"Yid" chanting...

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Yid chants, offensive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 7.8%
  • No

    Votes: 317 92.2%

  • Total voters
    344
I think everything would be different if we were standing up, pointing at Yossi Benayoun and shouting Yid at him in a threatening and derogatory manner. The reality of it is that we are chanting "Yiddo, Yiddo" at Jermain -fucking- Defoe. It's a word that symbolises solidarity and loyalty, that is a privilege within our club. What David Baddiel thinks is irrelevant because he probably buys into the "John Terry isn't racist cos he's mates with Ashley Cole" scapegoat. "racism" in the sense of Yid, is completely about context and tone, within the four walls of White Hart Lane it's a mark of respect, honour and togetherness. Shouting out "fucking yid"at someone from the other side of the street is not acceptable. Baddiel doesn't seem to understand the inherent duplicity involved. But that's because he's a cretin with an anti-spurs agenda. Daily Mail's the perfect outlet for him.

Couldn't agree more... it's ALL about context!
A Chelsea fan who takes his kid to the Panto this Christmas will probably encourage them to hiss for an hour-and-a-half... this is wholly acceptable, it's what the little'uns love to do... yet were he to start hissing at the next Spurs-Chelsea game he goes to, it takes a whole (and singularly unique) connotation, we ALL know what and who they're hissing at. (I hope Baddiel realises that were he to support ANY other team in the country, his words may not now be dripping with such sublime hypocrisy and irony as to almost be funny!)

The word Yid WAS taken away from its' origins and given a whole new, offensive meaning when used by venom fuelled anti-Semites, long before it was ever used inside a football stadium.

And talking of which, maybe Mr Baddiel wants to ask himself WHY Spurs fans have claimed the word as their own.
IF (as he so statistically points out) of the 250,000 Jews in England, only a small minority have ever claimed to support Spurs, or even been inside the ground, why was Yid ever even 'decided' it should be hissed at us...? We're no more 'Jewish' a club than ArseAnal, and yet they seem to have 'revelled' in calling us Yids on numerous occasions in the past.

The fact that Tottenham is now by and large one of the most ethnically diverse parts of London seems to have escaped Baddiel's attention, and yet we haven't adopted ourselves as 'N-word-Spurs' or "The Turks'n'Greeks" WE didn't decide to call ourselves Yids, that 'decision' was made for us long ago... we're just trying to make the best of a bad situation, and dilute whatever venom was aimed at us, so that it didn't sting as much... when did THAT become a crime?

The Yellow star analogy is VERY apt (albeit a little more heroic) surely it's the same mindset that has forged this to happen, and yet I don't recall Baddiel claiming the Danish Royal family should've been reprimanded for their actions!
 
"Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is use." THFC

Metropolitan Police have reassured Tottenham they will NOT face prosecution over their own supporters use of the word 'Yid' in matchday chants.
The police have clarified their stance over whether the club's supporters could be investigated for making racial slurs given the anti-Semitic nature of the word 'Yid'.
Club supporters often sing songs featuring the expression, and on Thursday the club released a statement defending their fans right to use the expression.
And the Met have advised Tottenham chants such as 'Yid Army' will not lead to prosecution on the basis that it is used with no 'deliberate intention to cause offence'.
Spurs' conversations with police come after the Society of Black Lawyers threatened to report the club to the police if they were not seen to be doing more to ensure the term is no longer used.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2229879/Tottenham-fans-told-police-Yid-Army-ok.html#ixzz2BqW3y8dx

Case closed
 
I saw a RT from a West Ham fan earlier who said:

"When West Ham win & Tottenham lose, I feel like gassing the jews...ssssssssssss"

Utterly vile cunts.

That does not even make sense. What a fucking cunt. Well I suppose he'd rather be in prison than the shithole he crawled out of. (Yes I know he'll probably not end up going to jail)
 
:levyeyes: Long-time lurker, just thought I'd give my 2p's worth:

I'm Jewish. I love Spurs, but that's unrelated to my ethnicity.

