But that’s the point, he wasn’t playing as an 8 yesterday, he was playing as a 6, and as such was doing what he supposed to do with the ball. Eriksen and Sissoko were playing as 8’s and there was far more onus on them to make things happen, and it was them who were actually far more disappointing in their remits, especially Sissoko who gave that game absolutely nothing at all.
-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
But that’s the point, he wasn’t playing as an 8 yesterday, he was playing as a 6, and as such was doing what he supposed to do with the ball. Eriksen and Sissoko were playing as 8’s and there was far more onus on them to make things happen, and it was them who were actually far more disappointing in their remits, especially Sissoko who gave that game absolutely nothing at all.
Good, if opponents haven’t figured out that we now have a player who moves the ball quicker and with more efficiency than Dier and Dembele then they won’t be able to stop us as well, probably why we’ve been hammering teams for the first time in months.
We've been fucking lucky also in those games, had those teams we thrashed actually taken their chances (they both had many) then the conversation is 180 degrees the other way.
Winks is great on the ball, he has a good variety of passing (long and short/penetrative and keeping things ticking over), however, this is done largely as a result of him being given time. You saw this in microcosm against Wolves, he wasn't pressed in the first half and as a result, he dictated the game, 2nd half he was pressed and was poor. He provides a positive tempo too, he, by and large, has got his pass off with his 2nd touch. And he carries the ball well, accelerating into pockets of space 10-20yrds ahead of him.
BUT without the ball he is terrible, we've had this conversation before but he doesn't know where to be, he doesn't know if he should press or sit off. Oppo players constantly run off him, he rarely tracks the runner and if he does it's usually too late (they are already on their bikes), however, I'm confident that this can be learnt and I think this element of the game is also Poch's biggest strength. But if he doesn't improve without the ball when all DM/CM's are fit he's going to be on the bench (the reality to this is that with Dembele, Wanyama being held together with sellotape then he does start).
I love Winks but we have to accept that with him playing we are wide open, this is exasperated when Dele, Eriksen (or both) are having bad games as they did against Wolves. During other games, they have been on fire and have been a big contributory factor to the wins, despite the oppo having many good chances on our goal.
There is no wrong or right posts, it's a forum with different opinions.
PS, glad you learned to keep post short.
I think all of us, to man, acknowledge that Winks has defensive deficiencies.
I have said, repeatedly, that I’d like to see him play more in an 8 role with Skipp as the central pivot.
But Winks has made 20 league starts. Poch does improve players tactically.
You are ignoring the fact that all our current options to play that role are flawed or compromised. Dier is cumbersome and struggles to press and recover if turned. And Dier is uncomfortable when we are being pressed. As is Sissoko - who’s robust but lacks any kind of intellect offensive or defensive and as always letting players run all over him. Which is probably why Poch wouldn’t trust him with the role he’s given to Winks lately.
It’s not like we haven’t been losing control in games earlier in the season with Dier out there is it?
What Winks has given us is some level of control of possession again, the ability to play through pressure, the ability to play through teams a bit quicker and with more incision. There’s definitely some gain to go with the deficiencies.
But we all know he’s not a “Fernandinho” we need to solve that, if we find a solution to the central 6 role (Skipp or purchased) I’d much rather keep Winks in midfield in this system than Sissoko, who brings fuck all except one charge forward a game when he’s got a clean bit of pitch, that rarely amounts to anything. He shouldn’t be anywhere near a team of this calibre.
If we buy a 6 and a top quality 8 than Winks is going to lose out maybe.
Until then, it’s Sissoko who shouldn’t be anywhere near this team.
Parker.
I wasn't really sure what point I was trying to prove.
But I think what I was trying to say is that Modric excelled when he had a top quality pure defensive midfielder behind him. I think Winks would be the same.
I'm not talking about Dier, I'm not talking about Wanyama, I'm not talking about Sissoko, I'm not talking about Dembele.
