TAA & James both pulled out.... Trippier long term injury.... Walker not in OG squad(*)....
(*Just cos Pep is being a dick to him; I don't see why Gary shouldn't still pick him.)
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TAA & James both pulled out.... Trippier long term injury.... Walker not in OG squad(*)....
(*Just cos Pep is being a dick to him; I don't see why Gary shouldn't still pick him.)
Ah OK that makes more sense then.
No offense to KWP, he's a fine player, but he hardly screams "England international" quality to me.
It's literally impossible to say.
1. It could have aided his development
or
2. He developed once he left and joined Southampton
Both Onomah & Edwards haven't developed since leaving Spurs, so is this because they weren't loaned out when they were here or is it because they wouldn't have kicked on even if they were loaned.
He did play several times under Pochettino. He was on the bench in a champion's league final . Tripper was 1st choice in that position at the time . Pochettino give him a new 5 year contract in December 2018 . His time at Tottenham under Pochettino has contributed massively in developing him into the player he has become . Jose loaned him out and then sold him .
Kyle Walker-Peters Claims He Would Still Be at Tottenham if Mauricio Pochettino Wasn't Sacked
Tottenham defender Kyle Walker-Peters, who is currently on loan at Southampton, has claimed that he would still be in north London if Mauricio Pochettino was s
www.90min.com
KWP had the chance to prove himself under 3 head-coaches: Pochettino, Mason and Mourinho - and none of them thought him good enough for Spurs. I remember most, if not all, fans thought he wasn't good enough either.It's easy to say it because everyone knows that's how you get the best out of players, they need to constantly play to make mistakes and improve and gain confidence. Why do you think Skipp is the level he is at now? Because his Norwich loan turned him into the player that he is, that wouldn't have happened if he was playing once a month or playing academy football.
The nurturing at Spurs got him a move to Southampton, the nurturing by Hussenhattl got him his England cap.
The success story here is that he should have got his England cap WITH US not with Southampton.
If Poch put so much faith in him why was he so hell bent in using Foyth who was a natural CB as a RB?
It was low, you could see his body language when he played (check out the Man City match where we drew 2-2) looked massively out of sorts when he had in fact played better before, he played in the Nou Camp in the 1-1 for example and despite his error for their goal had a really good game.
In regards to Jose yes he could have used him more but Jose has never been that kind of coach unlike Poch however at that point I think the club expected him to leave because as I said his confidence was low and wasn't playing that much under Poch and still had 2 rb',s in front of him.
Well if you want to compare the two coaches Poch takes the vast majority of blame and Jose takes a small share
To me it looked as if he didn't have the necessary confidence at that time
So yes, right now I would take him over any of the present RWB but credit to Soton for developing him into and England international.
Understood, some loans don't go according to plan sometimes however KWP wasn't even given a chance to go on loan, we didn't even bother to look at that option for him...so what was the plan? Keep him at the club for what reason? If you're not going to send him on loan then you give him a chance and when I mean a chance not the odd 90 mins, young players need to get a run of games to iron out their weaknesses and work on their strenghts, KWP never got that...so pray tell me how is that even developing players, what do you actually gain from keeping them around if they're not going to play?
Well it's kinda not irrelevant to the discussion because we're talking about his progression as a player, he earned his England cap on the back of his displays for Southampton as he's improved to the level that he is now due to the current coaching and nurturing he is getting.
lol Oh Lord...If you don't think he isn't a better player then he is today then you either don't watch him properly or you're just being super stubborn for the sake of your argument, he is miles above the player that he was
Which contradicts your argument of Poch getting his development spot on, if he did then he wouldnt' have pushed for Foyth, if he actually bothered to play him after his good displays then you would have seen an improved player, Poch isn't the infallible coach that you think he is and it isn't the first time he's made this mistake with young players - see Onomah.
Nothing to do with confidence even though I gave you examples of when he played well with us in games where he looked a good, promising prospect, yeah okay sure. Tell me why he was putting in good displays when he played in those matches and he eventually started to go backwards, that's nothing to do with the required level, that's everything to do with confidence. He went on loan to Southampton played consistently and straight away started to play well and was arguably their best player hence why they bought him.
Well we wanted Hojbjerg at the time which was Jose's no1 choice and KWP had already spent 6 months there so that was always going to happen regardless, by the time Jose came in it was clear that the move made a lot of sense for both parties.
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His plan to to stay at Spurs. Spend every second of his time when working to be spent with a team that was one of the top 3 in the country (competing for the league titles, FA Cups, League Cups and Champions Legaue) the calibre of the squad wasn't a flash in the pan like Leicester, it was constant so therefore genuinely high calibre of player (valued the 9th highest in the World), he was learning off them, their training, their habits and then the experiences of competing for those titles.