I personally never use the word Yid, but I'm not terribly bothered by Spurs supporters who do. I know very well you mean no insult to me by it. It's all about intent, of course, and I know that when you say "Yiddo" or "Yid Army" you're not making any comment about Jews, and therefore I disagree with the Society of Black Lawyers calling it anti-Semitic abuse.

The reason I could never say it myself is because I've been on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, and to me it's not yet a word that has lost its sting. Just down the road in Stamford Hill, Jews still get attacked because of who they are. Too much history, too soon, too stinging for me to just shrug it off and say we've taken it back.

Like many people have already said...You can only “take back” a derogatory term if you’re from the group being targeted by it. Yes, people used to use "Yids" as an insult against Spurs fans, but it refers first and foremost to Jews, and always has done. The vast majority of Spurs fans are not even Jewish, so it’s not as if they are reclaiming this term to take pride in their ethnicity the way someone like myself could if I was so inclined. If you're not Jewish, you have never had to be on the receiving end of its original meaning, never had to hear it being used as a way to denigrate you and your family, imply that you're cheating, swindling, devious, foreign-no-matter-how-long-you've-lived-here scum. The worst anybody ever did to you was insult your football club and perhaps what part of London you're from. Insulting your blood and bringing up a long, long history of hatred is an entirely different level of abuse.

If Jewish Spurs fans want to say Yid, that's another story. I'm of the opinion that non-Jews don't really get to decide when it's OK, the same way that a white person like myself doesn't get to decide whether it's OK for a black person to use the n-word. To me, "Yid" is pretty much unnecessary. We have lots of other words we can use to describe ourselves, none of which have ethnic connotations. It's pretty indefensible for us to use it and say it's a point of pride, and then complain if someone else uses it insultingly.

This may be a wishy-washy, semi-hypocritical position for me to take. :harryfacepalm: The Society of Black Lawyers' hearts are in the right place, but I think we should be drawing more attention to the truly bigoted and hateful things that are said at matches, like homophobic slurs, rather than a (possibly misguided) term of pride. Also, as a Jew I think we have a lot more on our plates, much more serious issues to be confronting. I can't bring myself to be terribly bothered by the use of "Yid" in this sense, it doesn't give me rage...but at the same time, I'd be happier if it wasn't around.

I'm really pleased with how this has been discussed here on TFC - a lot of good issues being brought up rather than knee-jerking on either side. I always think I'm being a killjoy when this topic comes up! As a Jewish fan, I feel obligated to weigh in with my opinion when it comes to this term. I wish I didn’t, but for as long as my people are getting stick – and worse – simply because of our background, I have to say something. I love Spurs and I want everybody to enjoy matches at White Hart Lane as much as I do (or did, because I moved far, far away two years ago). The way I see it is - Can we do better? Yes, certainly. We can and we should. Does "Yid" make anything better for anybody? No. I’m not going to jump on you if you really, really want to say "Yid," but I hold Spurs supporters to a high standard, and I think we can all live up to it. Think about it – if you respect the history of the club, and know the history of the neighbourhood, then you owe that tiny bit of respect to those of us tied to that particular part of history, those of us who have had to deal with the word “Yid” when it has been used in a not-so-casual way.
 
"fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews?"

I wonder what his thoughts are on the Channel 4 Television show called "Jewish Mum Of The Year" :baletroll:

Don't get me started...it's our My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, only with Edgware instead of Essex. :avbfacepalm:

I just don't want football to have anything to do with my ethnic group - positive, negative, or neutral.
 
I saw a RT from a West Ham fan earlier who said:

"When West Ham win & Tottenham lose, I feel like gassing the jews...ssssssssssss"

Utterly vile cunts.

Well OBVIOUSLY nothing offensive about that, as he doesn't mention the word YID once... Last time I looked, the individual words; "Jew", "gas" and "feel like" weren't deemed 'offensive' ...eh David Baddiel?

I'm SO glad that's been re-tweeted, as it proves the point perfectly, the word YID isn't the problem, as it doesn't even get a mention. But the disgusting tone set in the words he does use prove BEYOND DOUBT that it's the context in which they are written in that causes such offence.

It makes me sick to my little Jewish core that people with jobs and families (probably) who walk the streets free as a bird, STILL feel this way!

