TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

[RESPECT THE COCK]

This Bayern game was pretty much perfect for highlighting many of the issues that are wrong right now. You could run it as a power point demo to cover many of the bases.

We are a team that is structurally poor, tactically confused, lethargic in our application. We have a manager who continues to pick players that don't suit his structure and tactics and whose naivety has often been shown up on the big occasions, in the last 12 months has been shown up by much humbler opponents.

This is not a simple problem of one player or one position or one area of the pitch.

The first 30 minutes were pretty good. We came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, we were pressing as a team pretty well, Winks was busying about, Ndombele was threading wonderful defence splitting passes, and even Sissoko looked vaguely like a footballer. The fact that they started in a 4231 helped too, as our 1+2 CM3, when it was in this early energy phase, could outnumber them.

But then it quickly fell apart, after 30 minutes we were fucking spent, people stopped pressing, stood off, stopped offering themselves up for the ball, as a result the shape started to get more exposed - particularly the right back zone - as the forward payers just fucking ambled about, and the spanking that many of us had said would happen if we pulled this shit against a "top" side finally materialised.

People are constantly latching onto to things like the fact that we don't have a proper DM or our RB isn't great (although we were assured by many that it was all Trippier's fault). Things don't go as progressively badly wrong as they have been going for the last 2 years because of just one or two personnel issues. City lost Fernandinho and their LB at times last couple of years, but they didn't just fucking melt into being shit everywhere. Bayern scored 5 goals playing without a pure DM and a pretty shit RB playing at LB in the second half. Because they at least have the fundamental basics endemically ingrained.

DM

Winks isn't always ideal in that 6/Hub role, but it's not that simple, it is compounded by having Sissoko out there as the 6/8 partner in a CM2, or as the 8 in the CM3, who doesn't want to show for the ball when we need outlets under pressure, and is generally so fucking slow at reading and reacting without out the ball. And now we have Ndombele out there too, with the ball he's excellent, without the ball he's got learning to do, also not the most defensively dynamic, and needs to be more proactive looking for it when we are playing out.

A perfect example (and I've posted stuff like this before as has RESPECT THE COCK demonstrating this) is the third goal. Winks makes the initial mistake of passing the ball back to Rose when he actually has time to turn. What happens then is that Sissoko sees what is happening but actively refuses to show for the ball, move toward Rose or move into a position where he can offer Rose or Winks an option, so Rose has no other option but to give it back to Winks (who is the only one prepared to offer himself up) who now has absolutely no options at all because Sissoko still hasn't read or moved into a position to receive the ball:

First mistake - Winks goes backwards instead of forwards:

Winks move to receive the ball, Sissoko just stands there and fucking points (at fuck all as ever) so even when Rose does pass the ball to Winks, Sissoko doesn't even make himself available for the next phase - he just assumes it will "work itself out" if he points enough:

Now Winks has the ball, but with no options as Sissoko has made no effort to offer himself:

Result, Winks is pressed out of possession, and they score. Everyone blames Winks entirely, but he was just part of the clusterfuck, but the real problem is players like Winks not having options on the ball because others are fucking lazy or hiding, and that's become endemic at times in this midfield, and when your midfield isn't functioning, it's like a car with a fucked engine.

And Ndombele was just as guilty. He has to get more proactive in seeking out the ball in a team that wants to move the ball from front to back, and he's also got to get more diligent defensively. The thing with Sissoko is, he doesn't offer what Ndombele offers on the ball either.

So yes, Winks is definitely not ideal, I would dearly have loved us to buy a proper 6 in the last two windows, and I really don't think he's the future in this remit, but we also need to get the whole midfield balance right. We need three proper footballers in there, a good footballing busy cunting 6, with hopefully a developing Ndombele and scheming, more dynamic Lo Celso either side, rendering Winks a squad option.

RB

Another area of constant apoplexy. I said for the last two years that the issue is not Trippier per se. He wasn't perfect, definitely had some deficiencies, but the problem was clearly Poch's structure, tactical application and selections that were counter intuitive to the system he was insisting our FB's play.

