I'm gay. I'm having a ticket over you!

[EighteenEightyTwo]

Previously I posted that the concept of 'pride' may be obscelete in society as homosexuality is widely accepted and considered normal, but the more I think about it I realise that football is decades behind so the flag is probably a necessary statement.

 

[Joe Clash]

Late joing the party here, gents, but how is a rainbow flag political? The flag is about equality and showing that we are not accepting of homophobia. I see it no differently than anti-racist flags.

I initially thought that, but while you and I don't see it at such (especially in this case) it is all too easy to argue that it is political in the broader meaning of the word which admittedly, is very broad indeed. I agree with Anthony Beale that it's highly unlikely that this group of fans have a political agenda with the displaying of this flag, and you clearly feel the same - it's no more political IMO than a banner saying 'Enfield Yids', it's a collective statement in both cases, and just because it can be argued that the Pride flag is political, it doesn't make this less true.

 

[sammyspurs]

I personally don't think a flag is political unless it has some sort of slogan or message on it.

If the group it represents is "political" thats one thing but the flag is an inanimate object, it can have no agenda.

You are chasing your tail now you wally.

So.....if the flag has a slogan on it, it is no longer an inanimate object?

You just said a flag can be political, and two lines later said a flag cannot be political.

Moron

 

[Carlito Brigante]

Sammy's gone turbo. A little bit of time on thinking step is needed.

 

[pleb]

[QUOTE="Anthony Beale, post: 639984, member: 1973"

They are not the same, they do not represent the same thing. Please understand this.

Ha ha! So you're saying it is the exact same symbol, to represent the exact same group. But they are entirely different things? If I put a cockrel next to the union jack, it is still the union jack[/QUOTE]
If I put a cockerel next to the union jack I would call it a cock-up!
Then I am just a colonial boy!

 

[Mr S Pippo]

I have been reading with interest?

On Sunday I heard poof, queer and fag (from three different people).

Life in the 1970's

I'm not sure about people who say have never heard of offensive language at WHL, but I will say that homophobic abuse is the bottom of the list, I've heard Adebayor called a "lazy coon" I've heard Paulinho called a "Paki wanker" but I've never heard homophobic abuse aimed at a single person or player.

Again 1970's
If all this is true I'm ashame to be a Tottenham supporter.
As with the LGBT displaying a flag to identify themselves at game must be a posative thing for THFC if above observations are true. I want to be part of a club that torlates everyone and demonstrates that. My only reservations are that it may provoke unwanted attention and distract from why supporters are there- to support THFC.

 

[78Spur]

So, to get this straight (not sure that's the right term!)

We're all generally ok with the flag and a LGBT supporters club.

We're not quite sure what flags the club are allowing and on this they might be showing a bit of positive discrimination. The whole Cyprus Spurs flag being removed needs a bit more clarity.

Is that where we are now?

 

[Nick "Trevor" Sharp]

So, to get this straight (not sure that's the right term!)

We're all generally ok with the flag and a LGBT supporters club.

We're not quite sure what flags the club are allowing and on this they might be showing a bit of positive discrimination. The whole Cyprus Spurs flag being removed needs a bit more clarity.

Is that where we are now?

Nearly;

There is a debate over whether having an LGBT club is positive or negative; the positive being it allows those of an LGBT nature to feel welcome at the club but the negative is the risk of segregating themselves rather than being integrated; therefore creating their own labels and borders between fans rather than being all one big happy family.

On the flag itself the debate is over whether the club should have allowed it by their own rules or not, and whether this flag should pass the "non-political" test. A lot of the argument has been based around people's differing understanding/definition of the word "Political".

 

[Éperons]

Late joing the party here, gents, but how is a rainbow flag political? The flag is about equality and showing that we are not accepting of homophobia. I see it no differently than anti-racist flags.

A flag, as a semiotic object, has a certain set of assumptions (some of them political) built into it. As such, sammyspurs is right. Any flag is political. But that opens the door to many, many things as being political.

