Eric Dier

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sammyspurs said:
Dier is one of our most underrated players
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He really isn't and it's a case of overrating a player that has been missing through injury(usually done after a bad result).

Dier is a solid/good player with the ability to pick out a great pass from time to time. He's not just a bog standard DM who simply tackles and makes easy passes and has a lot more in his locker. The issue is, he has it in his head that he is some type of Xavi type creative mid and with that he attempts the Hollywood pass a lot more then he should (Which leads to a minimum of 1 horrendous pass a game resulting in the opposition scoring/almost scoring. He is also prone to making mistakes and bad decisions (Which probably has a lot to do with his Hollywood pass attempts). I'm glad we have a player like him but he is not underrated imo.
 
kingdawson said:
He really isn't and it's a case of overrating a player that has been missing through injury(usually done after a bad result).

Dier is a solid/good player with the ability to pick out a great pass from time to time. He's not just a bog standard DM who simply tackles and makes easy passes and has a lot more in his locker. The issue is, he has it in his head that he is some type of Xavi type creative mid and with that he attempts the Hollywood pass a lot more then he should (Which leads to a minimum of 1 horrendous pass a game resulting in the opposition scoring/almost scoring. He is also prone to making mistakes and bad decisions (Which probably has a lot to do with his Hollywood pass attempts). I'm glad we have a player like him but he is not underrated imo.
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Well lots of people think he's shit and should be sold immediately, so surely they're underrating him by your view of him
 
Don Corleone said:
Not saying Dier is the messiah, but you are honestly telling me you would choose Winks and Skipps in our most important game of the season? They are rookies mate and we are trusting them both to control the game in the middle. Ok Winks is more experienced, but he’s still relatively young and raw. We need to buy this window no doubt, but in the meantime Dier must play against Chelsea.
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Yeah. I would have no problem playing those two with one of Eriksen or Alli in our current CM3 set up at all. You think a Dier, even if you rate him, who hasn't played a game for weeks would be "sharp" or better than Winks?

I'm just not seeing any logic, as well as recent good performances without Dier, we have put in some great performances against top flight opposition over the last couple of seasons with Winks (Real, Dortmund, Liverpool, Arse in the cup - got outplayed with Dier against them in the league etc etc).

I wouldn't mind if we went Dier with Winks and Skipp, but I won't panic if Dier doesn't play either. We lost to ManU in a semi last year with Dier.
 
Dier is obviously a limited player but he gives the team balance. We’ve won a lot of matches while he has been injured but nobody could say we haven’t conceded an alarming number of shots at our goal, without him in the team it is too easy for teams to run through the centre of the pitch. There isn’t a ball-winner in the team without him.

We saw against Wolves, Chelsea and United that when we are a bit tired we essentially have to wait for the opponent to shoot before we can get the ball back off them. That can’t go on forever.
 
StripiestPilot said:
Dier is obviously a limited player but he gives the team balance. We’ve won a lot of matches while he has been injured but nobody could say we haven’t conceded an alarming number of shots at our goal, without him in the team it is too easy for teams to run through the centre of the pitch. There isn’t a ball-winner in the team without him.

We saw against Wolves, Chelsea and United that when we are a bit tired we essentially have to wait for the opponent to shoot before we can get the ball back off them. That can’t go on forever.
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Our average X/G when Dier has started is 1.34. Our average when Winks has started is 1.33.

So in terms of the amount of quality chances we concede there's very little in it, Winks just edging it. But that's just a raw stat that we have to contextualise by saying there are other players and factors that influence those chances.

But just looking at those figures, there's certainly no compelling evidence in them that we are more defensively sound with Dier as opposed to Winks.
 
bus-conductor said:
Our average X/G when Dier has started is 1.34. Our average when Winks has started is 1.33.

So in terms of the amount of quality chances we concede there's very little in it, Winks just edging it. But that's just a raw stat that we have to contextualise by saying there are other players and factors that influence those chances.