Baddiel and the SBL's skewed blame mechanism have got this SO wrong it's beyond belief...
 
:levyeyes: Long-time lurker, just thought I'd give my 2p's worth:

I'm Jewish. I love Spurs, but that's unrelated to my ethnicity.

I personally never use the word Yid, but I'm not terribly bothered by Spurs supporters who do. I know very well you mean no insult to me by it. It's all about intent, of course, and I know that when you say "Yiddo" or "Yid Army" you're not making any comment about Jews, and therefore I disagree with the Society of Black Lawyers calling it anti-Semitic abuse.

The reason I could never say it myself is because I've been on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, and to me it's not yet a word that has lost its sting. Just down the road in Stamford Hill, Jews still get attacked because of who they are. Too much history, too soon, too stinging for me to just shrug it off and say we've taken it back.

Like many people have already said...You can only “take back” a derogatory term if you’re from the group being targeted by it. Yes, people used to use "Yids" as an insult against Spurs fans, but it refers first and foremost to Jews, and always has done. The vast majority of Spurs fans are not even Jewish, so it’s not as if they are reclaiming this term to take pride in their ethnicity the way someone like myself could if I was so inclined. If you're not Jewish, you have never had to be on the receiving end of its original meaning, never had to hear it being used as a way to denigrate you and your family, imply that you're cheating, swindling, devious, foreign-no-matter-how-long-you've-lived-here scum. The worst anybody ever did to you was insult your football club and perhaps what part of London you're from. Insulting your blood and bringing up a long, long history of hatred is an entirely different level of abuse.

If Jewish Spurs fans want to say Yid, that's another story. I'm of the opinion that non-Jews don't really get to decide when it's OK, the same way that a white person like myself doesn't get to decide whether it's OK for a black person to use the n-word. To me, "Yid" is pretty much unnecessary. We have lots of other words we can use to describe ourselves, none of which have ethnic connotations. It's pretty indefensible for us to use it and say it's a point of pride, and then complain if someone else uses it insultingly.

This may be a wishy-washy, semi-hypocritical position for me to take. :harryfacepalm: The Society of Black Lawyers' hearts are in the right place, but I think we should be drawing more attention to the truly bigoted and hateful things that are said at matches, like homophobic slurs, rather than a (possibly misguided) term of pride. Also, as a Jew I think we have a lot more on our plates, much more serious issues to be confronting. I can't bring myself to be terribly bothered by the use of "Yid" in this sense, it doesn't give me rage...but at the same time, I'd be happier if it wasn't around.

I'm really pleased with how this has been discussed here on TFC - a lot of good issues being brought up rather than knee-jerking on either side. I always think I'm being a killjoy when this topic comes up! As a Jewish fan, I feel obligated to weigh in with my opinion when it comes to this term. I wish I didn’t, but for as long as my people are getting stick – and worse – simply because of our background, I have to say something. I love Spurs and I want everybody to enjoy matches at White Hart Lane as much as I do (or did, because I moved far, far away two years ago). The way I see it is - Can we do better? Yes, certainly. We can and we should. Does "Yid" make anything better for anybody? No. I’m not going to jump on you if you really, really want to say "Yid," but I hold Spurs supporters to a high standard, and I think we can all live up to it. Think about it – if you respect the history of the club, and know the history of the neighbourhood, then you owe that tiny bit of respect to those of us tied to that particular part of history, those of us who have had to deal with the word “Yid” when it has been used in a not-so-casual way.
Top post. 100% agree. I fear that the debate over this issue often seems to boil down to this question of intent and whether or not the fans are in solidarity with Jewish fans or not. In my earlier posts in this thread I was trying to touch on what you have perhaps more effectively detailed in one post.

Whenever this debate comes up inevitably the gentile users of the word will bang on about intent and having reclaimed the word as a fight against Jewish oppression, etc. The point I was trying to illustrate (some months ago now) was that for as long as the offensive element remains for a section of the Jewish community then comments like "I don't intend to be malicious", "I'm showing support for my Jewish friends", "Chelsea fans say much worse" or "my mate is Jewish and uses it/thinks it's ok" are irrelevant. You can say all those things until the cows come home, but for as long as the "yid" word is used then you are using a word that originated as a racial slur, and that still offends some of the targets of said slur today. There's no way of getting around that no matter how much one tries.