Considering that Bushy started his coming out party with the (oft repeated, especially by him and) naive assertion that politics and football can't mix (they must; it's impossible for them not to), then this promiscuous definition of "political" might not fit.

For example, being "pro-equality" is a political stance. Ask a suffragette, or, better, an anti-suffragette. Being anti-homophobia is equally political (as is being homophobic), since they're tied in with how power is distributed/exercised in the community.

The mistake is that Spurs have hung their claim on this famously slippery word ("political"). Sammy reads the word one way, I another (for me there's no such thing as an apolitical flag full stop), and most of the people on this thread in yet another, which could be considered the "normative" reading of the word.

Spurs should just reserve the right to ban or not ban any flag as they see fit and be done with it. Then we would have been saved the back end of this thread. Especially since that is, more or less, what they are doing anyway.

 

[78Spur]

In answer to Nick...

On the first point Proud Lilywhites was not created by the club. A set of fans via the gay football supporters network clubbed together and created a supporters club for spurs. Now when this club applied for recognition, would the club be crazy enough to turn it down? Spurs had no choice in that and have possibly sought to turn it in to a PR exercise.

The second point is more interesting, they probably need to answer that with some clarity. Again if they refused the flag then this could create more collateral damage against the club in how it is perceived beyond it's own support. That said what they want up and don't seems to be very unclear.

 

[Fidel Castro]

The Cyprus flag is not politically . It has no reference to the " illegal invasion " but
notes Spurs supporters of Cypriot descent . No doubt Greek as they were 82% of
the population at the time of the invasion before the North was ethnically cleansed .
It has just a outline of the island , no symbol of Enosis, EOKA , Hellenism or
Muslim crescent , grey wolves for Turkish minority or recent settlers engineered
by the Turkish State.

 

[sammyspurs]

http://www.sanfrancisco.travel/media/a-brief-history-of-the-rainbow-flag.html

This part is of particular interest:

In 1988, John Stout of West Hollywood, CA, sued his landlords for the right to display a Rainbow Flag on the balcony of his apartment. He won, as have many others since who have defended their right to display the Rainbow Flag. Recently, Gilbert Baker said,
“The flag is an action – it’s more than just the cloth and the stripes. When a person puts the Rainbow Flag on his car or his house, they’re not just flying a flag. They’re taking action.”

So...Gilbert Baker......the guy who actually designed the rainbow flag clearly describes it as political. Maybe the TFC know all community want to drop him a line and tell him how wrong and homophobic he is.

Making statements such as this:

Anyone that considers the pride flag political is suspicious to me. Its just a symbol, thats all. The way you look at that symbol depends on your views of the thing it represents.

..even more embarrassing and pathetic. Maybe Harvey Milk and Gilbert Baker are suspicious to you too. They must have a very anti gay agenda.

L.O.L

 

[BushHillSpurs]

Late joing the party here, gents, but how is a rainbow flag political? The flag is about equality and showing that we are not accepting of homophobia. I see it no differently than anti-racist flags.

Fuck anti facists. Biggest scumbags on this earth. UAF and Antifa are cunts.

 

[Tottenham Sean]

Fuck anti facists. Biggest scumbags on this earth. UAF and Antifa are cunts.

A bigger bunch of fascists than the people they claim to oppose.
Had many a run in with them down the years through bands i have been involved with and the lies they have spread about them.But i digress

 

[palmers_green_yid]

A flag, as a semiotic object, has a certain set of assumptions (some of them political) built into it. As such, sammyspurs is right. Any flag is political. But that opens the door to many, many things as being political.

Considering that Bushy started his coming out party with the (oft repeated, especially by him and) naive assertion that politics and football can't mix (they must; it's impossible for them not to), then this promiscuous definition of "political" might not fit.

For example, being "pro-equality" is a political stance. Ask a suffragette, or, better, an anti-suffragette. Being anti-homophobia is equally political (as is being homophobic), since they're tied in with how power is distributed/exercised in the community.

