Tonight has really opened my eyes to the issues we face.

[GDG]

Is Sanchez any good? What’s the verdict on his ability to have a complete game?

He’ll always have moments of brilliance and some massive brain farts. Bit like Sakho for Palace or dare I say Phil Jones.

With the level we aspire to be, I fear he’ll never be good enough. Having said that defences in particular are less about the sum of their parts. We don’t defend well as a team right now. Particularly through CM.

 

[Atomic knob]

don’t disagree on Winks, he is a scape goat a lot of the time, he isn’t a DM.

If not a DM, what is he? Serious question, not trolling.

 

[JIMINHO]

Let’s face it, we have a rotten squad. There’s a few bad eggs in our team that just aren’t giving it there all and that has permeated to the whole team. Jose’s comments are right, you can’t flick a switch and get them playing intense football when they haven’t played intense football for the better part of a year. Plus intensity or required from the whole team, not just a handful. Aurier is a lazy sod and Moura hasn’t exactly been doing a lot of running either. Winks, Sissoko and Delli are the only three players in that midfield/attack who seem to move off the ball. The rest are just reacting to the ball movement instead of anticipating it and Winks/Sissoko are not world class midfielders although I do personally like both of them.

Our back 4 needs to be reestablished next year and that means two new full backs. In modern football, most of the energy comes from those two positions. We also need a world class DM, Kante-esque. If we can only get three players this summer, it would be those three. Off-load Aurier, Rose, and Wanyama and just swap them out. Maybe get $50m for those three (maaaybe) and spend $150m on those three positions. I have a feeling we will keep Vert and Alderweireld but Eriksen is almost certainly out the door.

Overarching comment is just to get through this year. Just get top 4 so we have a platform for next year.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

All I’m saying is let’s be a bit more upbeat
Things could really be good under José as he’s a winner but I’m well aware that it could end in tears

Was a winner.

I'll call it as I see it mate.

Simply can't be upbeat following that shit we had to endure last night. If Poch gets it in the neck for that shit then so too can the worlds greatest winner of a Manager.

I've got no great expectations for this season, I should, therefore, be easily pleased. For me to feel upbeat I need to have something to hold onto, that's usually a team at a bare minimum is working hard. The next steps after that are to see encouraging passages of play. Even if we lose a game whilst displaying something I can get and understand what we were attempting to do then this is fine by me.

But if we play shit we should just call it what it is, shit. Can't see the point of dressing up a dog's dinner of a game any other way. Same as with his first three games and Poch's last this season. Just keeping it real, not getting seduced by the talk. Great that others are as the vibe has changed.

 

[Tomo]

If not a DM, what is he? Serious question, not trolling.

A number 8 like Sissoko and like Ndombele. We have a clear Gerrard/Lampard situation in the team, players who do a similar role and don’t work. Watch Winks for England in his last game in his proper role.

Dier and Wanyama for whatever reason are broke and thus we have no effective holding player. so we ask Winks and Sissoko or Ndombele to cover the 8 and 6 role between them and it doesn’t work.

If we have a £60m budget and a top DM for £60 comes up we have to spend it on that guy. The team has no balance.

while Winks hasn’t been great as a DM he has still performed better than Dier who seems to be no longer mobile. Only short term solution for me is a Winks as DM till we buy a new one in a midfield 3 of Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso and drop Lucas as the poorest performing attacking player. Alternative to Winks would be trying Foyth in the DM role, not sure Skipp is physically ready.

sell Dier and Wanyama and buy a good DM who is mobile in January. do that and the defence will be more solid and attacking players will be more confident.

it’s not nice but we can’t carry the likes of Wanyama, Dier, Lamela, Rose etc anymore.

 

[TheRealTI]

A number 8 like Sissoko and like Ndombele. We have a clear Gerrard/Lampard situation in the team, players who do a similar role and don’t work. Watch Winks for England in his last game in his proper role.

