Levy / ENIC

[Juicy Sushi]

Yes, Redknapp failed to get the squad playing good football

aulinhofacepalm:

Didn't say that. But it's not like every game was magnificent, now was it? We looked like idiots more than once, against teams both big and small.

Redknapp's era saw us hit some highs, but it wasn't a consistent thing, and there was plenty of criticism, even then.

 

[Simmo]

I like your re-writing of history to suit your preferences. The squad's a mess unsuited to anyone. 3-5 managers have found the same problems.

What are you talking about? There isn't much history written here, THE MOST RECENT 8 games and a 'maybe' comment about January dealings.

You're saying that it's beyond the realms of any expectation and possibility to think that we could've had such a run in the last 8 games? That no coach out there (and not just Mourinho or Sir Alex) could've found a way, that the players are that bad that they definitely couldn't have taken 66% of the points in those games?

Bearing in mind the points required could've come out of Burnley (relegated), Villa at home (stuffed 6-1 Saturday and in the bottom 6) and Stoke (always tough away in fairness but first league double over us ever).

 

[sammyspurs]

“I have a squad of 25 players who can play at the top level," Wenger said. “Unfortunately you can only start 11.

"Third place is a step forward from where we finished last year," admitted Walcott.
"But we want to - and need to - be pushing on now and trying to challenge for the title.

One major difference between us and them (manager aside), is mentality.
A manager that gives his players belief.

You dont see them crying about how impossible it is to be the 4th best team.
If only we took some pride in this club and stopped hiding behind the imaginary iron curtain of 4th spot. Utd have been shit this year and there they are.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

What are you talking about? There isn't much history written here, THE MOST RECENT 8 games and a 'maybe' comment about January dealings.

You're saying that it's beyond the realms of any expectation and possibility to think that we could've had such a run in the last 8 games? That no coach out there (and not just Mourinho or Sir Alex) could've found a way, that the players are that bad that they definitely couldn't have taken 66% of the points in those games?

Bearing in mind the points required could've come out of Burnley (relegated), Villa at home (stuffed 6-1 Saturday and in the bottom 6) and Stoke (always tough away in fairness but first league double over us ever).

Yes. It wasn't going to happen. We weren't able to get the players (Schneiderlin) we needed for many reasons, and the squad as is doesn't shoot and defend well enough. We were not going to be better than we are because the squad as a whole is so dysfunctional that a significant minority throw a strop at a manager imposing their view. And the rest who don't are not good enough to make up for being too few for the number of games.

A top 4 run might have been possible if Spurs deliberately tanked the League, FA and UEFA Cups, like Soton did. Our fans and our Chairman don't want to do that, so instead we played too many games with too few players.

This season wasn't a disaster, and there are no intelligent arguments that we've under-performed the abilities of the team. Show me some data, conjecture is inadequate.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

“I have a squad of 25 players who can play at the top level," Wenger said. “Unfortunately you can only start 11.

"Third place is a step forward from where we finished last year," admitted Walcott.
"But we want to - and need to - be pushing on now and trying to challenge for the title.

One major difference between us and them (manager aside), is mentality.
A manager that gives his players belief.

You dont see them crying about how impossible it is to be the 4th best team.
If only we took some pride in this club and stopped hiding behind the imaginary iron curtain of 4th spot. Utd have been shit this year and there they are.

They literally have twice as much money to pay for wages and transfers. If they don't finish top 4 it is a significant underachievement. If we finish better than 6th, it's an overachievement.

 

[Simmo]

“I have a squad of 25 players who can play at the top level," Wenger said. “Unfortunately you can only start 11.

"Third place is a step forward from where we finished last year," admitted Walcott.
"But we want to - and need to - be pushing on now and trying to challenge for the title.

One major difference between us and them (manager aside), is mentality.
A manager that gives his players belief.

You dont see them crying about how impossible it is to be the 4th best team.
If only we took some pride in this club and stopped hiding behind the imaginary iron curtain of 4th spot. Utd have been shit this year and there they are.

How on earth could you ever usurp financial powerhouses with a history of selling your best players???? Cough cough Atletico Madrid cough cough.