The mistake is that Spurs have hung their claim on this famously slippery word ("political"). Sammy reads the word one way, I another (for me there's no such thing as an apolitical flag full stop), and most of the people on this thread in yet another, which could be considered the "normative" reading of the word.

Spurs should just reserve the right to ban or not ban any flag as they see fit and be done with it. Then we would have been saved the back end of this thread. Especially since that is, more or less, what they are doing anyway.

Very good post, which clears up the confusion. I agree, except, as mentioned previously, I would rather the club would just allow any flag (though perhaps you don't disagree with this).

 

[Mr S Pippo]

Thinking about this ( and going against my own views ) no flag other than relating to TH Fc should be displayed at the ground, end off. No individual group should be allowed to hijack the club for their own interest. I fully understand the reasons for but feel totally against. Sorry.

 

[78Spur]

Fuck anti facists. Biggest scumbags on this earth. UAF and Antifa are cunts.

In fairness to inthecity he says anti racist, which is probably 'kick it out' not anti fascist which is a different thing.

I have some sympathy with letting any flag or none. Either way I think we should at least not be on the back of Proud Lilywhites because the club allows their flag. Political or not I still don't believe it's presence causes offence.

Oh and as a little footnote, fuck fascists, you would not have crazy anti fascists if not for them in the first place.

 

[eanN17]

I know there is a underlying flag issue, but the Proud Lilywhite flag is different in what it represents. Many gay people still feel alienated by football, and this is a start in changing that.

There are some issues where we as a fan-base should be united. I want Spurs to make a stand against homophobia and racism and applaud the introduction of the flag for one. These are not political issues, it is common sense to make sure people feel they can belong. Claiming that the Proud Lilywhite flag is political is making a problem where there is none. It's much more a symbol that tells you that everyone is welcomed here. There is a lot of homophobia still left in football, and we have got a long way to go. I want White Hart Lane to be a place where only one thing counts; if you love Spurs you belong there.

 

[sammyspurs]

I know there is a underlying flag issue, but the Proud Lilywhite flag is different in what it represents. Many gay people still feel alienated by football, and this is a start in changing that.

There are some issues where we as a fan-base should be united. I want Spurs to make a stand against homophobia and racism and applaud the introduction of the flag for one. These are not political issues, it is common sense to make sure people feel they can belong. Claiming that the Proud Lilywhite flag is political is making a problem where there is none. It's much more a symbol that tells you that everyone is welcomed here. There is a lot of homophobia still left in football, and we have got a long way to go. I want White Hart Lane to be a place where only one thing counts; if you love Spurs you belong there.

On the contrary, claiming the flag is political, is simply stating a fact.

Its creator has said its political, and its belittling to claim it is just a flag. If its about football, take the rainbow out...the LGBT is a political issue and they are using their flag with the Spurs logo.

That itself is a positive thing. That itself is not an issue.

Most people want more flags, political or otherwise. Id be happy to see more LGBT flags, along with Irish, Cypriot, Union Jacks, English Cross, Stars of David etc with various Tottenham related stuff written on them.

The problem is that the club have banned political flags...

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I know there is a underlying flag issue, but the Proud Lilywhite flag is different in what it represents. Many gay people still feel alienated by football, and this is a start in changing that.

There are some issues where we as a fan-base should be united. I want Spurs to make a stand against homophobia and racism and applaud the introduction of the flag for one. These are not political issues, it is common sense to make sure people feel they can belong. Claiming that the Proud Lilywhite flag is political is making a problem where there is none. It's much more a symbol that tells you that everyone is welcomed here. There is a lot of homophobia still left in football, and we have got a long way to go. I want White Hart Lane to be a place where only one thing counts; if you love Spurs you belong there.

If these are not political issues then I don't know what are. But I don't understand the tendency to shy away from the political. Fully agree with your sentiment about LGBT Spurs fans though.