so). In a 4-2-3-1 the double pivot exists so that one can drop off while the other can progress. Some players are limited to what they can do, so Dier, for instance, will predominantly sit the deepest and remain in this position. But when you have a player that has the ability as Winks has, as Dembele has and who I believe Ndombele has, they can and will be heavily involved in building attacks. When we are in possession the back four do not need protecting, if we are pushed up then it's likely we have only our two CB's back.
That Is how we played when Dier was behind Dembele, but he slid to the right of Toby, giving us a back 3. I’m not sold on the makeup of a Winks and Ndombele double pivot. Both enjoy moving up the pitch and if possession is lost, we are overexposed. That’s why we need to be more of a flat 433 IMO and let Winks just sit with Toby and Jan and let the fullbacks get more involved in the build up. Gives us width and gives us three in back to win second balls and break counters.
Winks is not a DM,
he does not sense the danger
he doesn't automatic move to a protection position
he is not powerful enough to stop a players
when he came into the team he was a forward passing/looking player, but now (and I expect how Poch has told him to play) he has become a player that just try's to keep possession of the ball, sidewards/backwards just keep the ball,
we only have 2 players that can see a pass, the rest have to look and look for that pass, so holding onto the ball allows the other team to drop into a defensive position, we need to move the ball quickly so that their players are out of position
he does not sense the danger
he doesn't automatic move to a protection position
he is not powerful enough to stop a players
when he came into the team he was a forward passing/looking player, but now (and I expect how Poch has told him to play) he has become a player that just try's to keep possession of the ball, sidewards/backwards just keep the ball,
we only have 2 players that can see a pass, the rest have to look and look for that pass, so holding onto the ball allows the other team to drop into a defensive position, we need to move the ball quickly so that their players are out of position
We have in theory, on paper, very exciting midfield options with Winks, Ndombele, Dele, Eriksen, Locelso. All of these players excel with the ball to feet, all break oppo press, all have played in deeper midfielder positions. We need them fit and the new players settled and fuck me that is a serious midfield with numerous options. It's all about time for this to click, or if in fact, it will click.
I've quoted all you guys in not to argue any of your particular points for or against, but just to make a general one.
I've said this for years, as long as I can remember, back to when everyone in England played 442's pretty much, but playing a a CM2 system (442, 4231) with double pivots etc is flawed in 90% of the examples it gets used in.
It's almost impossible to find two CM's that can combine the dynamism, tenacity, technical competence with some creativity (and I don't mean "Hoddle-esque” creativity, I just mean the ability to pass with some vim and incision) to pull it off successfully or do it with any panache in progressive, "footballing" sides. Which is why the 433 (or variations therein) and CM3 system is favoured by many top coaches of proactive teams.
Jol ended up with 4CM across the the midfield most weeks. We then ended up with Jenas, who I think could have been a fabulous 8 in a 433, being asked to be a 6 or 6/8 in a double pivot for the next few years. As a result everyone crucified him, when truth was he was being asked to be something he wasn’t.
Redknapp had Parker and Modric which could have been a dream ticket, but Redknapp's lack of coaching and his application (442/4411)with Bale and Lennon either side rendered it horribly vulnerable.
The CM2/Double pivot asks too much of most midfielders bar the exceptional. Many can make it work but few can work it exceptionally. To do that you need two players with the perfect blend and balance of skills, with both being able to do a bit of everything reasonably well or at least balance off each other's strengths and weaknesses.
Last season in the diamond 1+2 midfield, Winks played more the Jorginho remit than as a pure DM, but even then, with two 8’s (often Eriksen and Sissoko) it was not great because those two aren’t good defensively either - Sarri had Alan at Napoli and Kante at Chelsea to compensate for Jorginho’s defensive frailties.
The closest we got in the last few years was Wanyama and Dembele but even then neither were incisive passers of the ball, Dembele was hardly dynamic, but for much of the time they had 3CB's behind them, twin 10's ahead of them in Eriksen and Alli, and WB's to provide a wide outlet.
The problem is, none of our current bunch work in a CM2 with each other really, especially not for tough games. We can get away with some of the pairings when we are going to have 60+ possession against bus parkers, but even then it's left us a bit susceptible because we don’t work hard enough off the ball, transition defensively well, and against better teams (manC and Arse) we’ve been fucking shambolic.
If we are going to continue to operate CM2 systems, we have got to add a tenacious but footballing 6 to the mix, to pair up with people like Ndombele and Winks etc. Even if we are playing a CM3 you need someone to anchor it.
This is what has worried me about Pochettino for quite a while now, I don't think he's ever really constructed the ideal midfield for the systems he wants to play. Thinking people like Dier or Sissoko can do it, at CL team level its laughable. Idiotic. And many of his combinations have been deeply flawed, counter intuitive or fragile, especially if he is no longer coaching us to be a collective, coherent pressing team to compensate.
I don’t think Winks will ever be Iniesta, but he’s a good footballer, industrious, technically sound, currently the best metronome we have, and he gets stuck in too. This constant criticism about passing sideways is bollocks, he's not Pirlo, but he's not Dier or Sissoko either. At least he plays with his head up and tries to play passes that progress us some of the time, and there's very few CM's that combine all his attributes and are genius passers too. look at the shit Pogba gets from some people, why everyone expects Winks to be some kind of uber midfielder, I have no idea, we've never had one here.
Going forward, my ideal would be to have a CM3 (no shit) and if we added a quality footballing 6, I'd probably have Ndombele and Lo Celso as the 8's. But I have no problem seeing Winks in our side most weeks because at least he can play football and also works his nuts off, unlike some of the other options.
This happened against Newcastle aswell. Their midfielder had so much time to pick the right pass for their striker.
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Both Sisoko and winks
No, Atsu was not closed down properly by Sissoko.
Yeah but v Arse it wasn’t him.
I didn’t say it was. He was shit v Arse though, and it was his stupid foul (and failure to clear) that contributed to the first goal clusterfuck
First goal was on Rose lol
He was definitely at the epicentre of the clusterfuck, but it was still a clusterfuck