"Yid" chanting...

[Flav]

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person

Is that not akin to the Suarez argument that we should respect his culture because 'negrito' is supposedly an acceptable word in his own country? That didn't cut a lot of ice with me.

Not really. 'Negrito' isn't racist, but Suarez used the word 'Negro' as well, which is. In context the word 'black' can be racist if used in a certain way.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

Spurs fans are going to sing it regardless. Most don't care, or don't know, and those that don't know, probably won't care when they find out. Then there are those that know, but still sing it like me.

Context is important, but my overall feeling is that 'Yid' has become as much a word for Tottenham Hotspur fans as it is a slur against Jewish people. In fact if you ask people what a 'Yid' is I reckon at least half will respond about something relating to Spurs. We've been using it for 50 years. To ask the fans to stop is asking them to give up a tradition deep rooted, and we've already been forced to give up too many of these as it is.

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person.

It has additional significance as it's an important word. It's something that the club can never commercialise. I don't believe all this bollocks about THFC PLC giving a shit about the offensive nature of the term. If they could put it on a T shirt and sell it in the club shirt they would.

What if it's a Spurs related tattoo visible in public? Or people shouting it on public transport or outside pubs? It's not just in the stadium you hear it.

 

[HyNdZee]

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person

Is that not akin to the Suarez argument that we should respect his culture because 'negrito' is supposedly an acceptable word in his own country? That didn't cut a lot of ice with me.

Not really. 'Negrito' isn't racist, but Suarez used the word 'Negro' as well, which is. In context the if the word 'black' can be racist if used in a certain way.

I think again it comes down to intent which is why I endorse free speech. People have different experiences of words, actions speak louder... there will always be a word that offends one individual more than another depending on their experience of it. Like the word rape gets joked about a lot, and I bet it touches a few nerves with some people who wish it was never uttered but go along with it depending on the context.

 

[Blanchflower]

isn't there such a thing as Muslim banking in England, or it was proposed or something...

Yes, sharia banking

 

[spooky]

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person

Is that not akin to the Suarez argument that we should respect his culture because 'negrito' is supposedly an acceptable word in his own country? That didn't cut a lot of ice with me.

Not really. 'Negrito' isn't racist, but Suarez used the word 'Negro' as well, which is. In context the if the word 'black' can be racist if used in a certain way.

That's what Liverpool failed to understand. Context.

 

[78Spur]

Fair point Flave, I actually made my point in a half arsed way!!

I just have a problem that the 'Y' word goes beyond Tottenham and Football, why should we expect the rest of the world to just understand and accept it?

 

[ZoC]

i think the noble spurs fans who have shown such admirable solidarity with people of jewish origin over the years, should now extend this amazing goodwill by making a stand and supporting other victims of hate and discrimination.

i've devised a timetable for next season:

august: a simple change to ease us in. we show solidarity with disabled people by substituting "yids" with "flids";

september: according to a recent barnardo's survey, 44% of adults think teenagers have become feral, so this month we're a stinky bunch of "kids".

october: wot with greece going down the toilet and spain, portugal and italy about to follow suite, the spurs can be "spicks" for a month;

november: they may be trying to kick racism out of football but homophobia's still rife, so backs off the wall chaps, this month we're all "fags";

december: lesbians should enjoy our spectator sport as much as many enjoy theirs, so this month we've got it licked; we can all be "lezzas" *;

january: one in four people experience mental illness at least once in their life but therapy's close at hand, 'cos the spurs "nutters" are going barmy for u this month;

february: don't u just hate white people who try and act "black"? i don't! no. no. no! this month we're all "wiggers";

march: muslims get a hard time even if they're not suicidal terrorists, but the tottenham "ragheads" are by their side;

april: discrimination against red heads isn't taken seriously enough anywhere except white hart lane, 'cos this month we're all wearing factor 15 and we're all "gingas";

may: everyone... but everyone on the planet despises woolwich fans, because they're the lowest form of pond life… so are u ready to be "gooners"? (no, i didn't think so).


* this has the added attraction of sounding like "gazza", "wazza", "azza", "dazza" and other lazy, stupid footballing nicknames.

 

[Flav]

Spurs fans are going to sing it regardless. Most don't care, or don't know, and those that don't know, probably won't care when they find out. Then there are those that know, but still sing it like me.

Context is important, but my overall feeling is that 'Yid' has become as much a word for Tottenham Hotspur fans as it is a slur against Jewish people. In fact if you ask people what a 'Yid' is I reckon at least half will respond about something relating to Spurs. We've been using it for 50 years. To ask the fans to stop is asking them to give up a tradition deep rooted, and we've already been forced to give up too many of these as it is.

