Wolves (a) 18/19 ratings

[bus-conductor]

Our midfield was poor, as everyone has said, they got pulled all over the pitch in the second half.
And THAT is why Dier plays when he's fit. He's never gonna be the most technically gifted,easy on the eye player, but he has the discipline to hold his position where ever the ball or other players are.
He is also a leader. Someone on here (apologies can't remember who) said we were crying out for a leader on the pitch, and who ever it was is right. Dier would and is the one that bollocks the others and organises those around him.

Spoiler

OK I might be over the top a bit, but you get my point

But we've seen the same failings, losing control of games, conceding chances, late goals etc when Dier's been playing. Newcastle, Fulham, Liverpool, Inter, Brighton, Huddersfield, Cardiff, West Ham, PSV. Some of those games he was so bad he was subbed off.

He is definitely not the answer.

 

[bus-conductor]

But by your own admission Sissoko is not a central midfielder. So how did that signing , which of course Pre dated the chronic injury problems of Wanyama and Dembele, justify not buying a central midfielder in the summer ? I don’t see the logic, unless of course you are saying that because Sissoko was a bad signing that Poch shouldn’t be trusted to sign anyone else.

It was a flippant remark that does relate to Poch's new position as de facto head of the recruitment tree which has seen us waste a fistful of dollars.

 

[stevee]

But we've seen the same failings, losing control of games, conceding chances, late goals etc when Dier's been playing. Newcastle, Fulham, Liverpool, Inter, Brighton, Huddersfield, Cardiff, West Ham, PSV. Some of those games he was so bad he was subbed off.

He is definitely not the answer.

I'm not saying he's the best DM in the league.
I'm not even saying that he's the best drummer in the Beatles.
What I am saying is that he does a competent job as a technically limited DM.
He's never gonna be a "playmaker" or a flair player making 40yd passes and nor is he gonna go past people but what he can do is tackle, head the ball, and has the discipline to stay in position and organise those around him.
As you yourself said in your OP the tackle rates of Winks and Sissoko were dreadful.
Of course he can be improved upon, but with our current DMs he can definitely do a job.
There is a reason that Poch and his coaches...and his technical staff....and his data analysts...continue to play him when ever he's fit.....along with being called up to the England squads and playing fairly regularly under those managers.

 

[bus-conductor]

I'm not saying he's the best DM in the league.
I'm not even saying that he's the best drummer in the Beatles.
What I am saying is that he does a competent job as a technically limited DM.
He's never gonna be a "playmaker" or a flair player making 40yd passes and nor is he gonna go past people but what he can do is tackle, head the ball, and has the discipline to stay in position and organise those around him.
As you yourself said in your OP the tackle rates of Winks and Sissoko were dreadful.
Of course he can be improved upon, but with our current DMs he can definitely do a job.
There is a reason that Poch and his coaches...and his technical staff....and his data analysts...continue to play him when ever he's fit.....along with being called up to the England squads and playing fairly regularly under those managers.

He doesn't organise, he points. Would I choose him over Sissoko? yes, absolutely. But then I'd probably choose Ringo over Sissoko.

 

[stevee]

He doesn't organise, he points. Would I choose him over Sissoko? yes, absolutely. But then I'd probably choose Ringo over Sissoko.

He points, he shouts, he bollocks people when they mess up and tells people where to go.
In other words he organises.

I know you don't like him, fair enough, but who would you play ahead of him if everyone is fit ?
Serious question

 

[bus-conductor]

He points, he shouts, he bollocks people when they mess up and tells people where to go.
In other words he organises.

I know you don't like him, fair enough, but who would you play ahead of him if everyone is fit ?
Serious question

I like him as a CB. I like him as a bloke, seems like a good sort. I don't like him in midfield.

If everyone's fit and firing I'd obviously take Wanyama.

Under the circumstances I'd love to have seen Skipp given 30 minutes at West Ham and then brought on against Wolves as soon as Dembele went off to see if he could offer us a more dynamic option.