The reality is that Spurs fans spend so much time justifying their use of it that they are happy to ignore the potential to offend. I certainly understand why. It's used by about 75% of the fan base (which goes a long way to explaining why the club put out the statement it did this past week) and for them, especially fans of many years, it is almost as much of their indentity as fans as the cockerel on theit shirt is. It is therefore utterly natural to want to defend something like that, especially when you aren't setting out to upset anyone.

The reality is an uncomfortable truth, a truth which most fans just don't want to accept (hence all the typical justifications of the manner I posted above). In an ideal world I wish they could. Some might say that it is, perhaps, the ever continuing story of the grass roots Jew to be pushed to the back of the queue on matters of race and identity.

Oh, and post more often. :baletroll:
 
Ran it all by my old friend over a chilled glass.
He is the Chairperson of the Association of "under 4'11' short people" Lawyers.

In our great British legal system (envy of many democratic countries) it is now clear to the lawyers
there is no money in pursuing Spurs or Spurs supporters in the courts because, as has been said,
there is no intent, or any evidence of any intent, under UK law.

Many lawyers are highly motivated to use the legal system to make piles of money for themselves.
That is what most lawyers generally do. Money is what gets most lawyers out of bed. Allegedly.

Indeed today lawyers have announced lawyers are now organising legal paperwork to make the case that the FA is 'institutionally racist'. This legal pursuit might well be possibly more likely to make money than having a go at Spurs.

:levywtf:

Spurs can now continue to honourably, in response to both past and current vile chants from various scum, sing what we want.
YID ARMY
 
I think all the SBL have done is made a point our chant using the word 'Yid' being illegal, which is at best misguided because it's use is not intended as offensive.

However, just because some things are legal, it doesn't make them right. In other news look at Amazon & Starbucks in the news this week, they might be operating legally with their tax avoidance but...

Now I'm not trying to suddenly say that we are morally wrong but this is not a legal argument, it's one of culture. In the distant past it was estimated up to a third of the White Hart Lane faithful were jewish, anti semitism was more common. There is nothing to say that our fans did not do the right thing when we used 'Yid' as a badge of honour but as the years go by that badge becomes less relevant.

I can appreciate that it's very easy to say David Baddiel is the bad guy here and that he should be telling his own hateful Chelsea bretheren that their anti semitism is beyond abhorent. I also find it pertitinent that he chooses the word 'patronising', that does show that he understands this is not a legal matter. He still does have a right to be offended and patronised, as much as we may not like it we need to know if the chant is offending other people because if it genuinely is then perhaps 'we sing what we want' is not the best answer.

In the long term football needs to rid itself of race and religous tags, that goes way beyond just our hallowed turf in North London. But if you agree with this basic idea then you have to accept that sooner or later 'Yid' will be a thing of the past.
 
Post off SpursCommunity. No idea how valid this ITK is, obviously it's not actually Spurs ITK as such.

Been told today by someone who would know...

Apparently the CPS have deemed all Yid chants offensive. The club are considering their position and will make a statement in the coming days.

Outrageous if true.

If anyone ever expects us to stop calling ourselves Yids, and using the word in chants, they are deluded. It's just never going to happen.
 
Post off SpursCommunity. No idea how valid this ITK is, obviously it's not actually Spurs ITK as such.

Been told today by someone who would know...
Apparently the CPS have deemed all Yid chants offensive. The club are considering their position and will make a statement in the coming days.

Outrageous if true.

If anyone ever expects us to stop calling ourselves Yids, and using the word in chants, they are deluded. It's just never going to happen.

This is getting almost comical... ALL Yid chants? even if it's surrounded by swelling pride and togetherness? I GET that the word itself could cause offence (and probably where this argument begins and ends) but words CHANGE their meaning... 30 years ago a sick wicked gay man would've been someone happy with his depraved evil deeds... now he's homosexual AND cool!! It dun't make sense?

anyway, as that filthy West Ham tweet proved, it's not the content, it's the INTENT
He didn't use the word Yid at all... and yet we're now being told that what HE said is as insulting & vile as 30,000 people of MIXED ETHNICITIES & RELIGIONS standing up AS ONE, IN UNITY to declare their pride at being part of the Yid Army...? (OK, maybe not 30,000... but pretty fucking close!)
 