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person.

It has additional significance as it's an important word. It's something that the club can never commercialise. I don't believe all this bollocks about THFC PLC giving a shit about the offensive nature of the term. If they could put it on a T shirt and sell it in the club shirt they would.

What if it's a Spurs related tattoo visible in public? Or people shouting it on public transport or outside pubs? It's not just in the stadium you hear it.

As a Spurs fan it's his or her prerogative. I know you're referring to the post office incident, but I'd suggest that the person offended make an effort to understand why Spurs fans might mark themselves with the word 'Yid'.

It's also unfortunate that so much attention is directed at Spurs fans, when we're only ones that use it in a positive fashion. If as much effort was made to find and alienate the idiotic Chelsea and West Ham fans that are genuinely hate filled then perhaps some progress can be made to the eradication of anti-Semitic sentiment in football grounds, but there's certainly non to be found at White Hart Lane week in week out.

It's kind of like (although in no way exactly the same admittedly) going after black people who refer to each other as 'nigger' while ignoring those who use the term to offend black people. It doesn't make a great deal of sense.

 

[Abbey Yid]

I've not read through the 9 pages yet because this sort of discussion tends to get a bit ropey every time it comes up (apologies if the same point is being made twice here).

My view is that if anyone is offended by it, then it shouldn't be used. It's clear that people do get offended, so we shouldn't use it.

I disagree with this. The word cunt is offensive, and wanker, and every other name you can call people. Should we stop using those and have WHL as an area where "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything"? I know this debate doesn't specifically refer to WHL but as a general rule, I think the word 'yid' here is mainly used in a footballing context.

I also think it's unjustifiable for non-Jews to use it. You don't get white fans of hip hop calling themselves n*****. If Jewish fans want to use it, then I've got less of an issue with it, but tha majority if people who use it aren't even Jewish.

Also disagree on this point. If a word is going to be racist then nobody should say it, regardless of their race. I find it unusual that the n word would be perfectly acceptable when used by a black person, but when used by anybody else it is considered a hate crime/inciting racial hatred.

I think a main point with any word is the context it is used. If someone says "you dirty fucking yid" then obviously it is offensive, when we say "we're the yid army" - it's not being used with any racial connotations. As Smoked Salmon pointed out, he has been raised to understand the word "yid" as offensive, but i'd be curious as to whether you believe in another 50yrs it still will be. I know a lot of people my age (18) at the moment wouldn't see it as offensive slang towards Jewish people so I wonder whether it will become a generational thing (for example, elder generations are generally more racist than younger people).

 

[S.L.R]

I find it unusual that the n word would be perfectly acceptable when used by a black person, but when used by anybody else it is considered a hate crime/inciting racial hatred.

I disagree with anyone using it, tbh, but let's state the obvious here, when used by a non-black person to describe a black person, it IS racial hatred, no doubt about it. When a black person calls another black person that, it isn't. So regardless of whether we find it difficult to reconcile ourselves with the apparent illogicality, those are still the facts.

For me, a white bloke from southern England, to say whether black folk in America should feel the need to reclaim the word or whatever, seems irrelevant. I haven't lived that experience.

Having said that, I'll be honest, when I hear my little brother in law (who is black) calling himself or his mates that, I don't like it.

 

[Abbey Yid]

I disagree with anyone using it, tbh, but let's state the obvious here, when used by a non-black person to describe a black person, it IS racial hatred, no doubt about it. When a black person calls another black person that, it isn't. So regardless of whether we find it difficult to reconcile ourselves with the apparent illogicality, those are still the facts.

For me, a white bloke from southern England, to say whether black folk in America should feel the need to reclaim the word or whatever, seems irrelevant. I haven't lived that experience.

Having said that, I'll be honest, when I hear my little brother in law (who is black) calling himself or his mates that, I don't like it.

It generally makes me feel uncomfortable when used by anyone, I feel like I don't know where I stand if black people are using it as a friendly greeting to each other (although none of the guys I know use it, perhaps indicating it's more 'street talk' than something used commonly).

That also leads on to the point of, if a white person calls another white person the n word, is that also racist? The equivalent would obviously be a non-Jewish person calling a non-Jewish person a 'yid' - which is what happens at the football on a weekly basis.

Personally i'm with the sticks and stones philosophy, people can call me what they want and I won't be offended (except gooner, call me that at your peril.) because they're just words. Not to say that people who are offended are wrong, of course.

 

[Coalhada]

Not really. 'Negrito' isn't racist, but Suarez used the word 'Negro' as well, which is. In context the word 'black' can be racist if used in a certain way.

