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Ossie's Cream said:
Katie Price?
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Same thing really.
 
LLB Part Deux said:
While you might be right, there is pretty much no evidence to back that up right now. I thought Sherwood was pretty rubbish as our manager (no obvious gameplan, very cringey cult-of-his-own-personality) but what has Poch done that makes him 10x the manager? Certainly his track record doesn't suggest that (midtable in Spain, dismissed while in last position in Spain, midtable in the Prem, 7th with us).

God I hope Poch is as good as you say, there's certainly signs there that we're improving, but your outburst seems a little strong given that we aren't having a paricularly good season.
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Pochettino's results in Spain, and at Soton were done on a wage bill that should have seen them in the relegation battle. Based on the squad he had, the team immensely over-achieved.

It's a lot harder to do that, the further up the table you go, as the quality of the competition improves as well.

We've had an ok year, and done relatively well. We all feel down after a tough loss, but given the squad we have, and our competition, I think we're not too bad.

Next year will be a lot easier when we don't have to worry about Europe in all likelihood. (Not because we are going to be worse than last year, but because the "top 4" have been so shit in Europe that they've dragged our co-efficient down so the Premier League will likely only have 3 entries in the Champion's League next year).
 
Juicy Sushi said:
Pochettino's results in Spain, and at Soton were done on a wage bill that should have seen them in the relegation battle. Based on the squad he had, the team immensely over-achieved.

It's a lot harder to do that, the further up the table you go, as the quality of the competition improves as well.

We've had an ok year, and done relatively well. We all feel down after a tough loss, but given the squad we have, and our competition, I think we're not too bad.

Next year will be a lot easier when we don't have to worry about Europe in all likelihood. (Not because we are going to be worse than last year, but because the "top 4" have been so shit in Europe that they've dragged our co-efficient down so the Premier League will likely only have 3 entries in the Champion's League next year).
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I hadn't really thought about whether or not we'd get less than 4 CL berths. No, English sides haven't done too well this year, but I think that UEFA knows there is more money to be made by allowing 4 spots. I don't think that only 3 is happening.
 
Juicy Sushi said:
Pochettino's results in Spain, and at Soton were done on a wage bill that should have seen them in the relegation battle. Based on the squad he had, the team immensely over-achieved.
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That's an exaggeration. Espanyol were a midtable side before he took over (typically 11th/12th spot but as high as 5th in the last decade) and he did well to lead them to 10th, 11th and 8th in his seasons there but hardly 'immensely over achieved' - particularly when you take into consideration that he was sacked with Espanyol bottom of the table in his last season. As for Southampton, if Poch immensely over-achieved with Lallana, Chambers and Shaw in the side then Koeman must be a miracle worker to do even better with a side ripped apart at the end of last season.

Juicy Sushi said:
Next year will be a lot easier when we don't have to worry about Europe in all likelihood. (Not because we are going to be worse than last year, but because the "top 4" have been so shit in Europe that they've dragged our co-efficient down so the Premier League will likely only have 3 entries in the Champion's League next year).
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It would take an excellent season for Italian clubs to overhaul us (and we're already guaranteed 4 spots next year) but it's definitely looking like more of a scrap for the 4th spot in 2017 onwards. Our 'strong season' co-efficient for 2010/2011 drops off at the end of this season leaving us with just under 62pts for the last 4 seasons - still well ahead of the 55pts Italy have for the same period. Germany will probably overhaul us but they already have 4 spots.

I'm not anti-Poch. I'm looking forward to seeing how far he can take the team next season, and whether he can bring players in to fix our systematic defensive frailty... but I genuinely cannot see anything in his track record that gives me the strength of belief that some fans seem to have in him.
 
Benjamin said:
I hadn't really thought about whether or not we'd get less than 4 CL berths. No, English sides haven't done too well this year, but I think that UEFA knows there is more money to be made by allowing 4 spots. I don't think that only 3 is happening.
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It's not a call UEFA gets to make like that though. The co-efficient dictates the number of places, so if someone grows more than England's level, the Premier League loses a spot. I don't think anyone will mourn the loss of Woolwich in Europe, either, for that matter.
 