30 years ago a sick wicked gay man would've been someone happy with his depraved evil deeds... now he's homosexual AND cool!! It dun't make sense?
"Sick, wicked gay man"? Homosexual was never an offensive word, neither was gay, which did not originate as a slur, but rather a declaration of happiness. I'm not seeing the comparison between something that once illegal and something that is a racial slur, and remains so even today.

it's not the content, it's the INTENT
As I explained above, intent is not all there is too it. You can't walk up to a black man, call him a nigger and expect him not to be offend it if you cavaet it with "I didn't intend to offend, I just though I'd show my solidarity". Chances are he's going to be offended anyway.

30,000 people of MIXED ETHNICITIES & RELIGIONS standing up AS ONE, IN UNITY to declare their pride at being part of the Yid Army...? (OK, maybe not 30,000... but pretty fucking close!)
Save that this is factually untrue. I know fans, both Jewish and not, who do not and will not chant the Y word. I don't myself either, no matter how many other songs I join in with.
 
"Sick, wicked gay man"? Homosexual was never an offensive word, neither was gay, which did not originate as a slur, but rather a declaration of happiness. I'm not seeing the comparison between something that once illegal and something that is a racial slur, and remains so even today.

As I explained above, intent is not all there is too it. You can't walk up to a black man, call him a nigger and expect him not to be offend it if you cavaet it with "I didn't intend to offend, I just though I'd show my solidarity". Chances are he's going to be offended anyway.


Save that this is factually untrue. I know fans, both Jewish and not, who do not and will not chant the Y word. I don't myself either, no matter how many other songs I join in with.

Aw... well that's me well and truly told!

I think the vague point I was making was that words DO change their meaning over the years... but yes, i do get that many Jewish people will find Yid offensive for as long as it is in anyone's vocabulary...
Your example of someone walking up to a Black man and screaming 'Nigger' in their face has absolutely no substance... because as far as I'm aware, at NO point, has ANY Spurs fan walked up to a Jewish person and screamed YIDDO in their face... that's not why Spurs fans use the word, it's a totally different usage, and in no way comparable.

The fact I'm Jewish, and find no offence in a word that was 'derived' by some far right fascist to CAUSE offence is no concern of mine...

Personally, I refuse to let them win. But if people want to be offended by words that some far Right cunt dreamt up to be deemed offensive, then that's up to them.... frankly, I don't want to give them the satisfaction of offending me... I'd much rather ram their scummy words and sentiments down their far right disgusting throats with a vitriolic call of arms... and IF those words HAPPEN to be 'YID ARMY', then so be it... they shouldn't have come up with the ammunition with which to shoot them with in the first place!

Yid is only offensive because certain people spat it out as bile directed towards the Jewish community with the sole intention to offend ... BUT if we don't let it affect us (in whatever way we deem fit) then it has no power, and no effect on those it was aimed at... surely THAT'S the point of 're-claiming' the word Yid?

Sorry for the rant Smoked Salmon... wasn't directed at you in any way, I hear you're a perfectly decent fellow ... and a +355 rating doesn't just happen overnight!
...but this yid thing is getting out of hand. It's reasons for being go far beyond this season... it goes way back, and the sudden clamour for it to be stamped out, perfectly highlight the 'sweep it under the carpet' mentality that allowed it to be HISSED at us for so many years without a murmur... suddenly we fight back, and the SBL are all over it!

Maybe they want to search the archives to see just how many Chelsea, ArseAnal West Ham fans gassed and hissed the word YID at us for years without so much as a mention from ANY authorities... maybe 'cos it was being aimed at silly little Yiddy Spurs, it was deemed unnecessary to deal with... now suddenly we're throwing it back in their far right cunty faces, it's front-page news... FFS it makes me sick... and that takes a lot, as I've got a very high sick threshold!
 
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