Paulinho

[Pairsy1882]

If Paulinho has a great WC then Levy will want £30m+, no way would he sell him as low as £20m.

In fact knowing Levy, if he has a poor WC, he'll still want £25m+

See when figures like £30 million of £35 million start getting bandied about that is enough to turn anyone's head for a player like Paulinho. I would happily take that but £20 million does really seem worth a sniff to me.

 

[cahspur]

Well obviously any amount of money is going to help towards the cause but there are other players we would be better off offloading to raise the necessary funds to bring in any new recruits that we might want.

I can think of four or five players straight off the top of my head who could raise that amount of money and more, who are in all reality only bit part players in our squad.

Paulinho will come good, no quesiton, he has had his season to settle personally and hopefully next season the team as a whole will be more settled into a system that he might flourish in. Five league goals isn't a bad return for someone who has been hit by injury in his first season with a team that hasn't exactly been banging in goals.

We are in agreement that we would like to see a squad reduction, and that number is also about exactly the number I'd like to see moved on as well. But I can only assume from the fact that you don't want to sell Paulinho, but that we have the same rough estimate of outgoings, that you have other players in the midfield you would like to sell unless you are entirely satisfied with the options we currently have. If you do in fact wish to sell other central midfielders, who do you have in mind?

Of course any amount of money would help, but I think you're underestimated just how far 20 mil could go towards two targets alone I've cited in this thread that I feel very confident would benefit the squad massively. I don't think it's worth getting into for either of our sake's, but I would argue that the likelihood of Clasie alone being more beneficial to our squad next year than Paulinho is worth that gamble. I do not blame you at all for having hesitations to that, especially as you've already cited the fact that Paulinho is an established international from a strong national setup. But to me, from what I've seen of our problems in squad effectiveness and my evaluations of both players as well as a few others that would play the position, I am of the opinion that this would be a very astute move. I do not view an opposing opinion as inept, or ignorant, or a poor evaluation, but I will not deviate from my own regarding the two players. I do not deem the tumultuous season, managerial issues, tactical chaos, and move from South America as criteria enough to excuse the lack of inherent standout skillset Paulinho wields that merits spurning an offer worth even what we paid and at the expense of what we could gain with such a sum.

 

[Benjamin]

I was off at the barbershop...the points and counterpoints are basically exactly where they've been going. I'm just gonna agree to disagree at this point. We all want what's best for the team, we just don't agree on the best way to go about it.

 

[Benny]

I've never understood why people have used projected sales figures as reasons to sell someone, it's not like we get any of the money...

 

[paddyspurs]

I was off at the barbershop...the points and counterpoints are basically exactly where they've been going. I'm just gonna agree to disagree at this point. We all want what's best for the team, we just don't agree on the best way to go about it.

I don't think we need young players to bed in at the moment though, with such a young squad we are desperate for some experience out on the pitch. Signing 2 more young players with no PL experience (assuming that's how they'd be so cheap) sounds like repeating the problems we made last year to me. But you're right, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[cahspur]

I've never understood why people have used projected sales figures as reasons to sell someone, it's not like we get any of the money...

So because I don't receive a penny, I shouldn't ponder on any transfer business I believe to be beneficial to the squad within the restraints of reason and reality that arise from discussing suspected figures? Sure I wish I could sell Ade for a new world transfer record few and then buy Real Madrid, but that sounds a bit more ridiculous than discussing realistic hopes within my defined terms of reasonable fees now doesn't it?

 

[cahspur]

I don't think we need young players to bed in at the moment though, with such a young squad we are desperate for some experience out on the pitch. Signing 2 more young players with no PL experience (assuming that's how they'd be so cheap) sounds like repeating the problems we made last year to me. But you're right, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

In some positions I absolutely agree with you. For instance, I'd like to see us bring in Micah Richards to primarily play CB and give RB cover. Prem experience, title winner, and very vocal to develop into a leader. While you're right that we've had problems this year, I maintain that Baldini's failure to select the correct players for the correct roles has to be taken into consideration, and therefore cannot be used as a basis to discredit any searches for young talent that would be very suitable to our squad needs and the actual positions of weakness. So while I hope we go after British experience in a couple positions, there are a few others in which I see young, foreign talent that would be tailored to such a position. I thought Eriksen would be a perfect replacement for VdV two years ago, thought Lamela would struggle here, and thought Chadli would not be suited to a Prem winger role, so I'm not about to even blink at foreign talent just because Baldini is crap at his job.

 

[Wikipedia Brown]

IMO Dembele and Paulinho are about as close to a complete midfielder as you can get. They are so underrated by Spurs fans.

