Harry Winks

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Dont talk about logic by giving an illogical example. By my logic Harry Kane wasnt out best player of the season, Son rightly was picked ahead of him.

In a game where others had made are lot more positive contributions to the win, picking Winks as Motm is stupid because we were losing with him and won big without.

Not to get dragged into the broader argument, but when...?
 
Those idiots that go ''so and so went off and we scored therefore so and so is shit'' are the most idiotic fans.

I once saw a Barca game where Messi went off injured early in the second half when they were drawing and they ended up winning 4-1.

Absolutely moronic thought processes.
Thats not even what i said. Did Messi get Motm in that game? I would guess no. Because he wasnt involved in time they scored the 3 or 4.

Absolutely nonsense again. Use logical examples.
 
Dont talk about logic by giving an illogical example. By my logic Harry Kane wasnt out best player of the season, Son rightly was picked ahead of him.

In a game where others had made are lot more positive contributions to the win, picking Winks as Motm is stupid because we were losing with him and won big without.
I'm not talking about picking him at MOTM. Your suggestion that just because he went off and we scored 3 goals means he is shit is mental.

I could name you a million players who have been subbed whose team then scored plenty of goals. A lot of the best ever, in fact. Does that make them crap or dismiss their performances?

No, of course not. It's stupid logic.

Thats not even what i said. Did Messi get Motm in that game? I would guess no. Because he wasnt involved in time they scored the 3 or 4.

Absolutely nonsense again. Use logical examples.
This post wasn't aimed at you.
 
Didnt Son win player of the season for us last year?

If that's all you meant, touche... T'is a bit fuzzy given the exchange you were having about quality of player... Though you meant literally and/or that Son is the proverbial first name on the teamsheet.

Personally, I think if you project Harry's goals over the rest of the season based on no injuries (+ what those goals would have potentially meant to our season), I think he'd have been a shoe in for POTY.
 
I'm not talking about picking him at MOTM. Your suggestion that just because he went off and we scored 3 goals means he is shit is mental.
When did I say he is shit because we won without him and lost with him. My 'suggestion' was that others played better and there were plenty better than him in that match to deserve Motm.
 
How much of that was to do with the upside of us playing 41212 though?

(For that matter, what is said upside? ...Like I said already, we look "creatively constipated" irrespective of individual personnel or energy levels.. We came out the blocks quickly against Villa remember...)

I happen to think that we struggled at times last year in game when we needn't have thanks to 41212.

....Look, my ultimate sentiment here isn't that Poch is shit; nor do I criticize him lightly as I think he's worked minor miracles here.
Sorry that was pure in response to your last line.

The Diamond can work in certain circumstances and i think GLC and N’Dombele both have the perfect profile to play down the sides of the diamond, both are industrious, creative and can transition the ball.

I think Winks, Sissoko and N’Dombele together doesn’t work, add in that Lamela wants it to feet but rarely shoots from distance like Eriksen or breaks beyond the frontline like Dele, and there’s your constipation.

With players who all offer something uniquely different in the diamond, it can work, also the strikers need to be in the channels all the time but they’ll only get the space if the oppo defence plays higher... see how we destroyed Everton at Goodison last season.

For me there’s no right or wrong tactic in football, every system and philosophy has strengths and weaknesses. Player quality matters most and IMO we added 3 clear upgrades in talent to the squad.
 
If that's all you meant, touche... T'is a bit fuzzy given the exchange you were having about quality of player... Though you meant literally and/or that Son is the proverbial first name on the teamsheet.

Personally, I think if you project Harry's goals over the rest of the season based on no injuries (+ what those goals would have potentially meant to our season), I think he'd have been a shoe in for POTY.
Of course Son wasnt actually picked ahead of kane. Not that I was particularly excited about Kane being picked ahead of Lucas in the final. :(
 
The Diamond can work in certain circumstances and i think GLC and N’Dombele both have the perfect profile to play down the sides of the diamond, both are industrious, creative and can transition the ball.

I think Winks, Sissoko and N’Dombele together doesn’t work, add in that Lamela wants it to feet but rarely shoots from distance like Eriksen or breaks beyond the frontline like Dele, and there’s your constipation.

With players who all offer something uniquely different in the diamond, it can work, also the strikers need to be in the channels all the time but they’ll only get the space if the oppo defence plays higher... see how we destroyed Everton at Goodison last season.

For me there’s no right or wrong tactic in football, every system and philosophy has strengths and weaknesses. Player quality matters most and IMO we added 3 clear upgrades in talent to the squad.

Again, I'm basing my opinion off of 12 months of football, not the Villa game exclusively...

What are the circumstances that it can work?

