You have been around for a century then?
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An almost perfect description of success in football right there. Like our success in defeating Villa. Don't forget that in domestic cup competitions at least, you are not afforded the luxury of losing. Don't knock it. For a club that has won two League titles in its history, winning a cup represents a successful season.
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Some of this debate is bonkers. For a long long time I viewed Levy as a better the devil you know character. I have to say that lately I am not so sure.
Here's the thing. I do believe Levy is a fan of the club. I do believe that he wants success for it. However, I also believe he does see it as a profit making business and I believe that the whole notion of the new stadium is to make the club an attractive, debt free purchase for a new owner. I think he has got it into his head that in the interim short term success can be achieved by bringing in a new manager and giving that new manager a summer's worth of no net spend signings to see what can be done and them if the new dawn fails, rinse and repeat until it works. In other words, he'll do as much as he can before the profit margins are impacted, and that's when he'll go no further. But, in doing so, he is doomed to make the same mistake over and again because sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate in football.
Ultimately, where decisions like sacking Redknapp were concerned Levy made the same mistake as many fans. He assumed that we'd already become a top four side and needed to push on. He underestimated the challenge it was just to stay there. Now that things are going backwards he falls back on the same rinse and repeat as before and the effect is that fans now look at the dire football and regression and feel that they've seen all this before and don't believe the chairmen will make any bold decisions needed to truly back a manager. Rather it will be another sacking, a few more cheap deal players and so on. But, conversely, Redknapp himself may not have enjoyed the success he did without the special talents of Modric, Bale, VDV and, for a time, an in form Adebayor.
So really what it comes down to is Levy's adaptability. Does he learn from his mistakes? So far it would seem only a small amount...and I think that's why the fans are calling for his head, because they just see more of the same on the horizon and they are tired of the dire mess they watch every week that doesn't seem to represent the history of the club at all.
All that said, I'd be inclined to stick with him until the stadium is done (and those who think that's all a ruse by Enic are talking shit because challenges to compulsory purchases can indeed take time, sometimes years, to resolve). But once the stadium is done I'd maybe, as a fan, be interested to see what a new owner would bring. But, again, that in itself is a risk, so if we get a new owner who tanks the club, it'll be worth remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
So, for now, yeah, probably still better the devil you know....
Here's the thing. I do believe Levy is a fan of the club. I do believe that he wants success for it. However, I also believe he does see it as a profit making business and I believe that the whole notion of the new stadium is to make the club an attractive, debt free purchase for a new owner. I think he has got it into his head that in the interim short term success can be achieved by bringing in a new manager and giving that new manager a summer's worth of no net spend signings to see what can be done and them if the new dawn fails, rinse and repeat until it works. In other words, he'll do as much as he can before the profit margins are impacted, and that's when he'll go no further. But, in doing so, he is doomed to make the same mistake over and again because sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate in football.
Ultimately, where decisions like sacking Redknapp were concerned Levy made the same mistake as many fans. He assumed that we'd already become a top four side and needed to push on. He underestimated the challenge it was just to stay there. Now that things are going backwards he falls back on the same rinse and repeat as before and the effect is that fans now look at the dire football and regression and feel that they've seen all this before and don't believe the chairmen will make any bold decisions needed to truly back a manager. Rather it will be another sacking, a few more cheap deal players and so on. But, conversely, Redknapp himself may not have enjoyed the success he did without the special talents of Modric, Bale, VDV and, for a time, an in form Adebayor.
So really what it comes down to is Levy's adaptability. Does he learn from his mistakes? So far it would seem only a small amount...and I think that's why the fans are calling for his head, because they just see more of the same on the horizon and they are tired of the dire mess they watch every week that doesn't seem to represent the history of the club at all.
All that said, I'd be inclined to stick with him until the stadium is done (and those who think that's all a ruse by Enic are talking shit because challenges to compulsory purchases can indeed take time, sometimes years, to resolve). But once the stadium is done I'd maybe, as a fan, be interested to see what a new owner would bring. But, again, that in itself is a risk, so if we get a new owner who tanks the club, it'll be worth remembering that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
So, for now, yeah, probably still better the devil you know....
