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MemphisWill said:
The arrangement that's been reported, however, isn't really unusual (at least in my experience when I was still working for a GC/CM. The GC/CM often is forced to take on sub-contractors that they haven't directly chosen and whose draw might not be taken directly from the GC/CM. Two instances that immediately jump to my mind are working for Target, who had preferred subcontractors they mandated and therefore weren't entirely beholden to the GC/CM and when I worked on the basketball arena in Memphis which was funded largely by federal and state money which mandated X% of contracts be locally owned and minority owned businesses which meant basically being told you had to use this HVAC contractor or that Electrician because they were the only ones that ticked the right boxes.

Less than ideal, but it's still the CM's job to effectively coordinate and supervise the job. The story of electrical works being ripped out twice in a fortnight over the same uninstalled HVAC is ridiculous. The electrical contractor should've verified the first time that necessary work had been completed prior to their install, and for goddamn sure the 2nd time.

But it does seem like Tottenham are a nightmare client. If they've really hired their own PM's and taken a heavy-handed role in managing the project in the day-to-day then they've well and truly fucked themselves (and us). You don't tell your surgeon where to cut. AEC is no different, and despite the great disrespect for the industry and the professions involved, the average Joe knows fuck all about how to design and deliver a project of any substance.

I don't know. The article paints a picture of a master clusterfuck - a client who thinks they're a builder, a CM that seems to have let the project get away from them, and subcontractors that can't even marshal themselves. But, it's all taken from an anonymous source which could be fucking anyone with all sorts of motivations to spout off.
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On a construction project with a tight timescale its no surprise to me that there will be some mistakes made - from what I see of the construction industry management at most levels isn't as good as many other industries - so one a tight timetable is bound to be more stressful and encourage mistakes if only because scheduling the various sub contractors will be a nightmare. And it will be common for 2 sub contractors trying to work on adjacent or even same areas at the same time due to time constraints, generally considered a recipe for disasters.

But on a prestige project like this its in both Mace and Spurs interests to make this a successful project - If Mace pull this off its a great coup, if its a disaster it will not be good for Mace reputation, so I think Mace will try to manage the project professionally. And ditto the sub contractors - when bidding for further work 'you are only as good as your last contract'.

Assuming NWHL is ready for its first game before Christmas, I think everyone will regard this as a good job by Mace - or at least not a negative. Reason is that the assumption from very early that Spurs would do a deal to get a few away games meaning the first home game would be in September. So a pre-Christmas first game would mean a 2 - 3 month overrun which is not unusual in major construction projects, and therefore Mace will regard it as a decent result (as will its future customers).
 
Park Lane Mark Twain said:
Anyone else think the club should have tried adding white seats to make the badge and club name we are seeing on this image? Tricky to do but if you can pull it off I think it would have looked fantastic
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Not for me, I think it looks classy as it is.
I’m not a fan of the modern badge either (well at least the way the text curves around the ball) so maybe that’s why
 
snowkarl said:
It's ridiculous.

It effectively removes all power from their hands and makes them redundant. If they can't put pressure on a sub contractor due to not even being in charge of the contracts, how can they effectively do anything?
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Spursidol said:
But Mace's power comes from being able to tell the sub contractor that they are appointed by Spurs to oversee/manage the project so if the sub contractor is failing to carry out the contract then Spurs will penalise them to the extent that the contract allows.

The sub contractor also knows, given Mace are a big company, that they may be placing in jeopardy future work where Mace are involved - which the subby would know is not a good idea
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Surely we're just adopting the European management system into our building work as WELL as on the pitch...
And it's not the only time this season that our SUBS have been questioned!!
Geddit? :pocheyes:
 
MemphisWill said:
Two instances that immediately jump to my mind are working for Target, who had preferred subcontractors they mandated and therefore weren't entirely beholden to the GC/CM and
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Target Building out of PA?

We're just wrapping on a job with them. It was horribly mismanaged imo by Target. End result is fabulous, but at like every single stage they did specifically what we told them exactly not to do.