But just looking at those figures, there's certainly no compelling evidence in them that we are more defensively sound with Dier as opposed to Winks.
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Winks is way better to have in the team because he adds a lot of leadership abilities and experience. Winks is probably ABLE to produce a lot more chances but considering the role both play in (essentially water carrier/team balance) I think Dier brings a lot more to the table with his height and strength and what he adds to the team mentality etc.
 
snowkarl said:
Winks is way better to have in the team because he adds a lot of leadership abilities and experience. Winks is probably ABLE to produce a lot more chances but considering the role both play in (essentially water carrier/team balance) I think Dier brings a lot more to the table with his height and strength and what he adds to the team mentality etc.
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Disagree. I think this is a bit of a misnomer about "mentality". There are different kinds. Dier may be physically more robust, but football is not all about physical strength it's about mental strength, Dier panics when he's pressed or put under pressure, much more than Winks does, that's about mentality too, not being scared to keep showing for the ball so your team mates have an out when they are under pressure etc.

Just look at the big games Winks has played - Real Madrid h/a last year, Barcelona away, Woolwich away (where we won and had lost and been out battled with Dier). There's no lack of "mentality" with Winks. Just a kid still developing.

The performances, results, scores and chances we concede (as I showed above) do not support your theory that Dier is better to have in the team and when you think how inexperienced Winks is, and that he's never really been a 6 type, that is pretty damning of Dier.
 
Before Hazard's goal


And after it


Before Hazard's goal- presses high, can't win the ball for the 5th time and commits a clear foul -> immediately turns to the referee to complain instead of preventing a fast free kick, then when it's too late jogs back until Hazard eventually scores.

After this, Dier is high up the pitch but Chelsea win the ball and the counterattack begins. It's clearly a 3v2 situation in front of our goal, yet all the way back he jogs just like he did before Hazard's goal. But wait, Kante is close to Dier and also joining the counterattack, so maybe Dier is marking him? No. Kante appears in our penalty box, with Dier 2 meters behind him, still not giving a fuck and letting Kante shoot/pass or whatever that was.

It doesn't matter if Dier could have prevented these situations if he had ran at full speed, hell even if he was as fast as Sonny, that's not the problem. The problem is his mentality. It doesn't matter how talented he is if he doesn't put enough effort. Dier doesn't fix his mistakes. And doesn't seem to be bothered by this. Which makes me wonder how doesn't that contradict the philosophy behind this team, known for its harsh training and high intensity play, a team in which passion and hard work are more valued than natural talent and skill? Look at Sissoko. And what about the excuse that we aren't buying anyone because it's hard to find players who "fit the system"? How does Dier fit Poch's work ethic? If right now he was playing for any other team and performing like he did today (and we all know this is not the first time), I highly doubt Tottenham would ever consider buying him.
 
BriPelli said:
Before Hazard's goal


And after it


Before Hazard's goal- presses high, can't win the ball for the 5th time and commits a clear foul -> immediately turns to the referee to complain instead of preventing a fast free kick, then when it's too late jogs back until Hazard eventually scores.

After this, Dier is high up the pitch but Chelsea win the ball and the counterattack begins. It's clearly a 3v2 situation in front of our goal, yet all the way back he jogs just like he did before Hazard's goal. But wait, Kante is close to Dier and also joining the counterattack, so maybe Dier is marking him? No. Kante appears in our penalty box, with Dier 2 meters behind him, still not giving a fuck and letting Kante shoot/pass or whatever that was.

It doesn't matter if Dier could have prevented these situations if he had ran at full speed, hell even if he was as fast as Sonny, that's not the problem. The problem is his mentality. It doesn't matter how talented he is if he doesn't put enough effort. Dier doesn't fix his mistakes. And doesn't seem to be bothered by this. Which makes me wonder how doesn't that contradict the philosophy behind this team, known for its harsh training and high intensity play, a team in which passion and hard work are more valued than natural talent and skill? Look at Sissoko. And what about the excuse that we aren't buying anyone because it's hard to find players who "fit the system"? How does Dier fit Poch's work ethic? If right now he was playing for any other team and performing like he did today (and we all know this is not the first time), I highly doubt Tottenham would ever consider buying him.
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In the first clip the same criticism, running back, could be levelled at Eriksen.
In the 2nd clip the same could be said for Winks.