Also makes me laugh that these teams who are so far out of our reach, with one sickening exception, are teams who we've finished above one or two of in every season recently; Chelski, City, Scousers and even United last year. They've all had their failings and transitions yet still we hide behind excuses of money and stability - it's been there for the taking!

 

[Simmo]

Yes. It wasn't going to happen. We weren't able to get the players (Schneiderlin) we needed for many reasons, and the squad as is doesn't shoot and defend well enough. We were not going to be better than we are because the squad as a whole is so dysfunctional that a significant minority throw a strop at a manager imposing their view. And the rest who don't are not good enough to make up for being too few for the number of games.

A top 4 run might have been possible if Spurs deliberately tanked the League, FA and UEFA Cups, like Soton did. Our fans and our Chairman don't want to do that, so instead we played too many games with too few players.

This season wasn't a disaster, and there are no intelligent arguments that we've under-performed the abilities of the team. Show me some data, conjecture is inadequate.

Sorry but the same conjecture is being used about Poch's ability and credentials, yet that's acceptable?

You know for a fact players have thrown a strop do you? Not that his man management is shit with anybody but yes-men and kids? None of us know. He may come good with all the stars aligned for him the way he wants it but that isn't always realistic.

The squad not defending very well is down to Poch overall. Individual errors aside (which can be bred from overall lacks of confidence, pressure and disorganisation) it is down to the coach's tactics. At no point has he decided that he needs to set up a unit to defend better than a bottom 6 team, he has decided it's his way or no way. Fine if there's always attacking football on display and you compromise the defending but there have been countless games where there are neither, against very average opposition that's caused us havoc and kept us quiet.

 

[Dixiefish61]

Sammyspurs

Taking no sides here but that's just cheap

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Sorry but the same conjecture is being used about Poch's ability and credentials, yet that's acceptable?

You know for a fact players have thrown a strop do you? Not that his man management is shit with anybody but yes-men and kids? None of us know. He may come good with all the stars aligned for him the way he wants it but that isn't always realistic.

The squad not defending very well is down to Poch overall. Individual errors aside (which can be bred from overall lacks of confidence, pressure and disorganisation) it is down to the coach's tactics. At no point has he decided that he needs to set up a unit to defend better than a bottom 6 team, he has decided it's his way or no way. Fine if there's always attacking football on display and you compromise the defending but there have been countless games where there are neither, against very average opposition that's caused us havoc and kept us quiet.

You keep ignoring what I'm saying.

Pochettino had credentials coming in. Still does. We do know there's bern dressing room upheaval. Those players were expected to do more, and haven't. We also know there's been several players not good enough in general. If you're a stroppy cunt, it's not down to man management. Players need to be professionals, and several haven't been.

We can all speculate, but Pochettino hsd choices and went with the system and tactics he had. If he felt he'd accomplish more with changes, he could have made those changes. Instead, he persisted. With no evident pressure from Levy either.

The squad was young, with our biggest problem being a CM pairing of a 20-year old and a #10 who'd never played there before. Yet he didn't stop choosing it. Why? If he felt Stambouli or Capoue were good enough, they'd have played more. They didn't, and there was no one demanding Pochettino play them. Our defence was characterized by positional errots giving up fast breaks, usually due to youth and inexperience.

I think a decision was made around November to play the long game and treat this year as a learning period. The formation and tactics solidified then, and we essentially decided to play those who bought into the system, and gritted our teeth for the ride. Between the number of games played and the youth of the squad, inexperience and fatigue led to enough problems that we had no chances of a top 4 finish. And the club accepted that as the price of something more down the road.

 

[GeorgeKirchner7]

“I have a squad of 25 players who can play at the top level," Wenger said. “Unfortunately you can only start 11.

"Third place is a step forward from where we finished last year," admitted Walcott.
"But we want to - and need to - be pushing on now and trying to challenge for the title.

One major difference between us and them (manager aside), is mentality.
A manager that gives his players belief.

You dont see them crying about how impossible it is to be the 4th best team.
If only we took some pride in this club and stopped hiding behind the imaginary iron curtain of 4th spot. Utd have been shit this year and there they are.

