There is a very logical and straight forward reason for that...
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There is a very logical and straight forward reason for that...
Holtby is 23. I honestly believe that by 23 you will normally see players with high potential start showing it. I don't think he's shown enough at this age to warrant a potential greater than being a sub player for Spurs. I think the fact that Eriksen has one more PL game than Holtby with 8 month less at the team only speaks to how good Eriksen actually is and how he has a higher level of talent that he'd play in the first team so often. The coaches obviously felt more comfortable with Eriksen in there, going as far as to loan out Holtby.
That means they thought he was excess, needed minutes somewhere else because he wouldn't get them here, and that he is NOT considered one of their very top prospects. I say the last part because at 23, if you are a top young player you probably won't get loaned out unless you just don't fit into the team. As that isn't necessarily the case with Holtby, I feel it's more to do with his current skill level and ability than anything else. Holtby has had time, and then with Fullham and has still not done a whole lot. I would say those not impressed by Eriksen were in the minority. Personally I was super enthusiastic about Eriksen even during the beginning and really wanted him to get more playing time right off the bat.
His quality was evident from day one even if it did not translate directly to stats. I don't think Holtby quite did that. I think Holtby's enthusiasm and energy are the TOP reasons why he will get time and is useful. I think his natural ability level and potential for growth is what will eventually hold him back.
Yes it is possible for a player to advance and make a big jump to the next tier of player at age 23. But I also feel it is much less likely at that age than say 21. Every year further that ceiling gets lower and lower. So I would go as far as to say if Holtby doesn't show that quality this season, he very well may never be more than he is give or take a minor progression.
Perhaps the fact that he is indeed a fans player, and shows so much enthusiasm is why so many fans really seem to be attached to him. So then, he is something like a cheerleader.
Let's pick out everyone who played in that game, just to be fair and spread the blame equally....
No? Thought not.
You love making every thread an Ade debate dont you? What has Ade got to do with the fact that Holtby is too weak, not disciplined or good enough, and doesnt have the stamina to play a deep lying CM role?
Dont get excited....people are not judging Holtby on the City game alone. Its every game he plays.
feel free to point out 'all the threads' that I make an Ade debate. You support players that have had bad seasons and fucking awful games, but refuse to support players who are exposed to that exact same paradigm.
It's worrying sometimes who you don't seem to understand what your saying, then rage at people for questioning that same post.
I support Holtby. Im just not delusional as to his ability.
I support him as a very good back up squad player.
You dont seem to understand that when a player has proven something for this club, people will back them more strongly than a player who we just hope will come good....
This was Sherwoods doing, after admitting he knew nothing about a player who had been at the club for a year and preferred Bentaleb.
Agreed, this was not necessarily a whole coaching staff decision. Those coaches are all gone now anyway aside from Freund, and I'm sure he didn't favor the departure of a player he heavily advocated coming in the first place. It's also reasonable to believe Poch views him quite favorably, considering he was the one who broke the news of Holtby going to Fulham on loan. The only reason he'd be privy to that information at such a stage, or even care to know, is if he himself expressed interest in acquiring the player.
As for Sherwood, he later himself at the end of the season lamented the lack of a passer from deep. No doubt in my mind he regretted the misuse of Holtby specifically in the chances he gave him, which subsequently prompted his move away.
As many other have said of last season, no-one can be judged on what went on and I believe many of our current squad will do well under Poch. Though I don't subscribe to the idea of a player being a bench player either, between form, fitness and fatigue, anyone considered a benchwarmer will probably end up with as many minutes as someone considered 1st choice. Holtby is more than capable of getting starts in our team and I believe he will.
That said, Poch might not be too keen on having 2 cheerful Germans at the club right now!
yea..... if you think that is the only reason Holtby was loaned out then I think you need to check your reality. Holtby was moved for a number of reasons. Reason one being Holtby can't really play at the 10, Eriksen is far superior, and Bentaleb is a much better CM with a higher upside and probable future as a DLP.
If you wan't to blame it on Sherwood to make Holtby look better in your eyes, then by all means go for it. But don't mislead the poor fans.
Preach on man. Lots of people have sick blinders on when it comes to Holtby. Holtby hasn't done anything to endear himself in reality, so its shocking how many staunch supporters he has.
