Summer 2013 Transfer Window DISCUSSION Thread

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josh_spurs said:
I think we'll still play 4231

Bale CF. has to be
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I disagree that Bale has to be in the middle. I still think he's best on the wing where he can run at people. Thats where he is most effective and, when starting on the right, he can easily drift in as there's no CAM to take up that space. Thats the thing I love about a 4-3-3 and why I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1. In a 4-3-3, players are able to move inside without wasting space. For example, Paulinho or Dembele can burst forward to have 3 options in front of him in the ST, LW, and RW, while still having 2 options behind him in the CM and the CDM. Or Bale, on the RW, can cut inside to overload the left side, effectively playing as a CF, or Dembele can cover for him on the right and it turns into a 4-2-3-1 with Paulinho and Sandro holding, Dembele on the right, and Bale in the middle.

A 4-2-3-1 can't be as fluid. Bale starts in the middle and could move right or left, but that leaves Lennon on the left or in the middle and I think we all can agree that he isn't very effective from these positions. It also puts a lot more defensive responsibility on Sandro and Dembele. Dembele can't surge forward as often becuase Bale wont pick up his responsibility of holding. A 4-3-3 allows Bale to move where he wants, while still allowing Dembele and Paulinho to get forward without having to worry about their defensive duties.
 
Tyler Wieland said:
I disagree that Bale has to be in the middle. I still think he's best on the wing where he can run at people. Thats where he is most effective and, when starting on the right, he can easily drift in as there's no CAM to take up that space. Thats the thing I love about a 4-3-3 and why I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1. In a 4-3-3, players are able to move inside without wasting space. For example, Paulinho or Dembele can burst forward to have 3 options in front of him in the ST, LW, and RW, while still having 2 options behind him in the CM and the CDM. Or Bale, on the RW, can cut inside to overload the left side, effectively playing as a CF, or Dembele can cover for him on the right and it turns into a 4-2-3-1 with Paulinho and Sandro holding, Dembele on the right, and Bale in the middle.

A 4-2-3-1 can't be as fluid. Bale starts in the middle and could move right or left, but that leaves Lennon on the left or in the middle and I think we all can agree that he isn't very effective from these positions. It also puts a lot more defensive responsibility on Sandro and Dembele. Dembele can't surge forward as often becuase Bale wont pick up his responsibility of holding. A 4-3-3 allows Bale to move where he wants, while still allowing Dembele and Paulinho to get forward without having to worry about their defensive duties.
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Bale can still run at people from a central role, see Norwich away, United away.

A 4-2-3-1 can be as "fluid" as a 4-3-3 it just depends on personnel. A 4-2-3-1 with Sandro and Dembele as the two and Bale Holtby Lennon as the three can just as easily be a 4-3-3 with Holtby Sandro Dembele and Lennon Striker Bale. Or a 4-4-1-1 with Lennon Sandro Dembele Bale and Holtby in behind.

I think your point would be more valid if you said that none of these properly utilise Bale rather than saying they are lea fluid.
 
Tyler Wieland said:
I disagree that Bale has to be in the middle. I still think he's best on the wing where he can run at people. Thats where he is most effective and, when starting on the right, he can easily drift in as there's no CAM to take up that space. Thats the thing I love about a 4-3-3 and why I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1. In a 4-3-3, players are able to move inside without wasting space. For example, Paulinho or Dembele can burst forward to have 3 options in front of him in the ST, LW, and RW, while still having 2 options behind him in the CM and the CDM. Or Bale, on the RW, can cut inside to overload the left side, effectively playing as a CF, or Dembele can cover for him on the right and it turns into a 4-2-3-1 with Paulinho and Sandro holding, Dembele on the right, and Bale in the middle.

A 4-2-3-1 can't be as fluid. Bale starts in the middle and could move right or left, but that leaves Lennon on the left or in the middle and I think we all can agree that he isn't very effective from these positions. It also puts a lot more defensive responsibility on Sandro and Dembele. Dembele can't surge forward as often becuase Bale wont pick up his responsibility of holding. A 4-3-3 allows Bale to move where he wants, while still allowing Dembele and Paulinho to get forward without having to worry about their defensive duties.
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Mostly true, but I think in the run of play most 4-3-3/4-5-1 formations are little different from 4-2-3-1. I think it's much more of a matter of subtlety than you're making on, and most 4-3-3 systems convert to a 4-2-3-1 in attack.

The difference is only going to be seen in teams with players that are very, very heavily drilled in their roles, and I don't think that AVB has had that time quite yet. Quite a lot of our players are tactically naive; they just rely on their pace and power to beat players, and they don't really mix it up.

We need quite a bit more coaching with our wingers, including Bale. They're cutting in too quickly.

I'd prefer a 4-3-3/4-5-1, but it really requires a top notch squad with great depth and a powerful and consistent CF. We're very, very, very, very close. With Paulinho I think all that's left is one or two strikers that can do a job consistently and maybe light a fire under Adebayor's Togolese ass.
 
My general opinion on watching Paulinho for all of 5 matches....think we're all in the same boat basically. None of us are Tim Vickery, none of us have an in depth knowledge of the Brazilian league outside of FIFA. All I have is a couple of YouTube complications, a few Brazil matches in which he's been quietly creative, almost efficency defined as a 'complete' midfielder. And most of all a new found trust in our scouting and player recruitment system, Harry would of been in our position (see Sandro) AVB and Baldini know their shit, and Levy isn't going to allegedly break our transfer record willy nilly. Wether he's as part of a three or as cover, despite the fact we have a vast array of talented midfielders in our squad we never looked the same without the Sandro Dembele pairing, if Paulinho can replicate that sort of form with either of those he could be the most important signing of this summer for us.
 