I know where you're coming from, but

Woolwich League Positions Since Start Of Premier League
10th 4th 12th 5th 3rd 1st 2nd 2nd 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd 1st 2nd 4th 4th 3rd 4th 3rd 4th 3rd 4th 4th

Tottenham League Positions Since Start Of Premier League
8th 15th 7th 8th 10th 14th 11th 10th 12th 9th 10th 14th 9th 5th 5th 11th 8th 4th 5th 4th 5th 6th

For a long time, they were at the top of the League challenging (and winning) the league while we were a very average mid-table side - of course they are going to have a winning mentality installed within the manager. Woolwich are a big club and it fucking pains me to write that, but their fans won't exactly shout about how much progressing they've done since 2004... They've underachieved in the eyes or their fans, more so than we have (in my opinion).

They've got that mentality (like Man United) that they can challenge and win the league, because they have done that in the past 15 years - something we haven't done. Poch is ambitious, he has said he wants to challenge for the league with us - yes, it's a bold statement for him to make when we've not looked amazing throughout his first season, but at least he has the bollock to come out and make that statement.

I really hope we can push on and challenge for the top 4 next season or a trophy (or both) and start building our own winning mentality.

Oh, also on the Wenger quote - Poch said something very similar...
"I believe in all the squad. It is important you know I can only pick 11."

Just another cliche manger quote from both Poch and Wenger. Woolwich fans gave Wenger loads of stick for not using certain players in the squad (Podolski is an example), so Pochettino isn't the only one not 'fully using his squad'.

 

[Simmo]

You keep ignoring what I'm saying.

Pochettino had credentials coming in. Still does. We do know there's bern dressing room upheaval. Those players were expected to do more, and haven't. We also know there's been several players not good enough in general. If you're a stroppy cunt, it's not down to man management. Players need to be professionals, and several haven't been.

We can all speculate, but Pochettino hsd choices and went with the system and tactics he had. If he felt he'd accomplish more with changes, he could have made those changes. Instead, he persisted. With no evident pressure from Levy either.

The squad was young, with our biggest problem being a CM pairing of a 20-year old and a #10 who'd never played there before. Yet he didn't stop choosing it. Why? If he felt Stambouli or Capoue were good enough, they'd have played more. They didn't, and there was no one demanding Pochettino play them. Our defence was characterized by positional errots giving up fast breaks, usually due to youth and inexperience.

I think a decision was made around November to play the long game and treat this year as a learning period. The formation and tactics solidified then, and we essentially decided to play those who bought into the system, and gritted our teeth for the ride. Between the number of games played and the youth of the squad, inexperience and fatigue led to enough problems that we had no chances of a top 4 finish. And the club accepted that as the price of something more down the road.

I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I just don't accept that it was the only choice or necessarily the right one either. Also stating that I'm hardly re-writing history by saying that whatever the reasons for the choice of course taken, those 8pts were not impossible.

As for Capoue and Stambouli not being good enough compared to two kids that are absolutely fucked after our 48-50th games......yeah ok.

 

[sammyspurs]

They literally have twice as much money to pay for wages and transfers. If they don't finish top 4 it is a significant underachievement. If we finish better than 6th, it's an overachievement.

They hardly spent a penny for 6yrs while they paid for their ground, losing their best players one by one and still got 4th every year.

You see, 4th is 4th. Its not 1st....as many have pointed out, Harry Redknapp, who did nothing in 30yrs as a manger, managed to get 4th.

Its a myth that its way beyond us, and Im glad our clubs leadership are not as big a bunch of pussies as some of our fans.

 

[LeeMcl]

I know where you're coming from, but

Woolwich League Positions Since Start Of Premier League
10th 4th 12th 5th 3rd 1st 2nd 2nd 2nd 2nd 1st 2nd 1st 2nd 4th 4th 3rd 4th 3rd 4th 3rd 4th 4th

Tottenham League Positions Since Start Of Premier League
8th 15th 7th 8th 10th 14th 11th 10th 12th 9th 10th 14th 9th 5th 5th 11th 8th 4th 5th 4th 5th 6th

Christ....that period between 96 & 03 was AWFUL....& still to this day haunting us...