Its being exposed even more now because Aurier doesn't have Trippier's brain or even Walker's recovery pace, which could compensate sometimes. Aurier does stupid things, and when Gnabry raced away for the third, he should not have dived in (just as he shouldn't have tugged Bertrand), he should have stayed on his feet and tried to catch him or put pressure on him - as Gnabry would eventually be a bit slower because he had to dribble with the ball and cut in - but the situation arose because Kane and Alli just fucking stood there and watched as the Bayern defenders knocked it around, then out to the LB.

If you are going to play the high line and push FB's up, then pressing up top is absolutely fucking fundamental. Or put a structure in place that compensates, preferably both. Otherwise you pull the CM's up and out of shape to press where the forwards should be and that leaves massive spaces, vertically and laterally for opponent AM's and forwards to get into - See the Newcastle goal.

You cannot play a high defensive line, ask your RB to push right up with your midfield and beyond and then not pressure the opposition on the ball - it will continually expose that full back zone.

So yes, Aurier is not the brightest, he's not ideal, but as we have seen, it doesn't matter who we play there, if Poch doesn't fucking wise up and get the structure and tactics right, the RB will continue to be exposed and bare the brunt of Poch's tactics.

SELECTIONS

You cannot keep picking players that are counter intuitive to the way you want to play as a collective. If you want to play out from the back and play through the opponent press - which more and more are doing now - you cannot have big dumb units that are uncomfortable under that press and lack the brains, 360 vision or technique to deal with it. This was true 3 years ago with Dier and it's even truer with Sissoko now. These players are also invariably spent after 30 minutes and just spend the rest of the game ambling about standing off, or in Dier's case retreating back int the CB's shorts.

Moura as a fucking CF. Offers absolutely nothing to team play in this role and just gets in Kane's way. Head down, scurry scurry then fuck all. CB's as fucking RB's. Alli bumbling about as the lone creative hub. CM2's against 433's. CM2’s like Winks/Sissoko that cannot play out and also aren’t defensively diligent enough to protect the cb’s whilst also covering advanced fb’s. The fucking wanky diamond. The wanky 442 when the wanky diamond fucks up. Stupid subs that make us worse not better.


FORMAT

Once again we got the fucking diamond. Poch won't let it go will he, no matter how many times it fucks us up the arse. Just play a fucking 433 for fuck sake.

With the midfielders we have it's absolutely vital we play a a CM3 system to compensate for the various deficiencies they all have. And they need three ahead of them spread out more laterally to occupy opponents defenders and FB's, and they all need to start working cohesively without the ball as a group.

You've got Kane who is the ideal central fulcrum and players like Son, Lamela, Moura (Sessegnon to come in too) who would be much better as wide forwards, and would allow us to press in a better shape and help protect the FB areas. We could use Alli as a false 9 sometimes, or occasionally as an 8 if Ndombele, Lo Celso or Eriksen aren't available. But lets stop pretending he's composed enough to be a lone 10, the only season he looked good enough was when we played the 3421 and he had Eriksen up there next to him doing his thing.


APPLICATION

A lot has been written about our press, or lack thereof. We don't necessarily have to press like nutters for 90 minutes, in fact that's completely unrealistic, Klopp worked this out pretty quickly. But we need to start doing it again, and in a cohesive manner, game phases need to be managed so much better. Whether we are pressing high or alternating phases, those phases need to be coordinated, and it's never acceptable to just allow the opposition phases where no pressure is applied at all and the shape just drifts about like a fart in the fucking wind.

But again, Poch needs to start picking the right format and more importantly the right personnel to facilitate this. Big lumbering units that chug about, blowing hard after every sprint are counter productive. Stupid players, that struggle to read and coordinate offensive and defensive transitions are counter productive.

Poch has signed stupid athletes, has been asking them to do complicated things, and then bitches about a lack of intensity and intelligence.