Pairsy1882 said:
Bale can still run at people from a central role, see Norwich away, United away.

A 4-2-3-1 can be as "fluid" as a 4-3-3 it just depends on personnel. A 4-2-3-1 with Sandro and Dembele as the two and Bale Holtby Lennon as the three can just as easily be a 4-3-3 with Holtby Sandro Dembele and Lennon Striker Bale. Or a 4-4-1-1 with Lennon Sandro Dembele Bale and Holtby in behind.

I think your point would be more valid if you said that none of these properly utilise Bale rather than saying they are lea fluid.
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I honestly think Bale's effectiveness is irrelevant in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 debate. I think he'll be just as effective whether you put him on the right in a 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, or in the middle of a 4-2-3-1. When I think about a formation, I think about the team as a whole.

While a 4-2-3-1 could be as fluid, I don't think it will end up as effective with player like Lennon in there. He's just not effective when he's not on the right side. It also prevents Dembele from going forward as much because nobody will pick up his defensive duties. I think Dembele needs to be given more freedom to go forward because of his dribbling skills. Also, we're not spending 17 million on Paulinho to put him on the bench...
 
VirginiaSpur said:
Mostly true, but I think in the run of play most 4-3-3/4-5-1 formations are little different from 4-2-3-1. I think it's much more of a matter of subtlety than you're making on, and most 4-3-3 systems convert to a 4-2-3-1 in attack.

The difference is only going to be seen in teams with players that are very, very heavily drilled in their roles, and I don't think that AVB has had that time quite yet. Quite a lot of our players are tactically naive; they just rely on their pace and power to beat players, and they don't really mix it up.

We need quite a bit more coaching with our wingers, including Bale. They're cutting in too quickly.

I'd prefer a 4-3-3/4-5-1, but it really requires a top notch squad with great depth and a powerful and consistent CF. We're very, very, very, very close. With Paulinho I think all that's left is one or two strikers that can do a job consistently and maybe light a fire under Adebayor's Togolese ass.
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I do agree, I just think that a 4-3-3 give more options for players in attack. I'm just a huge fan of that formation though so I'm probably biased. On the tactics part, I think that with a whole preseason for AVB to work with the team, that will improve a ton. A lot of players were saying that AVB was much more tactic oriented and I think we'll see a more drilled team now that AVB has had a year with the team and seems to be getting more of his type of players in. You're right that it definitely needs work though.
 
I never said that we'd be putting Paulinho on the bench. Part of what's holding this club back is that we've got this pipe-dream of having an iron-clad starting 11 for every match of the season, and everyone that isn't part of that setup "sits on the bench." I think the concept of rotation is poorly understood; people seem to think a player being in rotation is a synonym for being a backup bench-warmer, and it couldn't be further from the truth.

All season long I listened to people repeat one particular talking point that I thought was complete and utter bullshit, and that's that "AVB doesn't put out the best starting 11, he puts out the best starting 11 to suit the opposition." Nonsense. I can think of 8 positions that were nailed on starters this past season when our first option was fit, and the other 3 up for grabs weren't due to tactical reasons, they were down to AVB searching for a player to make the position his own.

Lloris, nailed on starter (start of the season isn't really worth discussing). Walker: nailed on starter. Dawson: nailed on starter (cue Kaboul), Vertonghen: nailed on starter, LB: up for grabs due to BAE's injury and form issues.

Sandro: nailed on starter, Dembele: nailed on starter, Bale: nailed on starter, Lennon: nailed on starter when fit this season, attacking mid: up for grabs due to disappointing start for Sig and Demps

Striker: Both Ade and Defoe were largely poor, up for grabs

We're over-reliant on particular players, and then when they break down from exhaustion or injury, we're fucked. We saw that with Dembele in the first half of the season, and we saw that with Sandro at the end of the season.

Squad depth is a good thing, and being in rotation doesn't mean that a certain player is relegated to the bench. If Spurs want to take that leap to the next level, there has to be a change of attitude with regards to this problem.

I got a lot of flak just a couple of weeks ago for stating that RB should be another position we should look for cover in. Walker made 48 appearances for us in 2012, and 47 appearances for us last season. That number is absolutely insane! People were convinced that Naughton and Adam Smith could pick up the slack, but I'll repeat my concern that if Naughton were such a capable backup then we wouldn't have needed Walker to make 47 appearances last season, and we shouldn't be expecting a kid that has never made an appearance with our first team to be able to step in and perform at an adequate level.

We'll have a lot of fixtures this season, and I don't know about you, but I want a cup. With midweek fixtures running rampant, it's a great opportunity for a little rotation in key areas to maintain fitness throughout the squad, and the team as a whole will be much, much better off if we've got Paulinho and Dembele trading out in the midfield to carry the load in that crucial position, as opposed to being reliant on one crucial player in each position to play the entire season in every fixture, as we've been more reliant on than probably many people here would be willing to admit.
 
At 300 pages we-
th

Or Dine in Hell

(or your local MacDonalds)
 
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