This.
I think it's inappropriate to focus on whether a word is or isn't etymologically racist.
I doesn't matter if 'yid' is Yiddish for 'man' or 'good bloke' -- 'Mick' is just a name, but it becomes offensive if you use it to describe me in a derogatory manner.
(Arguably, when Spurs fans greet me by going "all right, yiddo", they are using it in its original meaning. Which is, you know, sort of interesting linguistically. But anyway.)

It's not the word in itself that is racist (or any other -ist) but the lumping together of all people with a certain characteristic into a single inferior class, and often implicitly threatening them as a group.
That's why hate crime laws exist: if you beat me up for being a general git, it's a crime whether or not I had it coming, but ultimately only has repercussions for me. If you do it because of my ethnicity, you extend the threat of violence to everyone in that ethnic group, many of whom - maybe even most - are not gits.

Trying to decide whether or not a word is racist by evaluating its "real meaning", and even to some extent getting into the whole Jewishness as ethnicity vs religion angle, only plays into the hands of racists by engaging in the debate with them on their level.

 

[jlb1705]

I believe it was George Carlin who said, "There are no bad words, only bad thoughts, bad intentions." That pretty much summarizes my view on the chant when taken at face value.

I'm not Jewish though, and you would never catch me using the word in question because even though I am not racist I would not want my intentions to be misinterpreted. It's also easier & different for me as a new supporter - my attachment to the chant and isn't as strong as it would be for most others here.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

I've not read through the 9 pages yet because this sort of discussion tends to get a bit ropey every time it comes up (apologies if the same point is being made twice here).

My view is that if anyone is offended by it, then it shouldn't be used. It's clear that people do get offended, so we shouldn't use it.

I disagree with this. The word cunt is offensive, and wanker, and every other name you can call people. Should we stop using those and have WHL as an area where "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything"? I know this debate doesn't specifically refer to WHL but as a general rule, I think the word 'yid' here is mainly used in a footballing context.

I also think it's unjustifiable for non-Jews to use it. You don't get white fans of hip hop calling themselves n*****. If Jewish fans want to use it, then I've got less of an issue with it, but tha majority if people who use it aren't even Jewish.

Also disagree on this point. If a word is going to be racist then nobody should say it, regardless of their race. I find it unusual that the n word would be perfectly acceptable when used by a black person, but when used by anybody else it is considered a hate crime/inciting racial hatred.

I think a main point with any word is the context it is used. If someone says "you dirty fucking yid" then obviously it is offensive, when we say "we're the yid army" - it's not being used with any racial connotations. As Smoked Salmon pointed out, he has been raised to understand the word "yid" as offensive, but i'd be curious as to whether you believe in another 50yrs it still will be. I know a lot of people my age (18) at the moment wouldn't see it as offensive slang towards Jewish people so I wonder whether it will become a generational thing (for example, elder generations are generally more racist than younger people).

I basically suggest you do read the whole nine pages. Everyone (including myself) is repeating previous points. I'll only be doing the same by replying to this. I think I'm going to leave it here, as I'm being drawn further in and I've got work to do.

LEAVE IT, YEAH!

 

[SpursLegend]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ongs-Society-Black-Lawyers.html#ixzz2BXffqGih

• - Tottenham also told to clamp down on away supporters 'hissing'
• - Club warned: home fans' traditional chant is anti-Semitic
• - Spurs stress 'Y-word' is not used to cause anyone offence
• - Gary Lineker and David Baddiel back campaign to stop use of the 'Y-word'

This bit made me particularly angry:

Herbert is the chairman of the Society of Black Lawyers. He insists that hissing from away fans at White Hart Lane - a reference to the gas chambers used in the Holocaust - is equally unacceptable.

How the f*ck is the hissing "equally" as bad as us calling ourselves Yids?

 

[Thelonious]

there's a 50 page thread on this somewhere, when I find it I'll merge

 

[Admin]

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/yid-chanting.1944/

 

[Thelonious]

Spurs responded to Herbert's claims by defending their supporters and pointing out that their fans have in the past been subjected to taunts about the Holocaust.

"Our position on this topic is very clear," a Tottenham statement read.
"The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting.
"Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date.
"Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it a chant amongst themselves.
"The club believes that real anti-Semitic abuse such as hissing to simulate the noise of gas chambers is the real evil and the real offence. We believe this is the area that requires a determined and concerted effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate."

Spurs

 

[Burko]

Class

 

[Raitei]

FUCK YES

Jesus, that's something I didn't expect to read.