CLUB

The biggest mistake Levy made was to make Poch the de facto "Manager" three years ago. I understand why it happened, at the time Poch's stock was top of the hip parade, everyone wanted him, to pacify him Levy gave him a mega pay rise and even more control over transfer strategy (maybe Poch was advised this was the way to go by his idol SAF) - this has backfired horribly. We've seen money wasted on dimwit athletes, we've seen contracts of pivotal players run down, we've seen favouritism and the dressing room leaders pandered to, whilst the academy has become almost an afterthought for the summer holiday tournaments and the odd away day in the Micky mouse cup.

More than anything, we need to revamp the whole structure of the club. We need to get a good DOF/Sporting Director in, get in a really good recruitment/analytics/scouting team. It's not all about spending big, it's about spending smart and making best use of resources on tap.

The player that put four past us last night cost Bayern 8m.

 

[todd1882]

I'm sorry but this would be the worst managing ever. Drop a young lad who is working his ass off and improving? He's not technically the best but he's a workman similar to a Jordan Henderson for me.
With all the shit going on, Harry winks being dropped isn't the answer.

The issue is our defence

Enough of this shit. People have been saying this for the longest for under-performing players. This is why we are in the position we are in. some of these players have not improved. You drop who deserves dropping. He's a professional, no time for emotions. If he doesn't develop then that's his fault. You want to play then be better. Perhaps if Dele had gotten dropped in the middle of 1 of his many bumblefests he would have had a good look at himself and worked on his game.

Now I like Winks but he's had enough gametime to develop but for balance's sake 2 of our MFers need dropping when GLC comes back and that will probably be Winks and Sissoko unless 1 of them develops some defensive instincts. Ndombele ain't going nowhere and CE shouldn't get a sniff with Lamela and GLC. Now that leaves Dier (or Foyth, or someone else that wants to step up) to show us he is worth keeping beyond this year.

That would leave a balanced MF which, in theory, should help our defense and get people out of other people's way and space...at least in the MF.

 

[hiatus]

Admin
If hiatus wouldn't mind, maybe we could merge this into the existing TFC Tactical thread, just so it's all in one place ?

Tactics - TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

WARNING THIS THREAD CONTAINS LANGUAGE THAT MAY BE DEEMED BLASPHEMOUS AND CONTAIN PHRASES THAT GO AGAINST PROPER FOOTBALL GEEZER GRAIN. IF THIS KIND OF THING PUTS A BUG UP YOUR ARSE, WORDS LIKE FORMATION, TACTICS, METRICS, STATS ETC MAKE YOUR SPHINCTER CLENCH, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FUCK OFF AND...

www.thefightingcock.co.uk

Thanks bus-conductor and Admin .

I searched for something similar but I'll admit I didn't look that hard.

 

[hiatus]

So Sissoko admits what I’ve been arguing for ages. That diamond is killing us. To survive, Poch has to go back to what worked. 4231/433/343 with a pressing game. No more of this giant chasm between our defence and attack.

I think the diamond has worked a couple of times but Poch learned the wrong lessons. And it worked primarily when Llorente was up top in the Champions League. But it does not utilize our squad strengths best.

 

[hiatus]

Disagree I prefer him at RB.

 

[hiatus]

Fine-worthy offense. Just awful.

 

[StripiestPilot]

I think the diamond has worked a couple of times but Poch learned the wrong lessons. And it worked primarily when Llorente was up top in the Champions League. But it does not utilize our squad strengths best.

It worked OK when we were chasing, when it was worth opening up to try and win games in the last 20 minutes. It has its uses, but we’ve seen that it is not a useable formation from the start of matches.

 

[bus-conductor]

Enough of this shit. People have been saying this for the longest for under-performing players. This is why we are in the position we are in. some of these players have not improved. You drop who deserves dropping. He's a professional, no time for emotions. If he doesn't develop then that's his fault. You want to play then be better. Perhaps if Dele had gotten dropped in the middle of 1 of his many bumblefests he would have had a good look at himself and worked on his game.

Now I like Winks but he's had enough gametime to develop but for balance's sake 2 of our MFers need dropping when GLC comes back and that will probably be Winks and Sissoko unless 1 of them develops some defensive instincts. Ndombele ain't going nowhere and CE shouldn't get a sniff with Lamela and GLC. Now that leaves Dier (or Foyth, or someone else that wants to step up) to show us he is worth keeping beyond this year.

