Harry Winks

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Pinner Spur said:
Eriksen did indeed make the difference. As mentioned above, Lamela or Lucas could have also been substituted instead of Winks, that wasn't the issue.

Winks played well but I don't think it was smart to make him, effectively, playmaker - he doesn't have the tools to play that role - his balls out to the full-backs were looping and slow - it's just not his thing, and I think that was a big mistake from Pochettino. Either Lamela or Lucas should have been given the role, in the absence of Eriksen.
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The mistake, as always, was playing a diamond without the personnel to do so.

Winks was fine. Arguably our best player whilst he was on the pitch along with KWP.

Lamela and Lucas however were dreadful. Especially until we changed to a 4231 which is the formation we should be playing all the time if we aren't going with a 433.

And Winks should then be starting everytime alongside Ndombele.
 
Totti said:
The mistake, as always, was playing a diamond without the personnel to do so.

Winks was fine. Arguably our best player whilst he was on the pitch along with KWP.

Lamela and Lucas however were dreadful. Especially until we changed to a 4231 which is the formation we should be playing all the time if we aren't going with a 433.

And Winks should then be starting everytime alongside Ndombele.
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Agree with you totally re the formation (of course we have the 3-at-the-back option to throw in now and again, even though I don't think we have the right personnel to suit the formation, but still...). 4-3-3 just doesn't work for us.

Ndombele & Winks - yes, I think that's the right pairing though Winks has yet to convince me 100% (neither has Ndombele of course but I'm making an assumption he will be fine). But given our other options, then Ndombele & Winks it should be.
 
Winks did his job well and will be an important player moving forward - particularly in Europe. The problem was systematic rather than individual. The diamond meant we barely had anyone testing their full backs 1v1, or threatening to get in behind them. Once the switch happened to get any combination of Rose/Lucas/Sissoko/KWP high and wide, Villa started to fray and unravel.
 
Pinner Spur said:
Agree with you totally re the formation (of course we have the 3-at-the-back option to throw in now and again, even though I don't think we have the right personnel to suit the formation, but still...). 4-3-3 just doesn't work for us.

Ndombele & Winks - yes, I think that's the right pairing though Winks has yet to convince me 100% (neither has Ndombele of course but I'm making an assumption he will be fine). But given our other options, then Ndombele & Winks it should be.
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I think 433 could work for us. We've never really tried it outside of 18/19 pre-season. Just Poch seems reluctant to try it in the league.

I think we've probably now got the best midfield outside of City with plenty of options so hopefully with all offering something abit different we can pick and choose for certain opponents.
 
Pinner Spur said:
Agree with you totally re the formation (of course we have the 3-at-the-back option to throw in now and again, even though I don't think we have the right personnel to suit the formation, but still...). 4-3-3 just doesn't work for us.

Ndombele & Winks - yes, I think that's the right pairing though Winks has yet to convince me 100% (neither has Ndombele of course but I'm making an assumption he will be fine). But given our other options, then Ndombele & Winks it should be.
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I think our squad, unlike say Liverpool’s which is built strictly for a 4-3-3 and the variants within that, is very much designed as horses for courses. Pochettino has evolved from a strict 4-2-3-1 guy to someone who loves tweaking, it’s the reason why he wants so many versatile players.
 
TeamSpirit™ said:
I think our squad, unlike say Liverpool’s which is built strictly for a 4-3-3 and the variants within that, is very much designed as horses for courses. Pochettino has evolved from a strict 4-2-3-1 guy to someone who loves tweaking, it’s the reason why he wants so many versatile players.
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Poch's current phase is not an "evolution" for the better...

Versatile players and an expanded list of Plan-B formations or not; playing 70mins with a dysfunctional 41212 (that leaves us creatively constipated*) and relying on winning the game with subs and individual heroics is not a sustainable gameplan.

(*Even when Eriksen starts.... See plenty of games last season for proof that it's system and NOT his ommision that's the problem.)
 
Fazz said:
Our improvement had nothing to do with Winks going off - it had everything to do with Eriksen coming on.

We could have taken any of the front 6 off aside from Kane and the improvement would still have occurred.
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Well if we had taken Sissoko or Ndombele off, the first and 3rd goals wouldnt have been scored.

Where Sissoko passed the ball straight back to Eriksen after the cleared corner, Winks would turn and play much safer and his long range shooting is as bad as Sissokos , so he wouldnt score like Ndombele did. (He does take shots so the 'hes only a spraying recycler' argument doesnt work)

The last assist for the goal is also way out of Winks' league. He wouldnt be able to take the ball from the air , stay strong from the first challange, and accelerate away from 2 players like Sissoko did. He would have done some other things which would be okay or slightly useful but he's definitely not got an eye for an assist.Last season he had zero assists.

His best use is from the bench when we are up and want to defend a lead. So he can knock the ball around and keep the clock ticking .
 
ArcspacE said:
It is no coincidence we played so much better and scored 3 goals when he went off

He's a useful player to have when we're protecting the score-line in keeping and recycling possession but offers very little going forward
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We lost 1-0 with him on making the easy passes and that 1 slide tackle. We won 3-0 without him, but he was Motm according to some numpties here...
 