 

[sammyspurs]

We weren't able to get the players (Schneiderlin) we needed for many reasons, and the squad as is doesn't shoot and defend well enough. We were not going to be better than we are because the squad as a whole is so dysfunctional that a significant minority throw a strop at a manager imposing their view. And the rest who don't are not good enough to make up for being too few for the number of games.

Yet you think 6th is fair game, and where we should be.

Again, as no one wants to address it. How can the squad be exactly where it should be, yet at the same time, not good enough?

Could you please explain it? Are we failing or not? What are they not good enough for? 4th?

But 4th is not our target you claim.

If they are good enough for 6th, and 6th is where we should be, and our target is not 4th, then why is the squad not good enough?

Is this summer revamp all about coming 5th next year then?

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Yet you think 6th is fair game, and where we should be.

Again, as no one wants to address it. How can the squad be exactly where it should be, yet at the same time, not good enough?

Could you please explain it? Are we failing or not? What are they not good enough for? 4th?

But 4th is not our target you claim.

If they are good enough for 6th, and 6th is where we should be, and our target is not 4th, then why is the squad not good enough?

Is this summer revamp all about coming 5th next year then?

The squad isn't good enough because the backroom Levy had put in place in the last 7-8 years wasn't good enough. Simple as that. Lousy recruiting led to a squad unable to work together. We wanted to do better, but with the squad we had, we weren't. That fault isn't on Pochettino. It's not an oxymoron.

We want to finish as high as possible. Sometimes teams out-perform where they should be. They don't sustain that though. We want titles, but that isn't going to happen without a miracle right now.

There's no contradiction. The squad needs changes for higher positions to be possible. We want higher positions. We didn't wind up in one this year. That was down to the squad only being good enough for this level of performance.

 

[sammyspurs]

The squad isn't good enough because the backroom Levy had put in place in the last 7-8 years wasn't good enough. Simple as that. Lousy recruiting led to a squad unable to work together. We wanted to do better, but with the squad we had, we weren't. That fault isn't on Pochettino. It's not an oxymoron.

We want to finish as high as possible. Sometimes teams out-perform where they should be. They don't sustain that though. We want titles, but that isn't going to happen without a miracle right now.

There's no contradiction. The squad needs changes for higher positions to be possible. We want higher positions. We didn't wind up in one this year. That was down to the squad only being good enough for this level of performance.

But as I said, you claim 6th is par, and 4th is not our target.

What needs improving?

 

[Juicy Sushi]

How on earth could you ever usurp financial powerhouses with a history of selling your best players???? Cough cough Atletico Madrid cough cough.

Also makes me laugh that these teams who are so far out of our reach, with one sickening exception, are teams who we've finished above one or two of in every season recently; Chelski, City, Scousers and even United last year. They've all had their failings and transitions yet still we hide behind excuses of money and stability - it's been there for the taking!

Atletico also don't pay their taxes or transfers and are one foot in the grave. It looked good last year, but they were weaker this season, and won't be strengthening substantially any time soon.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

But as I said, you claim 6th is par, and 4th is not our target.

What needs improving?

As I said in that post, the squad. And hopefully in summer it will be.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

They hardly spent a penny for 6yrs while they paid for their ground, losing their best players one by one and still got 4th every year.

You see, 4th is 4th. Its not 1st....as many have pointed out, Harry Redknapp, who did nothing in 30yrs as a manger, managed to get 4th.

Its a myth that its way beyond us, and Im glad our clubs leadership are not as big a bunch of pussies as some of our fans.

Never said it was permanently beyond us. I said we don't have the resources to consistently do it. Which is true. Even when Woolwich had no cash, while paying off their stadium, they still had more than us. The extra money buys consistency.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I just don't accept that it was the only choice or necessarily the right one either. Also stating that I'm hardly re-writing history by saying that whatever the reasons for the choice of course taken, those 8pts were not impossible.

As for Capoue and Stambouli not being good enough compared to two kids that are absolutely fucked after our 48-50th games......yeah ok.

They evidently aren't, as they aren't playing, and no one at the club's crying about it, now are they?