Even with a 3 man CM of GLC / Winks / Ndombele we'll be no less prone to width issues and to 3 attackers all trying to bulldoze through the oppo's CBs and DMs.

I've read previously that we don't have the FBs for the system to work well either, but that's not gonna be magically remedied in the near future.

I openly admit that 41212 doesn't help Sissoko's game, but equally I don't buy the inadvertent implication that his presence makes the whole system dysfunctional, but let's suppose hypothetically that it does... Again, why persist with that system then? Why persist with trying to force a system on us that stifles our creativity and neuters a lot of HKs threat; seemingly solely in the name of playing 2 STs (when we weren't particularly struggling for goals with inverted WFs flanking HK to begin with)?
 
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Again, I'm basing my opinion off of 12 months of football, not the Villa game exclusively...

What are the circumstances that it can work?

Even with a 3 man CM of GLC / Winks / Ndombele we'll be no less prone to width issues and to 3 attackers all trying to bulldoze through the oppo's CBs and DMs.

I've read previously that we don't have the FBs for the system to work well either, but that's not gonna be magically remedied in the near future.

I openly admit that 41212 doesn't help Sissoko's game, but equally I don't buy the inadvertent implication that his presence makes the whole system dysfunctional, but let's suppose hypothetically that it does... Again, why persist with that system then? Why persist with trying to force a system on us that stifles our creativity and neuters a lot of HKs threat; seemingly solely in the name of playing 2 STs (when we weren't particularly struggling for goals with inverted WFs flanking HK to begin with)?
Madrid won ‘17 and ‘18 CL’s using a diamond and Ancelotti’s Milan that won in ‘03 and ‘07 (you could argue that they were at their peak in ‘05) used it as well.

N’Dombele and GLC are a threat to both pass through the lines and dribble - a diamond midfield needs a minimum of 2 players who can do that, Madrid had Modric and Isco, Milan had Kaka and Seedorf. Sissoko is only good for dribbling.

On the full backs it’s true we are struggling ATM but I can imagine Poch developing Sessegnon and I think it’s likely the club brings in Max Aarons next summer so when he does arrive it’s a settled system and he has less adapting to do if his teammates already know what’s up.

HK’s fitness has been an issue so we have to find ways where we aren’t so reliant on him, even when he’s available. I think what we’re seeing is s lot of experimentations and if they’re not working, we can always revert back to our tried and tested to defeat weaker opponents.
 
Madrid won ‘17 and ‘18 CL’s using a diamond and Ancelotti’s Milan that won in ‘03 and ‘07 (you could argue that they were at their peak in ‘05) used it as well.

N’Dombele and GLC are a threat to both pass through the lines and dribble - a diamond midfield needs a minimum of 2 players who can do that, Madrid had Modric and Isco, Milan had Kaka and Seedorf. Sissoko is only good for dribbling.

I take your point about other teams (I could add Rogers at Liverpool the year of 'The Slip'), but I meant what circumstances would make it worth us using it...? Especially as until recently we severely lacked the personnel for it.

I'm not testing you in asking; I'm genuinely at a loss.

On the full backs it’s true we are struggling ATM but I can imagine Poch developing Sessegnon and I think it’s likely the club brings in Max Aarons next summer so when he does arrive it’s a settled system and he has less adapting to do if his teammates already know what’s up.

Further to above we've persisted despite lacking the CMs and FBs.... Just seems absurd (stubborn? ...Tunnel visioned?).

HK’s fitness has been an issue so we have to find ways where we aren’t so reliant on him, even when he’s available. I think what we’re seeing is s lot of experimentations and if they’re not working, we can always revert back to our tried and tested to defeat weaker opponents.

Experimenting is one thing, but making it our go to system just doesn't add up for me when we've yet to see any real up-side. Meanwhile, we're yet to experiment with what (for many) has been staring us in the face for some time now i.e 433 with two pacey WF's (Son/Lucas) running beyond Kane...
 
I think he’s got to pinch that pass that skippy has

That One through the middle that just speeds the game up and gets you through a press

He doesn’t either look for it enough or he hasn’t the confidence/ ability to play it

He is becoming just a little too much safety sideways and the balls he sprays out wide are way too fuckin slow

I rate him he’s great at keeping the game flowing but he needs to be a bit cuter at times
 
Because we had 6 players in attack as opposed to 3.
Totti Im not arguing it out all the mitigating circumstances to why it occurred. There are numerous other than this possible you’ve suggested..... villa were tiring is maybe the strongest factor. Who knows

But the point stands. That we improved when winks went off and I hope that isn’t something that occurs more often than not.

If it does he’s not going to get game time if other mids are effecting the game more
 
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