I think ENIC are very much a problem, probably the problem 
They have presided over our worst trophy haul since the 1930s, now that's a major problem.
They have presided over our worst trophy haul since the 1930s, now that's a major problem.
Some excellent points. Perhaps what it boils down to is; is Levy a "top 4" chairman? Is he a man with the vision and chutzpah to enable us to get back to that level, and stay there?
Great analysis
Smoked Salmon
for me levy's change of managers\players leading to constant transition combined with his refusal to go the extra mile in transfer expenditure and take the odd risk to add the highest quality players is the main reason for our poor football Right now.When you look back to the redknapp days we didn't have as large/in depth squad as we have now but we had argueable a better first 11, certainly a more motivated first 11 which comes from having a manager in place for years and getting that manager the players he wants.
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I would tend to agree with Smoked Salmon.
But I would like to add that Levy may not have that much room to move, despite the fact that he is Lewis's representative on the Board, he is still only a minority shareholder and has to dance the tune that Lewis dictates.
But I would like to add that Levy may not have that much room to move, despite the fact that he is Lewis's representative on the Board, he is still only a minority shareholder and has to dance the tune that Lewis dictates.
If this is your yardstick then you ought to allow some context. Spurs were the first team to win the 'impossible' double in the 20th century, going into the 90s only 2 sides had done that. Utd did it THREE times in that decade, Woolwich did it once and Chelsea have done it this century.I think ENIC are very much a problem, probably the problem
They have presided over our worst trophy haul since the 1930s, now that's a major problem.
There is a smaller pool of winners since the PL was formed, in the FA cup there have only been 2 winners in the last twenty years that haven't come outside the top 4.
So basically its got harder to win things - or seems to have. If you regularly get top 4 you'll likely win something, if you don't you wont. That's really not an easy ask and is pretty harsh to use as a stick to beat ENIC with given our league finishes compared to when they took over.
But it's got easier to win the Double it would seem.
I genuinely think that comes down to the bank balance. We could only really get an answer for that if a multi-billionaire took over the club and provided Levy with Man City/Chelsea levels of cash. We'd then see if he's carry on the same or spend big.
The problem we have is that there are no clubs in the rotation of the top four qualifiers (that is to say the clubs who have qualified more than once) that are of a comparable model. Liverpool, Woolwich and Man U all have vastly bigger fan bases and bigger stadiums so they can take more risk in short term debt (or in the case of the scum up the road, charge criminal princes for tickets). Chelsea and Man City goes without saying. Everton have nipped at the heels of the top four like us, but they are a poorer club, with much smaller support and no growth program (in terms of training facilities and stadium). So really our current "natural" position in the league is effectively in between the big elite clubs and the best of the rest. We have the capacity to break through the celing with a little work, or sink further down the pecking order with just a little less effort (as was obvious during the Sugar era, despite Sugar's assumption that he knew what he was doing). It's for these reasons that I think Levy is in a unique position and it's why I genuinely can't yet calmly call for his head as I think that the new training ground, new stadium and efforts to increase revenue from territories like America and the Far East are all built towards trying to give us a more sustainable jumping off point for top four competition. I think too many fans are too ready to call for his head without having a clue who the hell if going to come in afterwards, and whether or not the new owners would have any intention of maintaining such projects. The risk is of a club in our position is that someone might come in and asset strip it, and then people would be begging and pleading for Enic and Levy to come back, just as the amount of fans suddenly saying "we should never have sacked Redknapp" has steadily increased in recent weeks. Like I said above, it's the "grass is greener" syndrome. I don't think we need to discuss how many football fans only see things in the long term....
At the end of the day we, as fans, can only speculate as to the involvement of Lewis. Some rumours say he takes an active role, others say he pretty much leaves it to Levy. As Levy is the publicly appointed figurehead whose job it allegedly is to run the day to day operations, he's ultimately the only person the fans can look to.