I'm talking about Winks.
I love the kid BUT without the ball he is so, so poor and it will cost us. I love him but expect us to cough up chances when he plays. When he plays we need Eriksen, Dele (players in front of him) to be on form playing well, occupying the oppo with their pressing, causing poor quality ball to their attacking/forward players. If they dip we will probably lose as we did at the weekend.
With the ball he is excellent when not pressed but when pressed he is not as good as you make him out to be, Wolves pressed him in the 2nd half and we didn't retain the ball at all, our forwards barely got a touch there was nothing going forwards and this was because they shut Winks out quite easily. *(Not to confuse this about the result against Wolves, it's not on him at all it's not the point I'm making but I'm making reference to the game to give a recent example of what I see of him in most of the games he plays. The good and the bad).
(I'm not a fan of Sissoko but he's been fucking excellent for us this season and it is simply ridiculous to include him in the CM/DM debate for now, we can get a more skilful CM but the reality is the replacements will not be for him but for Wanyama and Dembele as there is zero point in having players that can't play).
In the debate of Winks v Sissoko I would drop Winks good on the ball but so poor going back it hurts. Sissoko might be clumsy but his engine is more important to us then Winks making an extra 20 passes IMO
With that lineup yesterday it was up to all 6 midfielders and attackers to protect the field and it shouldn’t fall on winks shoulders solely.
He was great yesterday and we as a team were defeated. Not winks fault we faltered as a unit. Son stopped running into space. Dele lost energy. It was a collective falling apart.
He was great yesterday and we as a team were defeated. Not winks fault we faltered as a unit. Son stopped running into space. Dele lost energy. It was a collective falling apart.
The problem as you know is that atm we have 2 DM's (Dier and Wanyama) as well as Dembele all injured so not able to play.
However Winks with either Dier or Wanyama playing alongside would cover Winks current defensive frailties and allow his forward passing (incidentally more than 50% of his passing was forward v Wolves) to benefit the team. I'd suggest Dembele would also be a better partner for him than Sissoko.
However against Wolves Winks was playing almost as DM, given injuries, with Sissoko and Eriksen as the more forward midfield players. Sadly in the 2nd half that wasn't good enough - but I'd 'blame' Eriksen (one of my favourite players) and Sissoko probably more as they are far more experienced. But truth is, its down to the team as a whole - and they were all pretty fatigued. In the 2nd half I'm not sure we had a shot on Wolves goal - and that tells us that the forwards were tired too - and inevitably there was more pressure on CM's and defence.
I'm sure Poch will coach Winks to improve his defensive skills, but that's for the future. Its worth repeating Winks game v Wolves was his 20th PL start , so plenty of things Poch is likely to try to improve, unlike more experienced players.
At the moment Poch can only play whoever is fit. I'd like Poch to be brave and play Winks with Skipp (as our only fit DM) but can understand the inexperience of Skipp making that an unattractive proposition for him.
So until others are fit, or if we buy another suitable CM/DM, Poch's team selections may well be sub optimal, just hope we pick up points
But we cough up chances when others play. We've coughed up chances all season. No matter who's played as the Dm/Holder.
When anyone plays as the 6 they need the 8's/10's etc playing well. That's how it works. At least with Winks there, those players are far more likely to see more of the ball quicker.
The problem against Wolves was not Winks. Winks actually competed 2 more passes second half (44/46) than he did first half (42/46). And only gave it away twice second half (4 times first half).
The biggest problem was a collective fatigue. Wolves also did a very good job on us - Ive seen them do this to other top teams this season. They were tactically good.