LLB Part Deux said:
That's an exaggeration. Espanyol were a midtable side before he took over (typically 11th/12th spot but as high as 5th in the last decade) and he did well to lead them to 10th, 11th and 8th in his seasons there but hardly 'immensely over achieved' - particularly when you take into consideration that he was sacked with Espanyol bottom of the table in his last season. As for Southampton, if Poch immensely over-achieved with Lallana, Chambers and Shaw in the side then Koeman must be a miracle worker to do even better with a side ripped apart at the end of last season.
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I don't know if the case can be made they were ripped apart. Arguably, they actually upgraded the quality of the squad. Definitely when you compare Lambert and Lallana to Pelle, Tadic and Mane, they are not the losers in that switch.

And yes, the broad evaluation by most observers was that given the money being spent on the squad was 20-15th place wages, Pochettino's results at both clubs were over-achievements. His last year at Espanyol was worse, but hell, Klopp got relegated once, nearly twice. Fergie finished outside of the top 4 once. Bad years can happen. They happened to Bill Nicholson often as well.

It would take an excellent season for Italian clubs to overhaul us (and we're already guaranteed 4 spots next year) but it's definitely looking like more of a scrap for the 4th spot in 2017 onwards. Our 'strong season' co-efficient for 2010/2011 drops off at the end of this season leaving us with just under 62pts for the last 4 seasons - still well ahead of the 55pts Italy have for the same period. Germany will probably overhaul us but they already have 4 spots.
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I think the concern is more about France, or another country gaining a spot which costs England one. But we'll have to see where things are at the end of the year. A deep run by Juventus or PSG would fuck Woolwich. Which I could almost live with if it removed the "top-4 or bust" mentality of many here.

I'm not anti-Poch. I'm looking forward to seeing how far he can take the team next season, and whether he can bring players in to fix our systematic defensive frailty... but I genuinely cannot see anything in his track record that gives me the strength of belief that some fans seem to have in him.
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That's fine, but others do. I don't know what else you'd need though. He's a very good young manager, and although not an established choice, he's going to be one of the next wave I feel, along with Dyche, Koeman and Nuno Espirito Santo.

I think he's not perfect, but I like what I have seen, and I have faith that he will learn and grow. He potentially could be at this managerial lark for another 20 years, so we're very much not seeing a mature leader yet.
 
Juicy Sushi said:
I don't know if the case can be made they were ripped apart. Arguably, they actually upgraded the quality of the squad. Definitely when you compare Lambert and Lallana to Pelle, Tadic and Mane, they are not the losers in that switch.
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I think the view of many people was that Southampton would do well not to get relegated his season after the loss of their key players from last season (with a couple of exceptions). In fact, 5 of the 11 journalists asked by the Mirror at the start of the season had Southampton to be relegated http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/9763482/The-Page-That-Will-Do-The-Dirty-Favours.

I didn't even mention the loss of their key defender (Lovren) or the injury to Jay Rodriguez. After Atkins sacking (15th place) and Poch's appointment (they finished 14th that season) the Southampton board backed Poch with more 'club record' signings (Wanyama and Osvaldo) and added Lovren so I think improvement would have been expected - maybe not as high as 8th, but certainly a decent mid-table finish.

Juicy Sushi said:
I think the concern is more about France, or another country gaining a spot which costs England one. But we'll have to see where things are at the end of the year. A deep run by Juventus or PSG would fuck Woolwich. Which I could almost live with if it removed the "top-4 or bust" mentality of many here.
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France are miles away from getting Englands spot. The co-efficients are determined over 5 years of European competition performance and England are currently 2nd with the top 4 nations getting four spots in the CL. Germany is just behind England this season and Italy trail further behind. France will get nowhere near that additional spot as their league doesn't have depth yet - even Portugal is ahead in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

Weirdly I think we're broadly on the same page in that I'm optimistic still about Poch, but with a much more reserved standpoint on his achievements so far. The simple truth is that there is no empirical evidence to suggest Poch is the man to take us back into the top 4, but based on his performance in his full season at Southampton and a few signs throughout this season, there's enough there to say that he's worth sticking with for at least 1 more season.
 
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