It would certainly be nice to hear a word once in a while from Lewis of what his thoughts are, although it's worth remembering that Enic accounts for about 1/200th of the portfolio of Tavistock Plc (Lewis's investment firm).
Spot on.
Unfortunately, those in favour of an 'Arab Sheik' have also missed the boat, due to the FFP regs. Chelsea and, partially City, benefited from getting in the billions years before FFP, to an extent that they have an established fan base and team that had a massive initial outlay,but is now settled. The hoards of deep-pocketed glory supporters help them balance the books now.
Our only chance of growth is through clever balancing of good decisions and shrewd investment, something that's not quite been there of late, but you can't judge a cake until it's baked - we've only just made the dough.
I often see Levy as a big spurs fan that tries to get away with as much as he can, whilst probably being heavily pressured into being an 'investment chairman'. I can't imagine it was easy to let the club spent £105m or so the summer we sold Bale.
Does any club ( Spurs aside ) really give a honest shit about FFP ? City's punishment was laughable and they did not stop spending as a result. Chelsea, well a lot don't add up there as their natural revenue is not there to support the squad they have.
Like so many other things FFP looks like a nice place for Levy to hide. Not like they spent lots before FFP and they have now put the breaks on. According to the minutes from last weeks meeting with THST ENIC noted a net spend of 180 million on players in 13 years. Wow - that's 13.8 million a year from Revenue streams; Roughly 85% of the cost of Paulinho. Maybe if they adopted a policy of quality over numbers we might have had better results overall.
Also Levy noted there will be money available next Summer, shit a brick what about January ?
Like so many other things FFP looks like a nice place for Levy to hide. Not like they spent lots before FFP and they have now put the breaks on. According to the minutes from last weeks meeting with THST ENIC noted a net spend of 180 million on players in 13 years. Wow - that's 13.8 million a year from Revenue streams; Roughly 85% of the cost of Paulinho. Maybe if they adopted a policy of quality over numbers we might have had better results overall.
Also Levy noted there will be money available next Summer, shit a brick what about January ?
CJJ,
" I often see Levy as a big spurs fan"
Not on your nelly , pull the other one, it's got bells on !
" I often see Levy as a big spurs fan"
Not on your nelly , pull the other one, it's got bells on !
The problem with FFP is #spursy as while city may have gotten off with a slap on the wrist, if we do the same you know it's going to be automatic relegation to division 2 which is the punishment City should have got.
He was a season ticket holder for years before ENIC took over, probably more of a fan than many who chose to criticise him
I'm allowing plenty of context. In the 1950s there were only two trophies to win until 1957, the league and FA Cup. So for us to win the lge in 1951 easily eclipses the Lge Cup win in 2008 under ENIC. The Lge Cup wasn't available in 1951.
Furthermore it's only in ENIC's time that 4th place got you in the CL. In the 'old days' to get into the European Cup you had to win your league. In the 80s and 90s we finished 3rd but got no EC/CL place. Indeed in 87 we didn't even get a UEFA Cup place as England was banned from club competitions in Europe.
ENIC have let us down, in my eyes and many others.
He says, blatantly ignoring the fact that two of the top four in the last few years have been bought teams - a phenomenon you didn't have in the 60, 70, 80s or early to mid nineties.
Also, is arguable that it took us 20 years to recover from Scholars reckless ownership
For me, a Hicks&Gillet/Glaizers situation is what the concern is: someone to come in and load us with debt for their own gains.
It's also worth remembering Villa were competing with us & Everton for the best of the rest tag not all that long ago and a supposedly 'good' Owner in Lerner has allowed them to slip to a relegation threatend team. I can't see Levy allowing that to happen to us.
There's plenty wrong with the Enic regime but until there's a serious alternative on the horizon it's foolhardy to want them to leave.
It's also worth remembering Villa were competing with us & Everton for the best of the rest tag not all that long ago and a supposedly 'good' Owner in Lerner has allowed them to slip to a relegation threatend team. I can't see Levy allowing that to happen to us.
There's plenty wrong with the Enic regime but until there's a serious alternative on the horizon it's foolhardy to want them to leave.