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Sorry mate, thought we were using things that the other hadn't said as tools to dismiss their points?
You're obviously far too clever for me and this forum
Best to accept we disagree on this one
Got to say Schmood I think that is complete bollocks. He picks up the ball and immediately gets his head up and looks forward for a through pass. Only when no one is available does he go sideways to move the ball on, rarely does he pass backwards.
I said the same to my dad at the start of the cup game on the weekend, we watched throughout with an eye on him and by the end my dad was convinced. Just look at get Eriksen goal for example, hugely down to Carroll's incisive defence-splitting pass. He was MotM alongside Eriksen who was doing similar.
I'd love to see his pass map from that game, no idea where to get it, but I'm positive it will show how frequently he looks for a forward pass.
I don't know if he'll get better or not, and at present he's a long way behind Dembele, but to say he's crap is completely unwarranted, I think.
I watched him closely last night and he constantly one touch passed back to whoever gave it to him, normally Jan or Toby. I was being a bit hyperbolic saying he always passes backwards, but he rarely picks out a pass in the final third, creating chances. He has no ambition in his passes.
He had 3 successful passes in the final 3rd yesterday, none of which created a chance in a game we had 65% possession that is nowhere near good enough. We need CM's that create. He doesn't create, doesn't defend. What does he do?
Dier created more despite being the DM. He was doing everything for Carroll last night.
I'd be interested to see how many times he passed to Harry. I imagine not a lot, if at all.
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Read his profile on Squawka. Does not look good.
You can't say he's poor because he only passes sideways or backwards ( a statement that is categorically incorrect) and then refute the evidence when it's put to you because it contradicts your claim. It's like saying the sky is red because I know it is then refusing to look up when someone points out that it's actually blue.
The facts are that per 90 mins Carroll sees more ball than Dembele and only slightly less than Mason, makes more forward passes than Dembele and only one less than Mason, has more key passes than both and creates more chances than both, and that's only in the Premier League, not counting the Europa League where Carroll has put in some of his best performances.
You can't criticise a player with an argument that is grounded in statistics and and then when it's pointed out that you are irrefutably, categorically incorrect say that I reject the stats and know what I saw. Sure, criticise him because he's small and he lacks presence but those are the facts. It's also a fact that in the Premier League games he's started recently we haven't been losing when he's on the pitch, yet that doesn't stop everyone from blaming him for the loss.
I didn't say that. The reason I think he's crap is multi-faceted. If you'd read the thread, you'd know that. I also acknowledged he does pass forwards, so I didn't say only.
Total chances created:
Carroll = 7
Mason = 8
Dembele = 12
Not sure what stats you're looking at. Especially when saying I'm irrefutably wrong.
Your facts are wrong.
I said I know what I saw, in regards to seeing that Carroll isn't good enough and that he generally passed, one touch, back to the player who gave him the ball.
Try again.
EDIT - Oh, and the post you have quoted wasn't in response to the trajectory of his passes. Read what it was in reference to.
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So yeah, you actually did cite those as reasons why he was rubbish and, again, that is wrong. Also, had you read my post properly you would have clearly read that I said on a per 90 minutes basis that Carroll produces more key passes and creates more chances than Dembele and Mason. It's hardly fair, and a little disingenuous, comparing totals when the other two have played more minutes than Carroll.
From one Nick to another.....
courtesy of FourFourTwo
You can also see the breakdown between forward & backward passes, 27 & 10 respectively for Carroll on Wednesday night.
You've obviously not been reading the Tottenham Hotstats thread....shame on you
Again, read the bloody thread. I acknowledged that first post was hyperbolic as was the forward thing. Read the thread before throwing things I've already conceded in my face
Fine, whatever man, your stats may say that he's more creative than Dembele and Mason, but my eyes say different.
Look at that map
hibberni
just posted. Rarely does he play with any ambition. His passes are generally grouped on the left side of the halfway line. If that's key and creative to you, then more fool you.The dude is nowhere near good enough for Spurs. Nothing you can say will change that.
[QUOTE="Nick "Trevor" Sharp, post: 930934, member: 2612"
I'd love to see his pass map from that game, no idea where to get it, but I'm positive it will show how frequently he looks for a forward pass.
[/QUOTE]
Apologies NTS...you wanted the FA Cup game and I posted for Wednesday night.
I can't find anything for domestic cup games either.
I'd love to see his pass map from that game, no idea where to get it, but I'm positive it will show how frequently he looks for a forward pass.
[/QUOTE]
Apologies NTS...you wanted the FA Cup game and I posted for Wednesday night.
I can't find anything for domestic cup games either.
It was indeed the Cup game I was referring to as I was there, the Prem game I only watched on a stream so can't really draw as many conclusions. It does seem like he wasn't as effective in the second match to the first, but I was more surprised that someone could draw their main criticism as him not looking for a forwards pass, when his desire to make incisive defence splitting passes is exactly why I think he's good!
So wait, you use a statistics based argument about why he's not better in that area than Dembele and Mason yet deny the statistics, an area that is quantifiable; an area where the facts contradict your assertion. Nah you're right, that's completely logical.Again, read the bloody thread. I acknowledged that first post was hyperbolic as was the forward thing. Read the thread before throwing things I've already conceded in my face
Fine, whatever man, your stats may say that he's more creative than Dembele and Mason, but my eyes say different.
Look at that map
The dude is nowhere near good enough for Spurs. Nothing you can say will change that.
Anyway, he's clearly good enough for Spurs otherwise the manager wouldn't be selecting him.
Nope. I said he's shit. My first post was, he is shit, that opinion is based on watching him. Then the number monkeys turn up and I used them as a secondary tool because it seems it's the only way you people see the game and can talk football.So wait, you use a statistics based argument about why he's not better in that area than Dembele and Mason yet deny the statistics, an area that is quantifiable; an area where the facts contradict your assertion. Nah you're right, that's completely logical.
Anyway, he's clearly good enough for Spurs otherwise the manager wouldn't be selecting him.
There are lies, damned lies and statistics. God knows what you number monkeys would have done judging a player pre-1980.
A football players ability is not quantified by numbers as you so vehemently are trying to assert. A major, major part of the game is physical and mental, which numbers can't do anything for.
Numbers can prove anything if you twist them your way. Numbers can prove Ozil is better than Iniesta, yet people like me, who know football through experience know that this kinda shit isn't based on pass percentages, assist numbers, key pass bullshit.
I assume you haven't played the game to a certain level seeing as you hide behind numbers.
And lol at clearly good enough because he gets played. I could list you many, many players that have been given starts in the Premiership that clearly didnt cut the mustard.
Ali Dia once played in the Prem, by your logic, he must have been good enough.
In loosely linked logic, you could argue that Swansea and QPR, two far inferior sides than us, deemed he not good enough for them. But I won't argue that point.
lol
If you think Tom Carroll is better than Mason or Dembele then we can end this right here. That's absurd and where silly numbers show that they aren't the be all and end all.
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