That would leave a balanced MF which, in theory, should help our defense and get people out of other people's way and space...at least in the MF.

As I said above, a future with a CM3 hopefully has Ndombele and Lo Celso as the 8’s either side of someone who can do the 6 job properly. But as a squad option, Winks would still be a shitload better as an 8 in a proper CM3 set up than Sissoko, as would Skipp. At least the pair of them aren’t scared of showing for the ball and can pass with their heads up under a bit of pressure. And both are nippy enough and have the energy you need to press properly in midfield.

Dier and Sissoko are not good enough technically or dynamic enough to play a pro-active brand of football at the level we are trying and aspiring to.

As I said with Trippier (when people mooted Dier, Foyth, Aurier etc) he’s not perfect but he’s better than most of the alternatives until we sign (or develop KWP) sometimes ne truly better.

Same with Winks, he’s not ideal but until Ndombele and LC are up and running, and we either sign or develop a proper 6, he’s definitely still a more viable option than big athletic donkeys clunking around where a midfield should be.

Chelsea finished above us with Jorginho playing the same role, and he’s as defensively challenged as Winks is.

But Poch has to wise the fuck up quick smart and start matching up his coaching, tactics and team selections.

Not my first choice, or even second, but I’d rather see Eriksen or Alli as 8’s than that fucking carthorse clumping around anymore. If we are going to lose games, let’s fucking lose them at least trying to play proper football.

 

[Spursidol]

This Bayern game was pretty much perfect for highlighting many of the issues that are wrong right now. You could run it as a power point demo to cover many of the bases.

We are a team that is structurally poor, tactically confused, lethargic in our application. We have a manager who continues to pick players that don't suit his structure and tactics and whose naivety has often been shown up on the big occasions, in the last 12 months has been shown up by much humbler opponents.

This is not a simple problem of one player or one position or one area of the pitch.

The first 30 minutes were pretty good. We came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, we were pressing as a team pretty well, Winks was busying about, Ndombele was threading wonderful defence splitting passes, and even Sissoko looked vaguely like a footballer. The fact that they started in a 4231 helped too, as our 1+2 CM3, when it was in this early energy phase, could outnumber them.

But then it quickly fell apart, after 30 minutes we were fucking spent, people stopped pressing, stood off, stopped offering themselves up for the ball, as a result the shape started to get more exposed - particularly the right back zone - as the forward payers just fucking ambled about, and the spanking that many of us had said would happen if we pulled this shit against a "top" side finally materialised.

People are constantly latching onto to things like the fact that we don't have a proper DM or our RB isn't great (although we were assured by many that it was all Trippier's fault). Things don't go as progressively badly wrong as they have been going for the last 2 years because of just one or two personnel issues. City lost Fernandinho and their LB at times last couple of years, but they didn't just fucking melt into being shit everywhere. Bayern scored 5 goals playing without a pure DM and a pretty shit RB playing at LB in the second half. Because they at least have the fundamental basics endemically ingrained.

DM

Winks isn't always ideal in that 6/Hub role, but it's not that simple, it is compounded by having Sissoko out there as the 6/8 partner in a CM2, or as the 8 in the CM3, who doesn't want to show for the ball when we need outlets under pressure, and is generally so fucking slow at reading and reacting without out the ball. And now we have Ndombele out there too, with the ball he's excellent, without the ball he's got learning to do, also not the most defensively dynamic, and needs to be more proactive looking for it when we are playing out.