Again, your premise is based solely on the fact that playing games for Scunthorpe (or whoever) on loan is good for his development. I'm NOT saying that this isn't the case, I'm saying that for certain players it might not be. And to use KWP as a specific example the fact he's a regular at Southampton now IS a direct consequence of his development at Spurs. (Could he have developed faster? I don't know, no one does. But we do know as a statement of fact that he is a regular first-team player at Southampton today and that he was developed by Spurs, he's a product of our academy and his specific development plan he worked under, which specified that he remains with the team and NOT go out on loan.
He's made the England squad because there's been a load of players who've pulled out injured. I hope he impresses enough in this opportunity to gain a place in the team but let's see what happens when those ahead of him are fit.
He's better player virtue to the fact that his fitness is improved, he can now compete across an entire game, during the game he's aggressive and competes. This doesn't affect they way he dribbles, kicks a football, technically he's the same (he's dominating his side of the pitch as he did in our academy - he NEVER did this for the first team at Spurs, physically he wasn't able to compete - he now dose. This is what I'm referring to, just his fitness. technically he looks almost identical, doing the same things he did for us.)
This is important because this is maybe what Poch was working on by keeping him at Spurs, his double and triple sessions. He's training against Son, Lucas, Kane, Rose, Lamela, Dele, Llorente all of these players far better than he would come up against in if loaned to Orient (or whoever). Technically he's already a player, physically he wasn't.
Just want to confirm AGAIN - I'm NOT saying Poch got it spot on. I'm saying I don't know, I'm saying NO ONE can claim either way. Why? Because he's a PL player at Southampton NOW. If he stayed at Spurs (and Poch was still overseeing his development) then is it not fair to say that he could be playing for Spurs now as our RB because this is what Poch was planning. I thought Foyth was better at RB than KWP at the time (although fairly sure we bought him to play CB eventually). I thought Aurier was better then KWP. I didn't and still don't rate Tripps and I would have had KWP over him, he wasn't "better" then him because he lacked physically which impeded dramatically how he played and competed but I'd have stuck with him over Tripps, principally because KWP was better suited to how we wanted to play, with Tripps he was a terrible fit for how we played (KWP was technically a better footballer who could dribble past players, Tripp's simply can't do this, just a small example for my reasoning here).
If you listen to Onomah himself he categorically blames himself for not making it at Spurs, stating his application wasn't right. We don't have any information why we sold him but perhaps this was the reason, if so then what we do know about Poch is that he wouldn't entertain such attitudes in his squad. It's a good reference point to look at Onomah, they were of the same class and came through together, both of them training with the squad. He hasn't gone on to make it as KWP has, another indicator that Poch got it right because it was he that let Onomah go, he didn't entertain this with KWP, so we can assume that KWP's attitude, as well as his ability, was still keeping him at Spurs. He's a regular PL player Onomah isn't (he might be in the PL next year, but he hasn't nailed down his spot for Fulham yet).
I disagree on the "confidence" issues your sight, I just say he wasn't physically ready, he would have jelly legs in 2nd halves of games, lose his individual battles. Stamina wasn't high and therefore didn't dominate his opposite number pinning them back. (he did have some good games, his debut was probably his best and there defiantly was another just as good but when he was given MoTM against Newcastle that was a heartfelt vote, he absolutely wasn't our best player that day. For most of his games, he was right on the edge of his physical capabilities, this affected how he played. He wasn't quite ready.
I'm not in a position to judge his performances when on loan at Southampton as I barely saw him (just highlights mostly) but of the 3(???) full games I saw him play he was no different than he was for us at Spurs, I saw a lot of him getting outmuscled, losing lots of duels. I highly doubt he was their best player but even if he was it just underlines the calibre of players he was training with at Spurs compared to those at Southampton and that there's a counterargument to be had to say that playing against Kane, Son, Lucas, Dele, Eriksen is more challenging than those he would encounter on loan in League One of the Championship. (I'm NOT stating a case of fact here, just offering an alternative POV because as I've been saying no one knows. We do know that he's a product of our academy Poch didn't want him sold like Onomah, he was sold by Jose and he's now a first-team PL player for Southampton.
KWP should probably be looking at Skipp and thanking his lucky stars he left and joined a club where the medical team know how to give an injection and not cripple you tbf...
Sorry I fail to see the relevence of this picture here?
Walker Peters had been training with the first team for a few years when Poch was in charge, he spent approx 3 years learning from them and gaining experience, this is part of his nurturing that all players need to go through so agree with that but it's pointless if you're not gaining experience on the pitch, that's how you cut your teeth and hone your skills and mature as a person and a player.
Scunthorpe? Why would you assume we'd loan him to Scunthorpe?