It's good that SOME can be realistic about a players talent. Just because the whole team had a bad year doesn't mean every player LOOKED as bad. It also doesn't mean you still can't judge a players natural ability and room for growth.
Some people see Holtby for what he actually is, a very nice young and energetic depth player and definitely not a number 10 or regular starter.
Wow.
There are some very reasonable and intelligent posters here who have very different takes on him from yours. In fact, if anyone's being "simplistic" in their view on the matter, I'd say it's you in truth.
Hmm i don't think either is simplistic. I do think It's possible that Holtby is slightly better than I think, and probably slightly worse than many of his supporters think. And then there are those that simply have way tooo high of an opinion of him.
Let me ask you. Would you say Holtby can or ever will be able to play as a starter for any of Chelsea, Man City, Man U or Woolwich? Do you think he could even for Liverpool?
If so I would love to hear why.
However I think most reasonable people think he is a nice sub player. Some are probably too harsh on him.
My point is, for what Spurs have been, Holtby probably is a very nice player. For what Spurs are trying to be and should be, I don't think there is much question that Holtby isn't starting material.
If that is being too simplistic then fine. But I have not seen with my eyes anything that would tell me otherwise.'
There is a massive middle ground between starting for one of the top four (although he would have been exactly what Man U could have used this past season) and being a bench player at Spurs. It's not a matter of either/or. For me, I think he'd be an excellent rotation option along with another player at the No 8 position.
I also think that because of his creativity and ability to find the incisive pass that he is not only what we need at the moment considering our immediate problems as of the last two seasons, but would indeed be a level of player of what Spurs are. Sorry mate, but until we get consistent CL or a sugardaddy, we just aren't a top four side. Holtby though, with his skillset and under the context of our inabilities in midfield, is a kind of player to push us there even if he isn't immediate top four material in this immediate time frame at his young age.
THIS is exactly my major issue with our team and some of the perspective of some of our fans. You are right, we are NOT a top 4 side but I don't believe it's simply because we don't have consistent CL or Don't have a Sugardaddy. Those absolutely add to our problems but I think there's more to it.
Relying too heavily on players like Holtby is another reason we are not a top 4 side.
I absolutely believe the whole philosophy our our team, how we build and what players we buy and the type of players and their skill level, is in flux. We are on the verge of becoming a consistent top 4 contender. We can't allow our goals and philosophy to become stagnant or rely on our old ways.
What is the point of remaining a mid level type of club? I would rather gamble on high potential prospects and solid vets and fail then simply keep things status quo. Yes it's very much a go big or go home philosophy, but I think when you don't have the cash or draw like the top teams, that's the only way to really build a relatively consistent contender.
Sure you could fall flat on your face, but you could also hit the jackpot and build a solid core that will keep you competing for the CL for the next 5 years.
I thought we had that with Modric and Bale, but then we stuttered and brought in players like Parker to be a starter, and kept players like Huddlestone and BAE too long.
We can't keep making those mistakes. We need to aim bigger and strive to be a top team.
Maybe I am in the minority wanting such a bold philosophy. But what's the point in remaining average?
This is an absolutely absurd question.
I will grant you that "ever will" gives a bit of leeway, but if the standard for deciding whether a player is good enough for our starting 11 is by comparing them with whether they'd be starters at Chelsea, City, etc. then the only players that would be deemed good enough without controversy are Lloris and Eriksen, and if he can get his head straightened out, Vertonghen. On form, nobody else. That's two and a half out of our starting 11, and you're bitching about Holtby not being good enough for City.
Ok, you're not an idiot, you're just woefully unrealistic.
That's ok. Spurs will do that to you.
The core idea of your point I do not disagree with, but your stance that Holtby is "average" I very much do. Holtby was very much a high potential prospect when we bought him, and if he can get a consistent run of games playing a position he prefers as he did in AVB's last days, I think he'll come to impress. He was an excellent player at Schalke, and there's a reason their fans reacted quite negatively in his last game after news of his transfer emerged before he made the physical move.
Truth, he was an excellent player for Schalke. He also of note, replaced Barca's shiny new DLP acquisition at the position when he wasn't doing well and Holtby came to love the position. He was a top player for a consistent CL side in a strong league, so there's no reason he can't expand upon that with a consistent run of form with a philosophy from a coach who seems to view his play quite favorably based on his interest in the player as evidenced by his quotes this past January.
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