I realise that with Wanyama and Dembele out, if Poch isn't going to play someone like Marsh or Skipp, then we are going to see Dier, but if that's the case I just hope it's in a CM3 with a couple of "footballers" either side of him, with him just doing a very simple holding job in the middle. I don't want to see him in a CM2 as it asks too much of him.

Going forward I hope we bring someone in who can fulfil the remit of busy cunt, but who can play a bit of football too, inject a bit of tempo and intensity, not just plod around doing basic stuff and avoiding risk. I really don't think it's going to be hard to upgrade Dier as a CM.

 

[bus-conductor]

Correction. It was Alderweireld caught ball watching when they scored their disallowed goal, not Davies. It was not good from Alderweireld.

 

[dannythomas]

It was a flippant remark that does relate to Poch's new position as de facto head of the recruitment tree which has seen us waste a fistful of dollars.

I don’t think we’re any different from other clubs in terms of having successful and unsuccessful signings . For every Sissoko, Fazio, Stambouli, Clinton , Wimmer, Jansssen and Llorente there is a Dele, Son, Alderweireld , Wanyama , Sanchez , Foyth and Moura.

 

[stevee]

I like him as a CB. I like him as a bloke, seems like a good sort. I don't like him in midfield.

If everyone's fit and firing I'd obviously take Wanyama.

Under the circumstances I'd love to have seen Skipp given 30 minutes at West Ham and then brought on against Wolves as soon as Dembele went off to see if he could offer us a more dynamic option.

I realise that with Wanyama and Dembele out, if Poch isn't going to play someone like Marsh or Skipp, then we are going to see Dier, but if that's the case I just hope it's in a CM3 with a couple of "footballers" either side of him, with him just doing a very simple holding job in the middle. I don't want to see him in a CM2 as it asks too much of him.

Going forward I hope we bring someone in who can fulfil the remit of busy cunt, but who can play a bit of football too, inject a bit of tempo and intensity, not just plod around doing basic stuff and avoiding risk. I really don't think it's going to be hard to upgrade Dier as a CM.

I actually agree with that.
I would not be unhappy with a midfield 3 of Dele, Dier, and Winks/Dembele with Dier as the holder.
I know some people have mentioned Ericksen in there or Lamela, but for me, you would lose Ericksen's creativity further forward and I don't think Lamela would have the discipline to play there.

 

[bus-conductor]

I actually agree with that.
I would not be unhappy with a midfield 3 of Dele, Dier, and Winks/Dembele with Dier as the holder.
I know some people have mentioned Ericksen in there or Lamela, but for me, you would lose Ericksen's creativity further forward and I don't think Lamela would have the discipline to play there.

I don’t mind Eriksen in there because you could give him license to get forward, with two others to shuffle round and cover, but agree about Lamela completely.

Interesting discussion on MOTD last night with Rudy Gullit, about 433 and the make up of it. Poch seems to finally coming round to the idea. I hope so anyway.

 

[bus-conductor]

I don’t think we’re any different from other clubs in terms of having successful and unsuccessful signings . For every Sissoko, Fazio, Stambouli, Clinton , Wimmer, Jansssen and Llorente there is a Dele, Son, Alderweireld , Wanyama , Sanchez , Foyth and Moura.

My point was that our more recent business has been less inspiring. I definitely do not consider Moura a roaring success, or Aurier, Sissoko and Llorente and the jury is still out on Foyth and to a lesser degree on Sanchez.

 

[dannythomas]

My point was that our more recent business has been less inspiring. I definitely do not consider Moura a roaring success, or Aurier, Sissoko and Llorente and the jury is still out on Foyth and to a lesser degree on Sanchez.

I believe all the players I listed good and bad were signed under the Poch regime . I listed Sissoko and Llorente as bad signings and I would say the jury is out on Aurier .

I have to disagree about Sanchez . He was phenomenal last season and yes he still has his dodgy moments but he is still young and progressing . Like the entire defence he looks better when Vertonghen plays . And Moura has definitely increased our attacking options whether he should be a starter or not .

