TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

[hiatus]

Who's the guilty fuckers this time, I can't make them out ?

Sissoko. Dele is next to him but he doesn’t turn - you can see it in the second shot clearly.

 

[hiatus]

Fort what it's worth, I think Lo Celso was very good as a CM/8 for PSG (they even had him playing as the 6/DM a couple of times - not so ideal) and this is personally where I'd like to see him play, but only as an 8, and only if we play a CM3. Him and Ndombele either side of a proper 6 should, in theory, be the dream ticket as a midfield.

I'm hoping (maybe forlornly) we move to a 433, in that system, Lo Celso really doesn't fit as a wide forward. But we do already have Son, Lamela, Moura and Sessegnon who could fill those wide attacking remits.

Then we'd have New 6/DM, Skipp, Winks, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Alli (at a push), Eriksen (until he fucks off) to populate the midfield.

This - it’s perfect. Even if it’s just a competent 6 it’s so good because the 6 doesn’t need to do anything but defend and break up play. Lo Celso is bad out wide in a 4-2-3-1, just ask Argentina.

 

[bus-conductor]

I disagree with you regarding Winks here. He looked terrified the other night, does not like to receive the ball under pressure, is very poor at taking the ball on the half-turn and is killing our tempo. Misses so many opportunities to progress the play, generally speaking.

I think terrified is his default expression, alternated with exuberant puppy. Look, we been here before, I know he's not Iniesta, I've repeatedly said in my ideal team there's no place for him in the first 11, but he does have some qualities that we are severely short of right now.

I have also criticised him for his reticence at times to see or try and make the incisive pass - I criticised him for passing backwards when he could have gone forwards leading to the goal against Bayern. But...He is at least more likely to show for an out ball when team mates are under pressure than Sissoko or Dier (and Ndombele right now). He at least has reasonable technique, if not orgasmic. He isn't brilliant on the half turn, but at least he manages one occasionally, and also can move with the ball occasionally. In short he's a busy little steady Eddy who does lots of things reasonable well, but nothing exceptionally. Which is more tolerable than some of the dopey, inept units we've seen trundling about. But that 6/4/DM/Holding role - whatever we want to call it - is just not ideal for him/us - unfortunately we don't have a single A grade option there right now.

I'd even happily see Skipp given some time ahead of Winks some games, because I think he does have some of the qualities Winks comes up short on. He does see an incisive pass, has excellent technique, is tenacious without being a headless flapper.

 

[bus-conductor]

Sissoko. Dele is next to him but he doesn’t turn - you can see it in the second shot clearly.

Dopey wanker.

 

[bus-conductor]

Another great example that I meant to post happened around in the 39th minute - of anyone's still got it. RESPECT THE COCK hiatus ?

We broke from a Bayern attack, Ndombele plays it to Sissokowho plays it to Son, we are bombing forward and Son's options are a) play it straight ahead to Sissoko, which puts into a 3v3 or even 3v2 scenario, but Sissoko vehemently points Son away from him saying "I don't want the fucking ball" and forces Son to pass it out wide to Ndombele and the move breaks down completely.

 

[OldBoy68]

You conduct autopsy on the dead right?

 

[todd1882]

Another great example that I meant to post happened around in the 39th minute - of anyone's still got it. RESPECT THE COCK hiatus ?

We broke from a Bayern attack, Ndombele plays it to Sissokowho plays it to Son, we are bombing forward and Son's options are a) play it straight ahead to Sissoko, which puts into a 3v3 or even 3v2 scenario, but Sissoko vehemently points Son away from him saying "I don't want the fucking ball" and forces Son to pass it out wide to Ndombele and the move breaks down completely.

Sorry old chap but in neither of those pictures is that pass on to Sissoko. On this evidence I would suggest that the pass out right is a good one. From the first photo the move is actually to dribble 'left' into the center...the pass out right will still be there (prolly more open) and it will pick up other, better angles for other options. That CB is baiting that pass to Sissoko in the first. It's a pimp. You must see this?