Dembele has been used as a DM mostly, and he's done that job better than a lot of dedicated DM's.

I agree with you that they both have a lot of different talents to showcase, but I simply mean complete in the sense that Dembele isn't so much of a goal threat whereas Paulinho doesn't quite share Dembele's ability on the ball.

 

[Wikipedia Brown]

So I ask you as I did OZHotspur , do you disagree that a more dynamic DLP/BTB type player and a better left back for the same price would be more beneficial than keeping Paulinho? If so, that should be the point of this discussion. This roundabout we seem to be going on is useless, especially as you have indeed misinterpreted some of my points and looking back I did indeed misinterpret your usage of the term "destroyer." For that I apologize. But this back and forth over the qualities of Paulinho himself was never the road I wished to take this discussion, so I regret that it's been bastardized in any heated exchange.

Hmm.. I still think there are other players I'd rather get rid of first, but I hear ya. As OZHotspur mentioned, the squad is probably big enough to where we can probably bring in a decent leftback and give Paulinho/Dembele/Bentaleb their run in the team with one of our destroyers. Though that scenario is predicated on them being fit for an entire season and our new manager not throwing Siggy or Chadli in the center of a 4-4-2 with one of our BTB players. I believe Paulinho, Dembele and Bentaleb to be pretty capable defensively, but it's as you say... with a high line, and as the ones expected to do the most defending it just doesn't work.

On a more exciting note... MOYES???

...:llorisserious:

 

[gibbs131]

Hmm.. I still think there are other players I'd rather get rid of first

For real. Paulinho is the last of this teams worries.

 

[Wikipedia Brown]

For real. Paulinho is the last of this teams worries.

Trust me Gibbsy, I'm with ya

 

[cahspur]

For real. Paulinho is the last of this teams worries.

Agreed that he is certainly nowhere close to the worst, but the point is that he is highly valued and the sale of him alone could generate funds that would benefit the whole of the squad. For the repeated thousandth time, this is not about demoting or downgrading Paulinho, it is about discussing whether or not the ends justify the means. In this case, along with a few others I think we should sell, I think the ends would justify the means.

 

[cahspur]

Hmm.. I still think there are other players I'd rather get rid of first, but I hear ya. As OZHotspur mentioned, the squad is probably big enough to where we can probably bring in a decent leftback and give Paulinho/Dembele/Bentaleb their run in the team with one of our destroyers. Though that scenario is predicated on them being fit for an entire season and our new manager not throwing Siggy or Chadli in the center of a 4-4-2 with one of our BTB players. I believe Paulinho, Dembele and Bentaleb to be pretty capable defensively, but it's as you say... with a high line, and as the ones expected to do the most defending it just doesn't work.

On a more exciting note... MOYES???

...:llorisserious:

An adamant FUUUUCK no. But we can discuss that in another thread if you so desire.

I'm not arguing the point of Paulinho/Dembele/Bentaleb's type of player alongside a "destroyer" CDM type of player, not arguing that at all as such a philosophy of the modern game is one I strongly advocate. I am very much a follower of the CDM, DLP/BTB, CAM central midfield pedigree. I like that many of the manager's we've been linked with are also of this modern ideology (in just a belief tangent, this is a major part of why I don't like Moyes as his tactics are obsolete), so it is reasonable to believe we will be undertaking such an initiative next season. Therefore, you and I are not in disagreement on such a matter and are reasonable to discuss our proposed individual player hopes for the midfield congruently for the same positions.

 

[gibbs131]

Agreed that he is certainly nowhere close to the worst, but the point is that he is highly valued and the sale of him alone could generate funds that would benefit the whole of the squad.

What about long term value? We could stick, and have the potential Brazilian midfield for the next 8 years. RVN came back stronger than ever after the same injury Sandro had.

These players you keep on thinking the grass is greener is not puzzling because they have been out of form, but class is permanent.

We need our Brazilians and Belgians. Belgium is ranked alongside England in the fifa rankings. And here we are with Dembele, Vert and Chadli. Mixed in with the Brazilians and you have a hell of a lot of potential.

Unfortunately we have watered down this powerhouse of a team with terrible managers doing things like dropping Ade, starting players out of position, having no left backs at the club etc etc and it's twisted some fans up to look past them and onto the next potential thing.

 

[cahspur]

What about long term value? We could stick, and have the potential Brazilian midfield for the next 8 years. RVN came back stronger than ever after the same injury Sandro had.

These players you keep on thinking the grass is greener is not puzzling because they have been out of form, but class is permanent.