Sissoko has not been excellent this season. It's a complete misnomer. He's just getting a lot of leeway because he's dragged himself from fucking terrible to competent and become a kind of cult hero and is getting away with murder because it. There is nothing he does well consistently. His technique is terrible, he's constantly scared of being given the ball under pressure so spends half his time moving away and pointing at people to pass it elsewhere. His passing is so basic it's embarrassing. No wit, no vision. He's not good defensively either. You criticise Winks, but he's more diligent than Sissoko, every game I'm giving people real examples of Sissoko's slackness but no-one wants to hear it, because they "like" him. He's not lazy, he's just so dim he doesn't think about what he's doing. Once or twice a game he'll surge forward when he gets a bit of open pitch, and maybe whack a ball at someone, invariably he just fucks it up.
He's a shockingly bad footballer who shouldn't be anywhere near a midfield at this level. I'd rather one of our academy kids was out there. Skipp looked more comfortable on the ball in his first 10 minutes of senior football than Sissoko does after 12 years.
For all the great passes that Winks apparently makes, he is very rarely involved in any of the passes in the run up to a goal. He doesnt have a great final pass, so Im not going go on about assists he makes. He doesnt make any. He is usually not even involved in the pass before the assist, or the pass before that. In contrast, Sissoko who apparently cant pass is involved at least 5 times more in our goals.
Add that to Winks inability to defend and ball watching , just not particularly fussed if he plays or not. Most of the time its all about hoping he doesnt f it up and just passes the ball to someone else close by even backwards. Reminds me very much of Paulinho without the goals. Just have to wait for Dier or Dembele to come back.
Add that to Winks inability to defend and ball watching , just not particularly fussed if he plays or not. Most of the time its all about hoping he doesnt f it up and just passes the ball to someone else close by even backwards. Reminds me very much of Paulinho without the goals. Just have to wait for Dier or Dembele to come back.
You mean like the pass he played to put KWP in behind for our third goal against Bournemouth?
You don't seem to understand the remit that Winks has been given. He's the deepest midfielder in a 41212 format.
Sissoko on the other hand is being played as an 8 most games (he's even been pushed up in a couple of games) so you would hope he would be involved in more build up and that he'd provide a load of assists and key passes (like Eriksen who's playing a similar role but on the other side) wouldn't you? But guess what, Sissoko is failing so miserably there are 11 players in our squad averaging more key passes than his 0.7 average this season, and he's got one assist in 1100 minutes of football.
His point count is extremely high though.
READ MY POST AGAIN I SPECIFICALLY STATE THE LOSS AGAINST WOLVES WAS NOT DOWN TO WINKS!!! Please at least have the courtesy to at least read what people type, I couldn't have been any clearer in what I wrote with this regard.
2nd half he was pressed and he/we went from a dominant first, dictating the play and controlling the game to zero control in the 2nd. Could give a shit about the number of passes, we lost all control of the midfield a midfield in which he was the guy tasked with keeping it ticking. There was no progression to our forwards. He was NOT the reason why we lost but he was complicit in a) providing almost nothing defensively - this is so important to get us through a period when the oppo is pushing, there will always be these periods. We need to see out these moments, we've been lucky in the two previous games and got exactly what we deserved against Wolves.
We've been here before about the chances we coughing up this season, nothing has changed and let's not go down Tripps route again, because yet again the oppo had a piece of him and ran riot with him putting in yet another calamitous display, quite an impressive collection he's racking up!
Winks offers almost NOTHING without the ball, I'll go further and say that he confuses other players (Spurs players) around him, he magnifies a the oppo attacking threat. He's a tryer though, he's not passive and it's clear he wants to affect the game without the ball, it's just he has a terrible reading of the game, where to be, read where the oppo is going to be, sense the danger, sense the pass, instead he gets drawn to the ball whilst oppo run off him and pass around him.
Sissoko isn't a highly skilled technical player, but your take on his current contributions are nothing other than shockingly poor. I'm not even bigging him up as a world beater, I'm not even acknowledging that he's put in numerous MOTM performances, I'll even go on record here and now to say that if we didn't have any injuries to our DM/CM options that I would prefer to have Dembele and Wanyama playing over him (and Winks) but to continue to critique him the way you do is at total odds to the game he's playing.