A perfect example (and I've posted stuff like this before as has RESPECT THE COCK demonstrating this) is the third goal. Winks makes the initial mistake of passing the ball back to Rose when he actually has time to turn. What happens then is that Sissoko sees what is happening but actively refuses to show for the ball, move toward Rose or move into a position where he can offer Rose or Winks an option, so Rose has no other option but to give it back to Winks (who is the only one prepared to offer himself up) who now has absolutely no options at all because Sissoko still hasn't read or moved into a position to receive the ball:

First mistake - Winks goes backwards instead of forwards:

Winks move to receive the ball, Sissoko just stands there and fucking points (at fuck all as ever) so even when Rose does pass the ball to Winks, Sissoko doesn't even make himself available for the next phase - he just assumes it will "work itself out" if he points enough:

Now Winks has the ball, but with no options as Sissoko has made no effort to offer himself:

Result, Winks is pressed out of possession, and they score. Everyone blames Winks entirely, but he was just part of the clusterfuck, but the real problem is players like Winks not having options on the ball because others are fucking lazy or hiding, and that's become endemic at times in this midfield, and when your midfield isn't functioning, it's like a car with a fucked engine.

And Ndombele was just as guilty. He has to get more proactive in seeking out the ball in a team that wants to move the ball from front to back, and he's also got to get more diligent defensively. The thing with Sissoko is, he doesn't offer what Ndombele offers on the ball either.

So yes, Winks is definitely not ideal, I would dearly have loved us to buy a proper 6 in the last two windows, and I really don't think he's the future in this remit, but we also need to get the whole midfield balance right. We need three proper footballers in there, a good footballing busy cunting 6, with hopefully a developing Ndombele and scheming, more dynamic Lo Celso either side, rendering Winks a squad option.

RB

Another area of constant apoplexy. I said for the last two years that the issue is not Trippier per se. He wasn't perfect, definitely had some deficiencies, but the problem was clearly Poch's structure, tactical application and selections that were counter intuitive to the system he was insisting our FB's play.

Its being exposed even more now because Aurier doesn't have Trippier's brain or even Walker's recovery pace, which could compensate sometimes. Aurier does stupid things, and when Gnabry raced away for the third, he should not have dived in (just as he shouldn't have tugged Bertrand), he should have stayed on his feet and tried to catch him or put pressure on him - as Gnabry would eventually be a bit slower because he had to dribble with the ball and cut in - but the situation arose because Kane and Alli just fucking stood there and watched as the Bayern defenders knocked it around, then out to the LB.

If you are going to play the high line and push FB's up, then pressing up top is absolutely fucking fundamental. Or put a structure in place that compensates, preferably both. Otherwise you pull the CM's up and out of shape to press where the forwards should be and that leaves massive spaces, vertically and laterally for opponent AM's and forwards to get into - See the Newcastle goal.

You cannot play a high defensive line, ask your RB to push right up with your midfield and beyond and then not pressure the opposition on the ball - it will continually expose that full back zone.

So yes, Aurier is not the brightest, he's not ideal, but as we have seen, it doesn't matter who we play there, if Poch doesn't fucking wise up and get the structure and tactics right, the RB will continue to be exposed and bare the brunt of Poch's tactics.

SELECTIONS

You cannot keep picking players that are counter intuitive to the way you want to play as a collective. If you want to play out from the back and play through the opponent press - which more and more are doing now - you cannot have big dumb units that are uncomfortable under that press and lack the brains, 360 vision or technique to deal with it. This was true 3 years ago with Dier and it's even truer with Sissoko now. These players are also invariably spent after 30 minutes and just spend the rest of the game ambling about standing off, or in Dier's case retreating back int the CB's shorts.

Moura as a fucking CF. Offers absolutely nothing to team play in this role and just gets in Kane's way. Head down, scurry scurry then fuck all. CB's as fucking RB's. Alli bumbling about as the lone creative hub. CM2's against 433's. CM2’s like Winks/Sissoko that cannot play out and also aren’t defensively diligent enough to protect the cb’s whilst also covering advanced fb’s. The fucking wanky diamond. The wanky 442 when the wanky diamond fucks up. Stupid subs that make us worse not better.


FORMAT

Once again we got the fucking diamond. Poch won't let it go will he, no matter how many times it fucks us up the arse. Just play a fucking 433 for fuck sake.

With the midfielders we have it's absolutely vital we play a a CM3 system to compensate for the various deficiencies they all have. And they need three ahead of them spread out more laterally to occupy opponents defenders and FB's, and they all need to start working cohesively without the ball as a group.