Sissoko could peel off to the center and that would be a good play (hypothetically) but he can't be faulted for point play away from him at this point.

 

[Borodin55]

So there is a lot of good discussion being spread across a lot of different threads regarding tactics, formations, etc...but I wanted to have a place to talk more broadly about tactics as a whole rather than individual matches or player threads. I couldn't find a similar thread, so if there is one, please feel free to bump and merge. To kick off from last night's disasterpiece theater, here is a good article on what may be wrong with Spurs right now:

Three Theories About What’s Wrong at Tottenham Hotspur

Of particular note is point 3 (below).

I think we have players on the roster now to make the midfield better, I am just confused as to why Poch seems to be setting up the team to have our weakness exploited (LB/RB/DM) rather than creating a team to mask those challenges (3-5-2/4-3-3). This isn't a new problem, so why we are trying to solve it with things that clearly don't work (Winks as a DM/base of the diamond).

Other concerns and issues aside (investment, challenges behind the scenes, contracts, injuries, match fitness etc..), I still don't feel like Poch is putting the team in the best position to win.

Tottenham’s midfield is still horrible.

Speaking of Ndombele, Dele, and Lo Celso—did you know Tottenham’s midfield was really bad last year? And did you know that we’re basically still playing the same very bad midfield this year because Ndombele, Lo Celso, and Dier have been struggling with injuries.

It’s possible that what we are seeing now is merely the chickens coming home to roost. Spurs have not had a reliable ball-winning midfielder for over a year nor have we had a consistent progression midfielder. Theoretically the addition of Ndombele and Lo Celso should fix that, as would, you know, actually playing Eric Dier. But as long as Ndombele and Lo Celso are struggling for fitness and Dier is on the bench, Spurs will continue to struggle. You need a functioning midfield to compete at the level Spurs want to compete at. Tottenham don’t have such a midfield right now. But by the end of this month they likely will, assuming Dele, Ndombele, and Lo Celso have all returned to full fitness and Poche has ended his bizarre banishment of Dier.

Tottenham’s midfield genuinely is bad. And in the vast majority of cases, it is going to be difficult or impossible to compensate for that across a long run of fixtures. Certainly it seems to be the case that Tottenham’s performance against Bayern correlates almost exactly with “was Tanguy Ndombele in the game?”



Thankfully, we should know by sometime in November what the issues actually are. Over the next two months Spurs only have one match where you should probably expect the team to lose—a rough home fixture with Liverpool. Otherwise all of the league fixtures are games where you’d figure on Spurs to at least get a draw—and you could reasonably expect a win in most of the games. Likewise, the two Champions League fixtures are with Red Star Belgrade. That’s a beast of an away day, of course, but in terms of the quality of the opponent, Red Star is not Bayern.

Moreover, Dele and Ndombele are already back and playing their way into fitness. Lo Celso should return this month. And at this point there is no reason whatsoever to persist in starting Winks when Dier appears to be fit. If in November we’re still consistently seeing Winks and Sissoko in midfield, that would be a cause for concern. Similarly, if we’re seeing the new personnel and results have still been poor, that would be a cause for concern. But ultimately I still suspect that the problem is midfield, the fix is fairly obvious, and if the team strings together a couple strong performances we may find that we forget about this awful start to the season fairly quickly.

The Liverpool fixture is away not home .... 27/10/19

 

[Devanteswing]

Have held off saying anything as it's still very raw but the tactics are really bothering me far more than anything else.

Have we ever played well with this diamond? It's awful and I could be wrong as I have a shit memory and haven't properly researched it but our downturn in form coincided with pochs determination to use the diamond.

Right now I'd just like us to get rid of it and go back to either the trusted old 4231 or 343 . Both formations suit our squad, the team know how to play both and we had our best years playing them.

Also dier should be reintroduced to the team. At the moment I'd favour the 343 with three centre backs , sissoko and rose/sessengon as wing backs and dier and n'dombele Infront . That should give us enough defensive bodies to sure it up.

I still love poch but even I have to admit his behaviours and decisions have the hallmarks of the beginning of the end. I just hope he reflects and goes back to what brought us to the dance.