TDLR:
We are conceding more shots on goal because.....
1. Our FB's - and In particular Tripps who is shite gets targeted and the oppo fills their boots.
2. A Winks/Sissoko midfield lacks any real balance, it's an odd coupling (Winks is poor defensively, Sissoko lacks any kind of control in defence or attack (*but somehow it's kind of working all be it without our customary control, without evidence of repeated patterns of play that we've become accustomed too. It's a tad chaotic).
3. We have changed how we press high. We no longer look to engage and win the ball back in the first line of the press and have adopted to force the oppo to play long and hurried balls and we then go compete for the 2nd ball. And with a Winks/Sissoko midfield there's a greater chance we don't win that 2nd ball and the oppo have been picking our pockets.
Your first para is WORD FOR WORD, what used to be written about Modric at Spurs.
Yup the current player of the year was accused of those faults at Spurs (and even by some at RM). Winks and Modric are unlikely to ever be measured by assists.
NB. To avoid any confusion, I am not saying that Winks is anywhere close to Modric level
At least I back up what I say about Sissoko with evidence. Your constant diatribes against Trippier get disproven and still repeat them. Every week Trippier's a catastrophe. He's had some iffy moments, who hasn't this season and last, but he's also doing a lot more constructively - remit for remit - than Sissoko. We could literally put any number of academy kids out there to do the basic level stuff Sissoko does. I'm not saying Sissoko is a catastrophe every week, but even on a good week what he's doing lacks any real gift other than an athletic one.
My point wasn't that you said Winks was responsible for Wolves, it was that what you said happened didn't. What dropped off was the pressing completely, they were allowed to play through us because Son, Alli, Sissoko and Eriksen just trundled around like turtles in a fucking windsock. Eriksen showed up for the ball a lot less second half. Winks on the other hand actually took up some of Eriksen's slack and got on it a bit more. Kid was ragged.
Agree, and have said every time I've seen it that a Winks Sissoko midfield 2 is tactically not good at all. Don't know what Poch is thinking when he does it. On the other hand, what we've played a lot is more of a CM3 which is actually a 1 (Winks) +2 (Eriksen and Sissoko) and this I like a lot (would like it a lot more with a better footballer there than Sissoko) because it's a much more proactive formula that gives us better control of the ball, and with Eriksen in that hybrid role we have some vision coming from midfield, and also should provide some lateral cover for the full backs in a back four format. It doesn't always work that way because Sissoko isn't bright and Eriksen isn't always tenacious, but it's better than the CM2 version which leaves big gaps when one CM moves forward.
I don't think Winks is necessarily going to ever be outstanding, even as an 8, he might be, I am just not convinced, but it speaks volumes that he's trusted more in that deep holding role than Sissoko, a player who's got about 300 games experience on him and is far more physically robust.
Our press is a very hap hazard thing these days and hard for any of us to see real cohesive, consistent methodology. But I don't really understand what you say about not pressing high but forcing the Oppo into long balls and hurried balls. If you don't think we are pressing high at all, how do you think we are we hurrying them into long balls etc?
I wouldn't get hung up on assists or related passing stats, so much can be lost in what his passing brings to the team, the same can be said of Rakitic and Modric. With the ball they set the tempo, even if it's a 5yrds sideways ball they all keep moving and show for the return and keeps this going until we've moved the oppo to where we want them to be, they are the wall we all used to train against when we were kids, they are vital to a side that wants to dominate the ball, always showing for the ball, always available providing angles. (he's not as good as them but this is the player I expect him to develop towards). I think the example is also a good one as both, especially Modric do so much for their teams off the ball and both are quite slight in stature too.
He would still be average even if he played next to Roy Keane.
Him being excellent on the ball is pure myth.
Him being excellent on the ball is pure myth.
Modric was just a good alongside either of them.