Thankfully we were protected from them because we don't work on a subcontractor basis, not that they didn't try to force one. A lot of big firms make a lot of money by screwing their subs, which is a relationship that we don't want to be a part of.
 
Jerry said:
It looks like a beefed up WHL. I’ve been very impressed by how they’ve retained the feel of the Lane. With the huge single tier stand and the proximity to the pitch, I think the club have absolutely nailed the stadium.

As rubbish as ENIC have been when it comes to helping us actually win things, their real legacy will be the training ground and stadium. Nobody can say they haven’t delivered on that front.
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Begs the question when it’s all done (stadium, training ground, lodge, hotel etc) where do we go. I assume at that point we become a sellable asset and then it’s the luck of the gods whether we get a good owner or a terrible one.
 
Tomo said:
Begs the question when it’s all done (stadium, training ground, lodge, hotel etc) where do we go. I assume at that point we become a sellable asset and then it’s the luck of the gods whether we get a good owner or a terrible one.
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Its often been speculated that ENIC will sell up for a tidy profit once the stadium etc.. is finished and we are established as a top 4, European "elite" club.

Bought for £22m. Sell for £1bn+ 20 years later.

But as long as we a turning a decent profit year after year why would they?

NFL franchise / internationals / concerts bringing in steady stadium revenue. Training lodge hosting European and International teams playing in London for a tidy sum. Global presence raised considerably, sponsorships and naming rights bringing in $$$. Once the ground is fully paid off, they have built a more than sustainable and highly profitable model. Why let some one else reap the benefits for a quick pay day?

Before the "oh we won the good buisness running trophy did we?" posts fly in...... its better the devil you know.

Who comes after ENIC is any ones guess. But you can guarantee... if someone is prepared to drop those kind of shekels buying us then they will be doing it with some kind of agenda in mind.
 
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Tomo said:
Begs the question when it’s all done (stadium, training ground, lodge, hotel etc) where do we go. I assume at that point we become a sellable asset and then it’s the luck of the gods whether we get a good owner or a terrible one.
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Over the last decade owning a football club, especially a top tier club, has been a licence to print money ... the Glaziers have pulled an estimated 1 billion out of Utd mostly to pay off the loans they took to buy Utd in the first place ...

It's almost impossible to make that kind of money anywhere else, and at a top tier club it's not even that risky. ENIC will have invested a fraction of our current value into the club ... possibly just 22m ... for that they are going to see an income of 300m possibly rising to 500m in the next couple of years ...

Why would they sell? they won't be able to invest that money anywhere else and get such great returns, Joe Lewis doesn't need the cash ... maybe they've had enough and want out, but I don't see any signs of that .....
 
Tomo said:
Begs the question when it’s all done (stadium, training ground, lodge, hotel etc) where do we go. I assume at that point we become a sellable asset and then it’s the luck of the gods whether we get a good owner or a terrible one.
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I think that sponsorship money and revenues for other uses for the stadium will continue to grow at a faster rate for the next 3 - 5 years after the stadium is completed as right now we will mot have exploited those markets fully, so not sure its the best time to sell Spurs - unless of course they get a humungous offer which anticipates that and more.

But that's also been true for probably for the last 10 years or so.
 
VirginiaSpur said:
Target Building out of PA?

We're just wrapping on a job with them. It was horribly mismanaged imo by Target. End result is fabulous, but at like every single stage they did specifically what we told them exactly not to do.

Thankfully we were protected from them because we don't work on a subcontractor basis, not that they didn't try to force one. A lot of big firms make a lot of money by screwing their subs, which is a relationship that we don't want to be a part of.
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No. Target, aka the missus' favorite shop. She's intent on returning all the money I made from them over the 4 years I spent travelling I-40 building those godforsaken boxes.
 
VirginiaSpur said:
Also, if he's still there the chief architect for Lowe's stores is an asshole.
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I can believe that. Also, I have to wonder what the chief architect for Lowes (or any big box) actually does. Does he come into work once every 10 years? I knew some engineers that worked directly for Target and always wondered (still do) what their day-to-day was actually like. At least structurally it made sense as design parameters actually change with location. Mechanically I could see HVAC parameters changing potentially with location. But electric is electric and the box hasn't changed from the last one.