Totally agree about stopping the free kick though.
 
BriPelli said:
Before Hazard's goal


And after it


Before Hazard's goal- presses high, can't win the ball for the 5th time and commits a clear foul -> immediately turns to the referee to complain instead of preventing a fast free kick, then when it's too late jogs back until Hazard eventually scores.

After this, Dier is high up the pitch but Chelsea win the ball and the counterattack begins. It's clearly a 3v2 situation in front of our goal, yet all the way back he jogs just like he did before Hazard's goal. But wait, Kante is close to Dier and also joining the counterattack, so maybe Dier is marking him? No. Kante appears in our penalty box, with Dier 2 meters behind him, still not giving a fuck and letting Kante shoot/pass or whatever that was.

It doesn't matter if Dier could have prevented these situations if he had ran at full speed, hell even if he was as fast as Sonny, that's not the problem. The problem is his mentality. It doesn't matter how talented he is if he doesn't put enough effort. Dier doesn't fix his mistakes. And doesn't seem to be bothered by this. Which makes me wonder how doesn't that contradict the philosophy behind this team, known for its harsh training and high intensity play, a team in which passion and hard work are more valued than natural talent and skill? Look at Sissoko. And what about the excuse that we aren't buying anyone because it's hard to find players who "fit the system"? How does Dier fit Poch's work ethic? If right now he was playing for any other team and performing like he did today (and we all know this is not the first time), I highly doubt Tottenham would ever consider buying him.
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Bang on. I actually rewound that second clip myself last night to double check I saw what I thought I saw.

To be fair, Sissoko was no better, and I’ve highlighted many times when Sissoko has been equally poor at tracking - such as in the Barca game.

stevee said:
In the first clip the same criticism, running back, could be levelled at Eriksen.
In the 2nd clip the same could be said for Winks.

Totally agree about stopping the free kick though.
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At least Winks does run back and get himself into the box in that second clip. Dier just trundles along completely fucking nonchalantly having seen Kante (who’s already scored once), and also, Dier’s only there because he supposedly offers better “protection” because it’s sure as shit not for his playmaking or vision, if he can’t even get the basic defensive stuff right, what’s the point of him?
 
bus-conductor said:
Bang on. I actually rewound that second clip myself last night to double check I saw what I thought I saw.

To be fair, Sissoko was no better, and I’ve highlighted many times when Sissoko has been equally poor at tracking - such as in the Barca game.



At least Winks does run back and get himself into the box in that second clip. Dier just trundles along completely fucking nonchalantly having seen Kante (who’s already scored once), and also, Dier’s only there because he supposedly offers better “protection” because it’s sure as shit not for his playmaking or vision, if he can’t even get the basic defensive stuff right, what’s the point of him?
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Surely you're not saying Winks bust a gut to get back.
If he, AND Dier, had maybe they BOTH could of had an effect on things.

I'm not her to defend Dier, nor to dig out Winks but to highlight one player trundling back when in looking at BOTH clips the same criticism could leveled at 3 separate players is not only unfair, but shows complete bias.
Of course I expect the answer to be "Well Dier was highlighted in both".
This happened many times during the game and every midfielder could be shown to do the same at various times.

Dier... AND... Winks ....AND.... Ericksen should of made more of an effort to get back.
 
stevee said:
Surely you're not saying Winks bust a gut to get back.
If he, AND Dier, had maybe they BOTH could of had an effect on things.

I'm not her to defend Dier, nor to dig out Winks but to highlight one player trundling back when in looking at BOTH clips the same criticism could leveled at 3 separate players is not only unfair, but shows complete bias.
Of course I expect the answer to be "Well Dier was highlighted in both".
This happened many times during the game and every midfielder could be shown to do the same at various times.

Dier... AND... Winks ....AND.... Ericksen should of made more of an effort to get back.
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Ive watched it several times, Winks and Eriksen are in the centre, there is no Chelsea players anywhere near them and three Spurs defenders against two Chelsea players initially, Winks gets back and makes an extra body in the centre of the area, meanwhile Kante is starting to make a move forwards to give them another option (and it is him that eventually gets on the ball, and Dier was actually jogging with him and can see he's the only other real threat, but somehow just lets him stay in front of him and eventually receive the ball.