One extra point about those formations. Kane would again be at the tip. Ever since he was asked to play in a two his looked nowhere near as effective. Son won't suffer either as his fine coming from the left.

 

[bus-conductor]

Sorry old chap but in neither of those pictures is that pass on to Sissoko. On this evidence I would suggest that the pass out right is a good one. From the first photo the move is actually to dribble 'left' into the center...the pass out right will still be there (prolly more open) and it will pick up other, better angles for other options. That CB is baiting that pass to Sissoko in the first. It's a pimp. You must see this?

Sissoko could peel off to the center and that would be a good play (hypothetically) but he can't be faulted for point play away from him at this point.

You need to look again, but take your unit loving goggles off this time. The pass is on, and it would have been even more on if Sissoko hadn’t just stood there fucking pointing.

 

[Spursidol]

Fort what it's worth, I think Lo Celso was very good as a CM/8 for PSG (they even had him playing as the 6/DM a couple of times - not so ideal) and this is personally where I'd like to see him play, but only as an 8, and only if we play a CM3. Him and Ndombele either side of a proper 6 should, in theory, be the dream ticket as a midfield.

I'm hoping (maybe forlornly) we move to a 433, in that system, Lo Celso really doesn't fit as a wide forward. But we do already have Son, Lamela, Moura and Sessegnon who could fill those wide attacking remits.

Then we'd have New 6/DM, Skipp, Winks, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Alli (at a push), Eriksen (until he fucks off) to populate the midfield.

Must admit that I didn't see much if anything of Lo Celso at PSG, but from what I could tell PSG fans weren't over enthusiastic about him at CM (not overtly critical just saying he was 'ok' but nothing more) coupled with the fact that PSG sent him on loan after that season, has given me the sense he want 'all that' as CM.

However at Real Betis as an AM, he's 'the best player they've ever had' giving (I think it was) Real Madrid nightmares as they Betis beat Madrid (not often they do that) with great stats.

I've always pencilled in Lo Celso as an AM/CM so he can play where we most need him, but as I say I think I'd start him as an AM - other benefit is that the CM position is more pressurised so better to start him where any mistakes/lack of understanding of PL intensity arent so much of an issue.

But good we have options

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Look, we been here before, I know he's not Iniesta

You could do me a big favour and stop mentioning him in the same breath as Jorginho and Iniesta. It's cringeworthy. Where he is concerned, it is like watching a mouse being chased by a cat. And I really fear for the mouse. He manages to look awfully busy whilst achieving almost nothing. Of course it wouldn't at all be like you to rub one out over an academy product, would it?

If he played for Woolwich or anyone else, we would be laughing our cocks off at him.

 

[todd1882]

You need to look again, but take your unit loving goggles off this time. The pass is on, and it would have been even more on if Sissoko hadn’t just stood there fucking pointing.

BC and anyone else that thinks this pass is on you are wrong. And I am not here to pump up Sissoko as in my previous post in this thread I have stated that I expect and hope him to be sat down when GLC comes back.

But this pass is not on based on evidence in this photo. They are running full speed BC so even if Sonny were shaped and ready to deliver that ball it would have to be directed to the shade change in the grass. But of course Sonny is not shaped and ready to deliver is he? Even notice the line you've drawn, it's left of both player's current position because if it were drawn accurately it would show how tight it would be to make that pass. And notice the body position of the CB. He is moving laterally and waiting for that pass. It would be a pimp of a pass.

I have stated that one option Sissoko has is to peel off left into the intersection of your drawn 3 lines. But I'm not sure that gains us anything here in this example. The pass out to Ndombele might be the most reasonable pass, then in to Sissoko or Sonny if he continues his run.

I would say that this is a break that is not that threatening from the get as there is not numerical advantage and the ball starts from a reasonably safe spot from a defensive perspective. But don't claim agenda here. Surely you recognize that no player wants a ball coming from such a tight angle from behind them? There is no way to keep your head up and usually a clattering follows.