Airfixx said:
Poch's current phase is not an "evolution" for the better...

Versatile players and an expanded list of Plan-B formations or not; playing 70mins with a dysfunctional 41212 (that leaves us creatively constipated*) and relying on winning the game with subs and individual heroics is not a sustainable gameplan.

(*Even when Eriksen starts.... See plenty of games last season for proof that it's system and NOT his ommision that's the problem.)
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I don’t think we won the game through individual heroics though, Villa got stretched by the switch to using a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 and eventually they couldn’t hold on. Their fullbacks had nothing to worry about before that and could stay narrow with no consequences.

The way you’ve put it the process across sounds more like how things used to happen in the Redknapp era, I do take a bit of irony from your post considering that in Poch’s first 2 seasons he was critiqued for being stubborn, lacking a plan B, slow to make in-game adjustments and the team burning out in May.

For me these last 12 months have shown me that Pochettino is even better than I realised.

The team, whilst aiming to achieve big things is actually in transition (“Tottenham 2.0, painful rebuild” etc.) and probably won’t have a stable Klopp-style plan A until 2020-21.
 
TeamSpirit™ said:
I don’t think we won the game through individual heroics though, Villa got stretched by the switch to using a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 and eventually they couldn’t hold on. Their fullbacks had nothing to worry about before that and could stay narrow with no consequences.

The way you’ve put it the process across sounds more like how things used to happen in the Redknapp era, I do take a bit of irony from your post considering that in Poch’s first 2 seasons he was critiqued for being stubborn, lacking a plan B, slow to make in-game adjustments and the team burning out in May.

For me these last 12 months have shown me that Pochettino is even better than I realised.

The team, whilst aiming to achieve big things is actually in transition (“Tottenham 2.0, painful rebuild” etc.) and probably won’t have a stable Klopp-style plan A until 2020-21.
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Would "...and/or individual heroics" have worked better for you?

You seem to have missed my key point about 41212 - which we played most of last year with similar problems - not working (which your comments innadvertedly seem to back up). I'm also refuting the idea that Eriksen was the hero of the piece.

I'm not answerable for other opinions of yore about lack of Plan B, but for me we were at our tactically flexible best 2 and 3 years ago when we would bounce between 3 and 4 at the back mid game often with no subs needed (343, 352, 4231, 4141).

Maybe you're right in that we are tactically in transition (I've already spoken of it being a "phase" so I'm not supporting the notion that it's a case of same old same old), but I fail to see how you can conclude "Pochettino is even better" right now.
 
Airfixx said:
Would "...and/or individual heroics" have worked better for you?

You seem to have missed my key point about 41212 - which we played most of last year with similar problems - not working (which your comments innadvertedly seem to back up). I'm also refuting the idea that Eriksen was the hero of the piece.

I'm not answerable for other opinions of yore about lack of Plan B, but for me we were at our tactically flexible best 2 and 3 years ago when we would bounce between 3 and 4 at the back mid game often with no subs needed (343, 352, 4231, 4141).

Maybe you're right in that we are tactically in transition (I've already spoken of it being a "phase" so I'm not supporting the notion that it's a case of same old same old), but I fail to see how you can conclude "Pochettino is even better" right now.
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Because IMO, last season’s knackered squad, that had no investment that had a large amount of injuries and Son going off twice should not have finished top 4 nor got to the CL final. The board got very, very lucky because I think last summer was a reckless gamble.

With a lesser coach than Pochettino, we’d be looking at a Europa League campaign with a break even transfer budget, no N’Dombele, no Lo Celso. Proper sliding doors stuff.
 
TeamSpirit™ said:
Because IMO, last season’s knackered squad, that had no investment that had a large amount of injuries and Son going off twice should not have finished top 4 nor got to the CL final. The board got very, very lucky because I think last summer was a reckless gamble.

With a lesser coach than Pochettino, we’d be looking at a Europa League campaign with a break even transfer budget, no N’Dombele, no Lo Celso. Proper sliding doors stuff.
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How much of that was to do with the upside of us playing 41212 though?

(For that matter, what is said upside? ...Like I said already, we look "creatively constipated" irrespective of individual personnel or energy levels.. We came out the blocks quickly against Villa remember...)

I happen to think that we struggled at times last year in game when we needn't have thanks to 41212.

....Look, my ultimate sentiment here isn't that Poch is shit; nor do I criticize him lightly as I think he's worked minor miracles here.
 
adasai said:
r, Winks would turn and play much safer and his long range shooting is as bad as Sissokos ,
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That is absolute crap. I can't be bothered to find it on youtube, but I recall a long range one in CL beating the keeper but hitting the bar. Sissoko has scored one I think in PL, and that was a misshit. Sissoko should only be allowed to have a go in a penalty shoot out, if we havent won with the previous 10 takers.
 
White Van Jan said:
That is absolute crap. I can't be bothered to find it on youtube, but I recall a long range one in CL beating the keeper but hitting the bar. Sissoko has scored one I think in PL, and that was a misshit. Sissoko should only be allowed to have a go in a penalty shoot out, if we havent won with the previous 10 takers.
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I recall that one long range one too...but I can recall many others that are way wide. You cant use one example and forget the rest.
 
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