Dier and Wanyama for whatever reason are broke and thus we have no effective holding player. so we ask Winks and Sissoko or Ndombele to cover the 8 and 6 role between them and it doesn’t work.

If we have a £60m budget and a top DM for £60 comes up we have to spend it on that guy. The team has no balance.

while Winks hasn’t been great as a DM he has still performed better than Dier who seems to be no longer mobile. Only short term solution for me is a Winks as DM till we buy a new one in a midfield 3 of Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso and drop Lucas as the poorest performing attacking player. Alternative to Winks would be trying Foyth in the DM role, not sure Skipp is physically ready.

sell Dier and Wanyama and buy a good DM who is mobile in January. do that and the defence will be more solid and attacking players will be more confident.

Bingo. If you look at our midfield options, they break down this way...

DM = Wanyama, Dier
CM = Winks, Sissoko, Ndombele
AM = Lamela, Lo Celso, Dele, Eriksen

Obviously some of those players are more forwards than midfielders (such as Dele and Lamela), and I struggled to classify Lo Celso as AM or CM (since we haven't seen a lot of him).

But basically, our DM options are not good and we have three guys who can play CM. Ndombele is clearly the best, and then probably Winks. Those three are battling for one spot in our current setup.

 

[Tomo]

Was a winner.

I'll call it as I see it mate.

Simply can't be upbeat following that shit we had to endure last night. If Poch gets it in the neck for that shit then so too can the worlds greatest winner of a Manager.

I've got no great expectations for this season, I should, therefore, be easily pleased. For me to feel upbeat I need to have something to hold onto, that's usually a team at a bare minimum is working hard. The next steps after that are to see encouraging passages of play. Even if we lose a game whilst displaying something I can get and understand what we were attempting to do then this is fine by me.

But if we play shit we should just call it what it is, shit. Can't see the point of dressing up a dog's dinner of a game any other way. Same as with his first three games and Poch's last this season. Just keeping it real, not getting seduced by the talk. Great that others are as the vibe has changed.

fair enough but what if Mourinho can’t get this team going, then we get another manager and he can’t either. It may simply come down to the fact we need a proper clean out and rebuild and that falls on the board. Wait and see I guess.

 

[Tomo]

Bingo. If you look at our midfield options, they break down this way...

DM = Wanyama, Dier
CM = Winks, Sissoko, Ndombele
AM = Lamela, Lo Celso, Dele, Eriksen

Obviously some of those players are more forwards than midfielders (such as Dele and Lamela), and I struggled to classify Lo Celso as AM or CM (since we haven't seen a lot of him).

But basically, our DM options are not good and we have three guys who can play CM. Ndombele is clearly the best, and then probably Winks. Those three are battling for one spot in our current setup.

yep it’s why a 3 midfield might be the only short term option, just overload, we looks stretched with just 2 CM’s. What I would give for prime Scott Parker in this team.

 

[Pól]

No but I really didn't believe they were as bad as we witnessed tonight.

That United team are utterly shocking and we essentially were dominated for large parts of the game.

they might not be a great side but there’s no denying they played brilliant. Even Fred had a blinder. Then united players where out to prove a point last night and they achieved that. Spurs where awful though I agree

 

[MVP]

A number 8 like Sissoko and like Ndombele. We have a clear Gerrard/Lampard situation in the team, players who do a similar role and don’t work. Watch Winks for England in his last game in his proper role.

Dier and Wanyama for whatever reason are broke and thus we have no effective holding player. so we ask Winks and Sissoko or Ndombele to cover the 8 and 6 role between them and it doesn’t work.

If we have a £60m budget and a top DM for £60 comes up we have to spend it on that guy. The team has no balance.

while Winks hasn’t been great as a DM he has still performed better than Dier who seems to be no longer mobile. Only short term solution for me is a Winks as DM till we buy a new one in a midfield 3 of Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso and drop Lucas as the poorest performing attacking player. Alternative to Winks would be trying Foyth in the DM role, not sure Skipp is physically ready.

sell Dier and Wanyama and buy a good DM who is mobile in January. do that and the defence will be more solid and attacking players will be more confident.

it’s not nice but we can’t carry the likes of Wanyama, Dier, Lamela, Rose etc anymore.