You criticized Poch for bringing on Son rather than Skipp but rather like Liverpool last season we are having to out score the opposition because our attacking players ( Kane , Son , Dele , Lucas and Lamela ) are clearly where our strengths lie and everyone can see that we are presently weak in CM and arguably in defence too . We look liable to concede at any time but we also look capable of scoring at any time . So I’m not sure I would say the Son substitution was cowardly or even negative.

Going back to CM I really would like to see Eriksen playing in a deeper role a la Modric . Especially with a lot of creativity coming from Lamela right now . But of course he has to put in a better shift than he did on Saturday. Hopefully that was just him being short of game time . But if he plays that role we should only need one of Dier and Wanyama doing the DM job .

 

[bus-conductor]

I believe all the players I listed good and bad were signed under the Poch regime . I listed Sissoko and Llorente as bad signings and I would say the jury is out on Aurier

But what's happened in the last couple of years is we have changed our recruitment structure and model. We've gone from having a head coach (Pochettino) who works within a structure/committee with either a DOF (or de facto DOF) with a recruitment analytics team (which we put together to replace the de facto DOF structure) headed up by Paul Mitchell where there was a committee with head of analytics (Mitchell), McDermott, Levy and Poch to a more old fashioned model with Poch becoming an old fashioned "manager" having far more influence (this was widely reported). We jettisoned the Mitchell/analytics team completely, brought back Hitchen and have made more overt signings like Sissoko, Aurier, Llorente, Moura.

I have to disagree about Sanchez . He was phenomenal last season and yes he still has his dodgy moments but he is still young and progressing . Like the entire defence he looks better when Vertonghen plays . And Moura has definitely increased our attacking options whether he should be a starter or not .

I like Sanchez too, but at 40m was no bargain, and if TA had signed a new contract I wonder if Poch would be picking him every week? That's what I meant by Jury out.

Moura's increased our options numerically but he's not really added something vastly different to the mix. Whizzy legs, but he's another erratic and unreliable player who lacks a bit of composure. I would much rather we'd have targeted a player with some real intellect and composure for that final third.

You criticized Poch for bringing on Son rather than Skipp but rather like Liverpool last season we are having to out score the opposition because our attacking players ( Kane , Son , Dele , Lucas and Lamela ) are clearly where our strengths lie and everyone can see that we are presently weak in CM and arguably in defence too . We look liable to concede at any time but we also look capable of scoring at any time . So I’m not sure I would say the Son substitution was cowardly or even negative.

Going back to CM I really would like to see Eriksen playing in a deeper role a la Modric . Especially with a lot of creativity coming from Lamela right now . But of course he has to put in a better shift than he did on Saturday. Hopefully that was just him being short of game time . But if he plays that role we should only need one of Dier and Wanyama doing the DM job .

But that's egg before chicken isn't it. The reason you think we have to try and "outscore" opponents is because of our defensive frailties. If you address the defensive frailties with your tactical structure and application then that negates the need to turn games into lotteries where we "out attack" teams with poorer individuals and are found wanting against teams with better individuals (or better tactically - ie Liverpool).

You would hope that Poch would have prepared Skipp to play that CM/DM role because he's putting him on the bench and he knows he has players with either injury concerns (Dembele) or tactical ones (Winks, Sissoko). To then abandon that structure after a few minutes seems odd to me. It weakened our midfield and exposed our FB's. He could always have brought Son later to change us offensively.

I don't mind the idea of Eriksen as an 8 in a CM3 either, but again, with the right other two players, the central one needs to be a tenacious busy fucker who'll provide insurance for the lateral 8's.

 

[Doom Funk]

My point was that our more recent business has been less inspiring. I definitely do not consider Moura a roaring success, or Aurier, Sissoko and Llorente and the jury is still out on Foyth and to a lesser degree on Sanchez.

Our business has been truly woeful for a good 3 years or so but I think Moura is an exception to be honest , I really like him , reckon he will only get better over time as well

 

[bus-conductor]

Our business has been truly woeful for a good 3 years or so but I think Moura is an exception to be honest , I really like him , reckon he will only get better over time as well

I wish I could share that optimism. He’s lively, and has some ability, but I think he’s lacking in the brain area.