It wore me out, the monotony. Probably what started me down the road to engineering, honestly. Fucking Target.
 
MemphisWill said:
But it does seem like Tottenham are a nightmare client. If they've really hired their own PM's and taken a heavy-handed role in managing the project in the day-to-day then they've well and truly fucked themselves (and us). You don't tell your surgeon where to cut.
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And who does that sound like? :levyeyes:

It's not just that these stories are coming out, it's that they don't so much ring true as roar true at a jet engine decibel level.
 
FightingIllini said:
And who does that sound like? :levyeyes:

It's not just that these stories are coming out, it's that they don't so much ring true as roar true at a jet engine decibel level.
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I wouldn't say it sounds like Levy, honestly. Nothing has given me the impression he micro-manages Spurs. He's managed the finances and transfers because the plan was never to just write a football manager a blank cheque - it's a very risky part of the industry that could damage the financial long term planning of the club. But there's never really been any reports that he pressures his manager on who should play, how they should play, or how to train.

Maybe my habitual lack of understanding at the grief given to ENIC and Levy is down to the fact that outside of England it's absolutely the most common ownership/management structure in sports. Britain is pretty much the only place where the cult of the manager exists, and where chairmen who don't simply hand over piles of cash to an ex-footballer (usually), who probably quit school around 13 or 14, are considered micro-managers interfering with the manager's job. Its fucking mad, because maybe it works occasionally when you have a Billy Nick (completely different world then) or a Fergie. But in the main football managers are fucking gash at player acquisition.
 
MemphisWill said:
I can believe that. Also, I have to wonder what the chief architect for Lowes (or any big box) actually does. Does he come into work once every 10 years? I knew some engineers that worked directly for Target and always wondered (still do) what their day-to-day was actually like. At least structurally it made sense as design parameters actually change with location. Mechanically I could see HVAC parameters changing potentially with location. But electric is electric and the box hasn't changed from the last one.

It wore me out, the monotony. Probably what started me down the road to engineering, honestly. Fucking Target.
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Well in Lowe's case their architect was/is a dorky redneck with a chip on his shoulder that got an architecture degree and a cushy job, and just used it as a position of power to give people a hard time.
 
MemphisWill said:
Nothing has given me the impression he micro-manages Spurs.
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At least in terms of the stadium he is very much micro-managing every last detail. At the start of the season, Darren Rockman, an Associate Director on the Spurs board, was on The Spurs Show poscast, bigging up DL for just this. He told the story of how, after the TVs had been installed on the concurses, Daniel ordered them all ripped out and replaced with ones that were slightly bigger. At the time, this was put forward of an example of how much he cares, I doubt very much if Rockman or one of his colleagues were on the podcast this week they would be so keen to highlight this aspect
 
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Bill Madrid said:
At least in terms of the stadium he is very much micro-managing every last detail. At the start of the season, Darren Rockman, an Associate Director on the Spurs board, was on The Spurs Show poscast, bigging up DL for just this. He told the story of how, after the TVs had been installed on the concurses, Daniel ordered them all ripped out and replaced with ones that were slightly bigger. At the time, this was put forward of an example of how much he cares, I doubt very much if Rockman or one of his colleagues were on the podcast this week they would be so keen to highlight this aspect
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Well I think that's where some misconception may come from. Does deciding to rip out and replace teles on a walk through make Levy a nightmare client? Sure - creates needless superficial work, but he's spending his own money and it doesn't really make a difference. That's well within a client's purview. I wouldn't consider that micro-managing a project, just being the typical dickhead client that initiates a finishes change and tells all his mates he's running a major construction project.

Micro-managing, to me, would be hiring your own PMs, and taking a heavy hand in directing the workflow, inspection, and approval of major works within the stadium instead of ceding that work to the experts in that industry. 95% of what you see after a project is completed is absolute bullshit - just window curtains.
 
Lloris moonlighting?
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