You've got Kane who is the ideal central fulcrum and players like Son, Lamela, Moura (Sessegnon to come in too) who would be much better as wide forwards, and would allow us to press in a better shape and help protect the FB areas. We could use Alli as a false 9 sometimes, or occasionally as an 8 if Ndombele, Lo Celso or Eriksen aren't available. But lets stop pretending he's composed enough to be a lone 10, the only season he looked good enough was when we played the 3421 and he had Eriksen up there next to him doing his thing.


APPLICATION

A lot has been written about our press, or lack thereof. We don't necessarily have to press like nutters for 90 minutes, in fact that's completely unrealistic, Klopp worked this out pretty quickly. But we need to start doing it again, and in a cohesive manner, game phases need to be managed so much better. Whether we are pressing high or alternating phases, those phases need to be coordinated, and it's never acceptable to just allow the opposition phases where no pressure is applied at all and the shape just drifts about like a fart in the fucking wind.

But again, Poch needs to start picking the right format and more importantly the right personnel to facilitate this. Big lumbering units that chug about, blowing hard after every sprint are counter productive. Stupid players, that struggle to read and coordinate offensive and defensive transitions are counter productive.

Poch has signed stupid athletes, has been asking them to do complicated things, and then bitches about a lack of intensity and intelligence.

CLUB

The biggest mistake Levy made was to make Poch the de facto "Manager" three years ago. I understand why it happened, at the time Poch's stock was top of the hip parade, everyone wanted him, to pacify him Levy gave him a mega pay rise and even more control over transfer strategy (maybe Poch was advised this was the way to go by his idol SAF) - this has backfired horribly. We've seen money wasted on dimwit athletes, we've seen contracts of pivotal players run down, we've seen favouritism and the dressing room leaders pandered to, whilst the academy has become almost an afterthought for the summer holiday tournaments and the odd away day in the Micky mouse cup.

More than anything, we need to revamp the whole structure of the club. We need to get a good DOF/Sporting Director in, get in a really good recruitment/analytics/scouting team. It's not all about spending big, it's about spending smart and making best use of resources on tap.

The player that put four past us last night cost Bayern 8m.

Thanks for taking the time to write this - I agree with the vast majority of it.

Would be good if Poch read it too, although curiously I think he has understood some of it from a different point of view by saying that the *squad rebuild is going to be painful". Just hope he has the balls to recognise that too many of the acquisitions when he was in charge of getting players have been ",meh" which had contributed to the problem and will support whatever structural changes (DoF or whatever by whichever name) is put
in place.

 

[todd1882]

Dier and Sissoko are not good enough technically or dynamic enough to play a pro-active brand of football at the level we are trying and aspiring to.

Not even arguing half the stuff you've proffered in this one. Sure, I'm not saying bin Winks but as I said in the summer it would be ridiculous to place the expectations and workload of starting on him this season when we were talking about a 'painful rebuild'.

As you say about Dier and sissoko so goes for Winks in his respective position. He's good but he has not improved in his use of the ball and vision and is not 'at the level we are trying and aspiring to'. Backup was what he should have gone into the season as.

No one is arguing that dier and Sissoko are anything more than they are BUT they are what we have now and ain't nobody else coming through that door this season...except fucking dybala because he will fix what ails us But Dier will sit, cover, and follow a runner or two thus providing some balance. That's what it's come to apparently.

And I will prefer to see Dier at the 6 with the new bodies before making a decision on whether Winks is the best of a bad bunch there. Winks is kind of a defensive headless chicken BC, still running around like a young player trying to impress his coach with effort instead of reading the game.