Then we have no money to spend elsewhere, we have to revert to the old model and try to do some good scouting.

 

[Tomo]

Then we have no money to spend elsewhere, we have to revert to the old model and try to do some good scouting.

for me DM is such an issue it would be worth it, the team balance looks screwed without it. As for scouting we seem shit at that.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

You know what's really irritating me, I'm not on the 9-12m a year of our two recent coaches but even Stevie wonder can see you cant play Winks as an orthodox CDM. However ours are broken Deir /Wanyama, the position allows the creative CAM (N'dombele) to play with freedom knowing he is covered, its about winning the ball shifting it accurately to your partner quickly and covering ground. Bit of pace physicality and timing of tackle is required, I think we should buy a specialist but in the mean time TRY Japhet Tanganga. Strong quick can tackle decent pace. Try it in a full side practice game, what do they do all week at the worlds best training ground? Him or even Foyth may offer the mobility and bite Dier Wanyama no longer can. DO SOMETHING!!

 

[MVP]

for me DM is such an issue it would be worth it, the team balance looks screwed without it. As for scouting we seem shit at that.

We need to improve that area fast then, Jose already said that we won't be going for that type of finished player. I don't think it was a ploy.

 

[scott]

That won't last forever, Mourinho is the last chance saloon, if he fails Kane is gone.

True. Although we might get lucky & he wants to stay in England. He wouldn't go to another London team & I don't think Liverpool would go for him. So only really leaves the 2 Manchester team's. United are in a mess too. Not sure he is a pep type player. But we shall see. A lot could change by then.

 

[MVP]

True. Although we might get lucky & he wants to stay in England. He wouldn't go to another London team & I don't think Liverpool would go for him. So only really leaves the 2 Manchester team's. United are in a mess too. Not sure he is a pep type player. But we shall see. A lot could change by then.

Yeah good point, possibly go to Madrid. Worse case scenario is him running the clock down.

 

[GDG]

You know what's really irritating me, I'm not on the 9-12m a year of our two recent coaches but even Stevie wonder can see you cant play Winks as an orthodox CDM. However ours are broken Deir /Wanyama, the position allows the creative CAM (N'dombele) to play with freedom knowing he is covered, its about winning the ball shifting it accurately to your partner quickly and covering ground. Bit of pace physicality and timing of tackle is required, I think we should buy a specialist but in the mean time TRY Japhet Tanganga. Strong quick can tackle decent pace. Try it in a full side practice game, what do they do all week at the worlds best training ground? Him or even Foyth may offer the mobility and bite Dier Wanyama no longer can. DO SOMETHING!!

Rather see Foyth or Skipp given a go there. Nothing about Tanganga screams DCM to me from the little I’ve seen of him.

 

[GDG]

for me DM is such an issue it would be worth it, the team balance looks screwed without it. As for scouting we seem shit at that.

Definitely. It’s our biggest issue and is impacting the balance of the whole side.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

fair enough but what if Mourinho can’t get this team going, then we get another manager and he can’t either. It may simply come down to the fact we need a proper clean out and rebuild and that falls on the board. Wait and see I guess.

The premise of not sticking with Poch is because it's easier to replace the Manager than the players.

My argument with sticking with Poch was that whoever came in would want to replace the players as well, so what's the point?

The thing is Mourinho has been hired to get this team going. Both the outward and then incoming announcements of the Managers reflected this within the statements from the Club. Then Jose has consistently followed up his first press conference with "he thinks this team is great". "The players are great" and that he "doesn't need to buy"!

 

[Park Lane Mark Twain]

Tonight was a real fucking eye opener. We need half a new team at least. Impossible to buy and integrate a new defence but it needs it. Midfield is a mess. Not sure how long Winks can be persevered with. I personally think he's dogshit. The front 3/4 were piss poor. Can anyone in this squad string 2 decent performances together. Is it that much to ask?