Sissoko and many others do not show for the ball. That is so, so very true. The only person that ever really showed for the ball was Mousa. I wonder why that was/still is?

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

BC and anyone else that thinks this pass is on you are wrong. And I am not here to pump up Sissoko as in my previous post in this thread I have stated that I expect and hope him to be sat down when GLC comes back.

But this pass is not on based on evidence in this photo. They are running full speed BC so even if Sonny were shaped and ready to deliver that ball would have to be directed to the shade change in the grass. But of course Sonny is not shaped and ready to deliver is he? Even notice the line you've drawn, it's left of both player's current position because if it were drawn accurately it would show how tight it would be to make that pass. And notice the body position of the CB. He is moving laterally and waiting for that pass. It would be a pimp of a pass.

I have stated that one option Sissoko has is to peel off left into the intersection of your drawn 3 lines. But I'm not sure that gains us anything here in this example. The pass out to Ndombele might be the most reasonable pass, then in to Sissoko or Sonny if he continues his run.

I would say that this is a break that is not that threatening from the get as there is not numerical advantage and the ball starts from a reasonably safe spot from a defensive perspective. But don't claim agenda here. Surely you recognize that no player wants a ball coming from such a tight angle from behind them? There is no way to keep your head up and usually a clattering follows.

Sissoko and many others do not show for the ball. That is so, so very true. The only person that ever really showed for the ball was Mousa. I wonder why that was/still is?

And Son's pass, when it came, wasn't great anyway.

 

[todd1882]

You could do me a big favour and stop mentioning him in the same breath as Jorginho and Iniesta. It's cringeworthy. Where he is concerned, it is like watching a mouse being chased by a cat. And I really fear for the mouse. He manages to look awfully busy whilst achieving almost nothing.

This is it Five. It's like he's focused on the work of Modric and Parker but got distracted and missed the lessons on what Luka did with it after accelerating away from pressure. I've now begun to notice the routine occurring without initial pressure.

 

[iz futbal]

Goodness me. Are you suggesting Winks offers as much in possession as Jorginho does?

Winks doesnt have Jorginho's toenail worth of talent. He gets pressed and quickly passes to anywhere , doesnt matter if its the opponent , just kicks it brainless. But hes 'one of our own' , so hes the next Iniesta.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Also, from paying close attention to Jorginho in Chelsea's recent games against Liverpool and Lille, I see he does the same thing that Danny Parejo of Valencia does-he issues orders to his team throughout the game. He even helps marshall their last line of defence. He is like an orchestra conductor. It's extraordinary.

 

[todd1882]

And Son's pass, when it came, wasn't great anyway.

And Son's pass, when it came, wasn't great anyway.

Hold it, you've watched that shit again? Glutton!

So he did attempt it to Sissoko? It wouldn't surprise me because the angle makes the margin of error on the weight very small. It may not not seem that way to folks that haven't played...or grew up in BC's time/place where the ball would have never been on the ground that long. But that would be a tough pass to make and Sonny would not be the ideal deliverer and Sissoko is not the ideal receiver.

So try again BC but with better evidence. Your point has merit but your supporting evidence in this case is poor. I'm sure there are other instances within this game that better support your point. But it's a charge that could be levied at most of our players.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

So he did attempt it to Sissoko

No, he passed it to Ndombele, but it didn't match his stride. He had to change direction to gather it. And then he whacked it out of play!

 

[todd1882]

Also, from paying close attention to Jorginho in Chelsea's recent games against Liverpool and Lille, I see he does the same thing that Danny Parejo of Valencia does-he issues orders to his team throughout the game. He even helps marshall their last line of defence. He is like an orchestra conductor. It's extraordinary.

Did you just comparatively elevate some Chelsea scum to that Valencian god amongst men? Shame on you Five. You should know better.

No, he passed it to Ndombele, but it didn't match his stride. He had to change direction to gather it. And then he whacked it out of play!

But our boy BC says he should have squeezed it into the other window...you know, the tight, more central one where if a similar outcome occurred they would have been down our throats for what would have been their 2nd at that time.