 

[john10]

hi guys, heres my take on spurs this season, danny rose is a crap fullback, aurier is a crap player, dele alli has lost his game, and now looks nowhere good enough, and we played all three against bayern, talk about letting bayern have lots of space wide, we had no fullbacks they were too busy up front, and doing bugger all up there as well, we basically played two at the back verts and aldi , they were the last line and they didnt know what hit them, as for alli, is this the same player as the years before who was making all the headlines, hes living on that move where he arrives late in the box, but now thats gone, he is not first team, and moura should have played instead, our defence has let us down in the league this season, the fullbacks again, and when we face a team with great first touch and pace, we were bound to get beat, sell rose, sell aurier, sell wanyama, and possibly alli if he doesnt start playing decent football again, and eriksen is not the same player as before, he doesnt want to be here, we must sell in jan, these players are not top players, and we need to buy top quality fullbacks who know how to defend, midfields strong, attacking midfields good, strikers good but could do with another to help kane workload, leicester city was the warning, and we failed to learn from it, its not disastrous, we will get better, but only if we sort out the fullbacks, and keep alli and eriksen on the bench.

coys

 

[hiatus]

As I said above, a future with a CM3 hopefully has Ndombele and Lo Celso as the 8’s either side of someone who can do the 6 job properly. But as a squad option, Winks would still be a shitload better as an 8 in a proper CM3 set up than Sissoko, as would Skipp. At least the pair of them aren’t scared of showing for the ball and can pass with their heads up under a bit of pressure. And both are nippy enough and have the energy you need to press properly in midfield.

Dier and Sissoko are not good enough technically or dynamic enough to play a pro-active brand of football at the level we are trying and aspiring to.

As I said with Trippier (when people mooted Dier, Foyth, Aurier etc) he’s not perfect but he’s better than most of the alternatives until we sign (or develop KWP) sometimes ne truly better.

Same with Winks, he’s not ideal but until Ndombele and LC are up and running, and we either sign or develop a proper 6, he’s definitely still a more viable option than big athletic donkeys clunking around where a midfield should be.

Chelsea finished above us with Jorginho playing the same role, and he’s as defensively challenged as Winks is.

But Poch has to wise the fuck up quick smart and start matching up his coaching, tactics and team selections.

Not my first choice, or even second, but I’d rather see Eriksen or Alli as 8’s than that fucking carthorse clumping around anymore. If we are going to lose games, let’s fucking lose them at least trying to play proper football.

Ndombele/Winks/Lo Celso as 8s makes sense. I know you bring up Jorginho but he had Kante next to him. Kante is still Kante even if he is a bit wider and further up the pitch.

I don't think we need a proactive 6, we just need someone who is defensively sound. Wanyama and Dier played that role for 2 years when we were playing great football. Skipp has shown flashes but he needs more game time.

Dele was an 8 for a lot of last year and people lost their fucking minds even though he's really good at it. He needs the freedom to make those runs as it opens up so much of the pitch for Son/Kane to exploit, but he can't do that playing further back.

 

[todd1882]

Dele was an 8 for a lot of last year and people lost their fucking minds even though he's really good at it.

Are you serious?

 

[Spursidol]

As I said above, a future with a CM3 hopefully has Ndombele and Lo Celso as the 8’s either side of someone who can do the 6 job properly. But as a squad option, Winks would still be a shitload better as an 8 in a proper CM3 set up than Sissoko, as would Skipp. At least the pair of them aren’t scared of showing for the ball and can pass with their heads up under a bit of pressure. And both are nippy enough and have the energy you need to press properly in midfield.

Dier and Sissoko are not good enough technically or dynamic enough to play a pro-active brand of football at the level we are trying and aspiring to.

As I said with Trippier (when people mooted Dier, Foyth, Aurier etc) he’s not perfect but he’s better than most of the alternatives until we sign (or develop KWP) sometimes ne truly better.

Same with Winks, he’s not ideal but until Ndombele and LC are up and running, and we either sign or develop a proper 6, he’s definitely still a more viable option than big athletic donkeys clunking around where a midfield should be.

Chelsea finished above us with Jorginho playing the same role, and he’s as defensively challenged as Winks is.

But Poch has to wise the fuck up quick smart and start matching up his coaching, tactics and team selections.

Not my first choice, or even second, but I’d rather see Eriksen or Alli as 8’s than that fucking carthorse clumping around anymore. If we are going to lose games, let’s fucking lose them at least trying to play proper football.