Because it literally is...there's 1000 of kids who go out on loan and improve and guess what they more often that not become better players. Do you think Skipp would be the player he is now if he hadn't been at Norwich (not Scunthorpe) for a year?
There's an overwhelming majority of evidence that suggests that when you play you get better, I don't know why you're denying this.
More to the point I'm not only advocating him going out on loan, what I'm saying is we should have used the loan system or just played him consistently.
Well it's hughly unlikely that he's going to be picked for the WC and I think you probably know that, but that's due to the fact that he has an abundence of top class players who are going to be picked in front of him, that's not his fault. The fact that he's even picked and gained his caps over Lamptey, Wan Bissaka, Livramento, Max Aarons, Ben Johnson tells you he's jumped right to the front of the queue which is a long way from where he was a couple of years ago.
So you're saying that Poch's double training sessions is better preparation for players as opposed to actually playing matches? What other young players he used this exact same method on actually improved and made it into the first team, in fact what players can you think of in world football who weren't wonderkids actually improved by not playing matches?
It's funny you keep mentioning that we would have potentially loaned him to Scunthorpe or Leyton Orient yet we loaned him to Southampton and instantly improved as a result.
Well unfortunately the overwhelming evidence suggests that Poch wasn't planning anything for him and was more than likely to use him on the odd occasion due to injuries or suspension.
2017/18 he played 3 PL matches, 2018/19 he played 6, all this while signing Aurier after letting go of Walker and signing Foyth who was a CB then converting him to a RB, please make it make sense...
To be very clear, my issue isn't that Onomah was sold, like KWP by the time it came to selling them clearly their time was up and had to move on, my issue is the way they were treated, Onomah again is another one who either should have got more playing time or if his attitude wasn't up to it gone somewhere to play more matches, even if Poch didn't think he would make it at Spurs, it's would ahave been beneficial for all parties for him to go on loan regardless.
With KWP is was just history repeating itself which was the frustrating part.
The irony is that people have a go at Jose for mistreating younger players but he had the right idea, sending Skipp and Sess to other clubs to gain experience and came back better players, you can guarantee that both players wouldnt' have had that opportunity if Poch stuck around.
Point is whether he was MOTM or not he played well, normally when you play well it earns you more matches, the only other match he started that season was against Leicester where he got 2 assists.
The following season his first match was against Barcelona and bar his mistake for the goal recovered well in that match, he also played 90 mins against Bournemouth and got 3 assists if you recall.
I say that's a player more than ready to play more or at least play more than 9 matches in 76.
You 'highly doubt' hmmm well you're clearly just guessing here for the sake of your argument.
Again not really sure why you're suggesting he would have played in league 1 when he literally went on loan to Southampton.
Southampton fans were estatic with him when he initially went on loan to them:
It's funny you say that the calibre of player is better at Spurs yet he would have been our best RB at Spurs last season and this season, looks like we've come full circle here
For the umpteenth time, I'm NOT drawing a line in the sand and making categorical statements about a player would have been better off had X, Y or Z happened!!!
I'm sticking with the facts of what happened in his career to this point in time.
By taking this position I am 100% opposed to the idea that had Poch done X, Y, Z differently then he would have been playing for Spurs now, or he would have developed faster. It "could" have been the case, it "might" have happened but it didn't happen.
To state that had he been loaned out would have meant that he would have made it at Spurs is nonsense. To say that had he been loaned out he would have cemented his position down as a pro-footballer faster than he has done is nonsense or because he wasn't loaned out this negatively affected his development is nonsense. No one knows what would have happened if he was loaned out, it might have accelerated his development but it might not have.
What we do know is that he is where he is today as a direct consequence of his development at Spurs (and during his 2 seasons at Southampton). He's a product of our academy and our development, the latter half of this development had him train with one of the best football teams in Europe and play in the Champions Legaue in Camp Nou against Barca to take us into the knockout phases (it was a performance that typified him at the time too, got muscled off the ball that leads to a goal for Barca in the opening 5mins but he grew into the game as we took control of the game and got the draw we needed, though he had been subbed off by the time our equalizer came. That had him as a substitute in the biggest Club Cup Competition Final on the planet. So I'm suggesting that having him be in these games, training with this team was very opposite of a negative impact on his development (we know this with certainty because today he is a first-team player for a PL team).
Yes! I'm suggesting had he remained at Spurs (and I have to assume that had Poch remained or had we had a more progressive coach than the dinosaur, eg Hasenhuttl) then he would have been our best RB at Spurs this season because he's ALLWAYS had the talent to be so, he just didn't have the physical attributes (stamina, aggression, ability to dominate his opposite number, win his individual duals) that enabled him to compete with a player for that position with us (Aurier, Tripps & Foyth were all physically better than he was). Let's not forget that under the dinosaur we did NO physical training, absolutely nothing!!!
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