We need 3-4 players long term, the same as most teams when you look at a collective aspiration across the league to develop and imporove.

At the moment the biggest requirements are all defensive. Lloris is fine for the time being, Sanchez will be fine if we can get him a top partner, Aurier has room to grow but he's on limited time to prove that.

Personally if I had one signing to make I would bring in a DM above all else. Let's get Lo Celso ties down to his bargain £27.5m fee in January and let's go all out for Zakaria to add a bit of muscle in there.

We get through to the end of the season with Aurier, Foyth & KWP as right back options, Davies, Rose & Vertonghen as RB options and Sanchez, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Foyth and Dier as our CB options and we review things then.

It's a huge shame Dier and Wanyama seem to have faded drastically. Over the Xmas period I say we give Winks & Ndombele time to find its feet but if I could make one signing in Jan I'd probably go for Denis Zakaria as I honestly think it would settle things down in that department a lot. The other positions, realistically we'd have to wait on I think.

 

[COckneY Spurs]

For months now I have been saying that Pochettino was the reason behind our terrible form, poor tactics, losing the players, training burning them out etc.

Then tonight rolled around...new manager and yet again, we start the game and I am thinking "what the fuck are we doing tactically here? We are all over the place!"

Honestly, you could have told me Poch was still in charge and I would have believed you.

United are utterly diabolical and yet we made them look like City or Liverpool at times, surely two managers in a row can't be making the exact same mistakes can they?

Well the answer is, no, I don't think they are.

I think the players are making the same mistakes and by mistakes I mean, being lazy and not showing the right attitude and some of them in that dressing room need a rocket firing up them quite frankly because it's fucking me off.

I don't know if they have just all lost confidence or if they think they don't need to apply themselves anymore or what, I really don't know what the issue is at this point, are our players just seriously overrated because of what our previous manager achieved with them? Because watching that game tonight has pissed me off like no other before, we fucking stank the place out, other than one piece of utter magic from Dele that was, frankly, rancid.

I think looking at Dele after the final whistle he genuinely looked torn up and I think it's because he feels guilty about what happened to Poch and more importantly he knows the attitude wasn't right from some of our players and maybe that is the crux of the issue here.

Mourinho was honest as well, he gave them clear instructions and they failed to follow them, I don't know what it's going to take for this group of players to understand that you can't just turn up to games and expect to win with a half arsed performance, doesn't matter how shit the other team are on paper, if you're attitude isn't right then you will not win.

I keep hearing "the humble one" thrown around, right now we need the old Jose, we need some fire in that dressing room to seperate the cowards from the ones who really want to stay here and fight to make this club one of the greats in world football.

Otherwise, well, we have a very long road ahead of us and one that maybe even Jose can't fix without spending to remove the ones that lack the spine for the job.

Am I kneejerking here? Genuine question? Or is this deeper than just a manager being the issue?

It’s a horrible mess, created by lots of smaller problems over the last two years all coming together at once wrapped in a nice little bow.

Without opening old wounds the summer of no transfers is where it started, I do however believe there was defiantly restrictions on the amount of money we had and a manager who wanted top players as opposed to a few cheaper average players, Levy and Poch met in the middle somewhere on this, stay calm and I’ll back you next summer, which he did, but too little too late perhaps? Certainly for Poch anyway.
All this of course forced us to keep what we had and as a result players contracts started to run out and average players never stepped up (when you think about it Harry Kane is the last time we produced a quality player from with in our academy, 6 years ago now?)
So all and all, Levy gets a pass over the last few years as off the field Priority's where understandable, but it’s time to redirect that focus back to the team and with Jose at the helm there is really no excuse, the guy has won silverware everywhere he has ever managed, even at a piss poor Man Utd, but to take the next step to the next level Levy must, and I mean must back his manager and trust his manager 100%.....
Jose knows what he’s doing, so it’s time to show us you do too Daniel.