A few people putting Lo Celso into CM , which is where he played at PSG and looked "ok" but at Real Betis I think he's played further forward as an AM - and looked far better further forward.

Whilst I know we have issues at CM, we equally have issues in the AM positions with Dele our of form, Eriksen much less effective and Moura not playing as a winger but often trying to be in the same positions as Kane, so that he's not as effective as he might be. Effective off the bench but not as a starter.

So to partner Kane up front we have Son and Lamela ( who fortunately has stayed fit for longer than most of the previous few seasons,).

At CM we have Ndombele who looks class but still learning defensive duties and has problems atm after 60 mins, Winks who is a very willing recycler and learning defensive duties who could both do with being partnered by Dier who looked fit (admittedly against Colchester but better start somewhere) defensively is strong. The three together are good, the first two might be fine against lesser sides but against better sides it's a CM 3 for me atm.

Sissoko is good driving forward but no end product so I'd prefer him as a sub. Skill also needs to play as over time he could be a realistic alternative - just a question of getting Poch to play him on a regular basis in selected games and probably often off the bench.

So in short - suggest Lo Celso plays as an AM where he was most effective at Real Betis rather than as a CM where he was average - and hence the loan to Real Betis where he made his name.

 

[john10]

alli has been no better than a six, performance wise this season when played, hes basically turned from a promising top player, to a passenger, no game, and a big liability to team.

 

[hiatus]

Are you serious?

Don't make me bust out the articles and charts again. He was objectively good at being an 8 before his hamstring injury in January that kept him out 7 weeks. It naturally hampered his scoring and assist production. There's the whole Dele thread for this though so I'll leave it at that as I'd like to not derail this for something that seems to have been beaten to death already from both sides of the argument.

 

[john10]

i watch a lot of the best league in the world, and it isnt the premier league, its la liga. premier league all hype and money, and lo celso played brilliantly for betis, who are rugged but stylish, and lo celso excelled in the team, he is top quality, high technique, great shot, tackles well, and takes no shit, and heres the good news , he may be on loan to us, like ceballos for Woolwich, but theres a big difference, hes not really on loan, and will be staying after loan period its all to do with contracts, payments etc, as explained by south american journalist on talksport, and ceballos is definetely only a loan, he wants to go back to real madrid when loan is over, thats why we didnt loan him, and gooners got him, they were desperate.
ndombele is looking good also, he will get more used to it soon, and become one of our best players, as for sissoko, WELL DONE TOP MARKS, he has shown the other players the way to turn from average to top, and he is now a definete first teamer, improved in so many ways, passing, running with the ball, heading, tackling, touch quick passing, the guy has gone from disaster signing to great signing.

 

[bus-conductor]

Thanks bus-conductor and Admin .

I searched for something similar but I'll admit I didn't look that hard.

No worries, I wasn't getting precious about you starting a new thread for it, I just think it's handy if we can keep this kind of stuff in one easy to remember place so we can refer back to it and find stuff.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

At least the pair of them aren’t scared of showing for the ball and can pass with their heads up under a bit of pressure.

I disagree with you regarding Winks here. He looked terrified the other night, does not like to receive the ball under pressure, is very poor at taking the ball on the half-turn and is killing our tempo. Misses so many opportunities to progress the play, generally speaking.

 

[john10]

Don't make me bust out the articles and charts again. He was objectively good at being an 8 before his hamstring injury in January that kept him out 7 weeks. It naturally hampered his scoring and assist production. There's the whole Dele thread for this though so I'll leave it at that as I'd like to not derail this for something that seems to have been beaten to death already from both sides of the argument.

i see your point on dele, but his game has gone, and shows no signs of improving yet, and if we want to be a top club, we need players playing well, yes i know hes been injured, and could get his form back hopefully, but we cant play him as a starter in this form, moura and lamela are better and deserve being ahead of him, hes lost the spark that got him the headlines, but hes a shadow of his former self, and not good enough, but like i said hopefully gets the top form back, 6 rating at best, no more than that.