You can say Eriksen could have run back as well but once he sees Winks is, he figures 4 v 2 should be plenty - not ultra diligent but then he's not ultra defensively diligent - no one claims he is, he's got a shit load of other qualities he brings - and we all Know Winks has learning to do but he's definitely improving the defensive side of his game and at least can move quickly - but Dier is there purely for his defensive qualities, no other reason, that's my issue, if he's not doing them very well, and I've never thought he's very good defensively, he's too slow and cumbersome, then what's his real value.

Also the issue at the corners. First the one they score from, he was doing nothing, marking no one, but still didn't pick up the fact that two players were stood on the D waiting to pick up loose balls. I'm disappointed that TA and JV didn't shout this out either, but they were busier marking and jostling, Dier was just stood doing nothing and then when Kante shoots Dier kind of flinches from the block too.

I like him as a CB, I think he's actually ahead of where TA was in his development curve (if you think about how TA couldn't get a game at CB for AM, was shunted around and ended up on loan at a mid table PL club) and could be the ready made replacement at CB, but I hate watching him in midfield, there was a point last night where he got the ball in their half, we we had a bit of possession, he had two options forwards to his left calling for a pass, but he's got no game picture in his brain, and when he hasn't got this game picture of what's around him, he is also incapable of taking it on the turn, buying himself some time and then looking forwards (like Winks has been doing), he just whacked it straight back about 30 yards to JV. He's ponderous, cumbersome, slow, too easy to turn without the ball, and take out the game.
 
bus-conductor said:
Ive watched it several times, Winks and Eriksen are in the centre, there is no Chelsea players anywhere near them and three Spurs defenders against two Chelsea players initially, Winks gets back and makes an extra body in the centre of the area, meanwhile Kante is starting to make a move forwards to give them another option (and it is him that eventually gets on the ball, and Dier was actually jogging with him and can see he's the only other real threat, but somehow just lets him stay in front of him and eventually receive the ball.

You can say Eriksen could have run back as well but once he sees Winks is, he figures 4 v 2 should be plenty - not ultra diligent but then he's not ultra defensively diligent - no one claims he is, he's got a shit load of other qualities he brings - and we all Know Winks has learning to do but he's definitely improving the defensive side of his game and at least can move quickly - but Dier is there purely for his defensive qualities, no other reason, that's my issue, if he's not doing them very well, and I've never thought he's very good defensively, he's too slow and cumbersome, then what's his real value.

Also the issue at the corners. First the one they score from, he was doing nothing, marking no one, but still didn't pick up the fact that two players were stood on the D waiting to pick up loose balls. I'm disappointed that TA and JV didn't shout this out either, but they were busier marking and jostling, Dier was just stood doing nothing and then when Kante shoots Dier kind of flinches from the block too.

I like him as a CB, I think he's actually ahead of where TA was in his development curve (if you think about how TA couldn't get a game at CB for AM, was shunted around and ended up on loan at a mid table PL club) and could be the ready made replacement at CB, but I hate watching him in midfield, there was a point last night where he got the ball in their half, we we had a bit of possession, he had two options forwards to his left calling for a pass, but he's got no game picture in his brain, and when he hasn't got this game picture of what's around him, he is also incapable of taking it on the turn, buying himself some time and then looking forwards (like Winks has been doing), he just whacked it straight back about 30 yards to JV. He's ponderous, cumbersome, slow, too easy to turn without the ball, and take out the game.
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My point is that when Poch and his team look back at those incidents, is he going to bollock Dier ?
Of course he is.
Is he going to say to Winks and Eriksen, That's fine ?
No he isn't he should be bollocking all 3 of them.
Winks was also jogging back not running. As was Eriksen.

I'm not disputing the rest of your points, but this conversation started by highlighting Dier's jogging back.
As were 2 other players who were less than 10 yards of Dier and pretty much level with him.

My point is it is unfair to highlight Dier and give Winks and Ericksen a pass for doing the exact same thing.
 
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