We need our Brazilians and Belgians. Belgium is ranked alongside England in the fifa rankings. And here we are with Dembele, Vert, Vlad and Chadli. Mixed in with the Brazilians and you have a hell of a lot of potential.

Unfortunately we have watered down this powerhouse of a team with terrible managers doing things like dropping Ade, starting players out of position, having no left backs at the club etc etc and it's twisted some fans up to look past them and onto the next potential thing.

I agree that many of the factors have to be weighed in in assessing a player and how they're performing in any situation. All these things you point out are very true.

However, there are yet further factors as each player is an individual as has their own inherent criteria necessary for evaluation. Otherwise, it isn't fair to the players. As such, while some have struggled such as Chadli, I think they have shown instrinsic ability that would carry them through our next managerial change. But others, such as Paulinho, don't provide enough with their instrinsic abilities in my opinion to merit passing on their value's worth of income at the expense of full squad benefit. It is for this reason that I am in fact referring to long term value, and in my opinion the best way of doing so. Put simply, Paulinho is taking up a spot where I think the most crucial improvement for squad dynamics is needed going forward, and he's simply not shown enough intrinsic talent to fulfill that need and is too highly valued to merit sacrificing more time.

 

[gibbs131]

Put simply, Paulinho is taking up a spot where I think the most crucial improvement for squad dynamics is needed going forward, and he's simply not shown enough intrinsic talent to fulfill that need and is too highly valued to merit sacrificing more time.

I am REALLY big on your last point. The time aspect. IMO we would have progressed so much more if we had not sunk time into Defoe, Fryers, Townsend, Lennon, Naughton, Rose etc. While Lamela, Capoue, Ade, BAE etc rotted away. We should have gone back 3 and cut out wingplay WAAAAAAAAY earlier. We had Vert on the left, Chadli in the middle, Walker running around like an idiot, Soldado on his own, terrible crosses to nobody, Dembele in a sad withdrawn role etc etc.

We lost so much time this season with TERRIBLE formations, high lines which almost ruined the careers of solid players like Jan, Walker etc. This season is IMO the most wasteful thing I have ever witnessed. NOBODY got better an ANY aspect of their game. If anything, most players have gone backwards.

I'll never forgive AVB for doing what he did to the crowd and team. Like LLoris just said, it's difficult to see how we can do any worse next season. I can't be angry and Sherwood because as clueless as he is, at least he has got us scoring and seems to have a clue about youth.

 

[cahspur]

I am REALLY big on your last point. The time aspect. IMO we would have progressed so much more if we had not sunk time into Defoe, Fryers, Townsend, Lennon, Naughton, Rose etc. While Lamela, Capoue, Ade, BAE etc rotted away. We should have gone back 3 and cut out wingplay WAAAAAAAAY earlier. We had Vert on the left, Chadli in the middle, Walker running around like an idiot, Soldado on his own, terrible crosses to nobody, Dembele in a sad withdrawn role etc etc.

We lost so much time this season with TERRIBLE formations, high lines which almost ruined the careers of solid players like Jan, Walker etc. This season is IMO the most wasteful thing I have ever witnessed. NOBODY got better an ANY aspect of their game. If anything, most players have gone backwards.

I'll never forgive AVB for doing what he did to the crowd and team. Like LLoris just said, it's difficult to see how we can do any worse next season. I can't be angry and Sherwood because as clueless as he is, at least he has got us scoring and seems to have a clue about youth.

Haha pretty abrupt subject change there guy. I think you can agree with me that there's just no need for us to go back down the road of our disagreement on tactics, especially since we can also both agree that AVB did utilize poor tactics has lead to poor wingplay, regardless of our disagreement on how it came to happen.

But yes, I believe the time has come for us to do what we have to do to improve the first team both immediately and in the future. Staying on topic, to me the unfortunate flogging of Paulinho among a few others would be well worth both the short term and long term benefit of bringing in Clasie and Umtiti. I'd take that trade without a second's worth of hesitation at this point.

 

[gibbs131]

Haha pretty abrupt subject change there guy.

You brought up the time aspect. We signed a player for 30 million, then played a person who was previously on loan instead of him.

 

[gibbs131]

Staying on topic, to me the unfortunate flogging of Paulinho among a few others would be well worth both the short term and long term benefit of bringing in Clasie and Umtiti. I'd take that trade without a second's worth of hesitation at this point.

There are threads complaining we don't have leaders, and you want more kids? IMO if we get a left back, the last thing we need is someone green in the prem.

 

[Hegarz]

Hey guys I have a really good idea, why don't we sell all our new signings before we've gotten to see what they're really capable of and then buy another 10 with the money, that Eriksen chap can probably stay tho, looked good that time at wembly