I only started watching football during the Moscow World Cup on TV when I retired (American) so still learning. I've read various books on tactics and probably watch three or four Premier games a weekend, but there is still a lot that goes over my head. When those of you who have played football, or grown up following it, watch on TV what are some things you look for that tip you off on what the teams are trying to accomplish and what the key individual matchups are? It strikes me that the it's a game about spaces and spacing and there are limitations to watching on TV.
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Your clearly not as naive as you make out mate, because you have clearly identified a massive issue of televised football. Off the ball in soccer is almost as important as the individual on the ball. And yes you control the space you can control the game and its out come.
The camera follows the ball, but as a player simple chasing the ball like a puppy would make you a terrible player. The appreciation of space as a player where and when to make a run can take you from average to excellent footballer, there was nothing particularly special about Frank Lampard, but his timing of when to arrive in or around the box elevated a physically average player with decent technique to an elite one.
Going from the micro to macro Pep Guadiola's teams constantly recycle the ball looking for the space to hurt an opponent they create overloads with their quick passing and have individuals with such great technical ability they can play one and two touch to open you up and score. So yes you have identified correctly how pivotal to football space is. Go to a live top game and watch the blokes working as hard off the ball as on it you will see they often decide out comes.
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Watching on tv is a very limited experience. But you get the benefit of replays which people at the game don’t get.
As the camera just follows the ball that’s really all you can do too for most of the game.
If they ever show 2/3 replays of the same action you could watch a particular player or try and get a better idea of runs players are making off the ball.
The other thing tv doesn’t relay well is the speed they play at and space they have or don’t have.
On tv it looks like obvious passes are being missed / ignored. In real-time players never see these spaces.
When you’re pitchside at player level you can’t see the other side of the pitch easily.
From a Spurs perspective take Pape Mata Sarr, if you watched on television until this season (when he added goals and assits) Hojbjerg would often impress you more. Hojbjerg can play a great forward pass, and on occasion finish well. But I knew for over quite a long time that Sarr was better for our system and young though he was would make us better even if you lost a little on experience and guile.
Why? Because I watched them both live, I was able to see poor old Piere fail repeatedly to close space and see his oponents breeze past him off the ball. Sarr was filling holes and supporting the midfeild to a much higher level even if he sometimes didn't ( due to inexperience read the play on occasion well enough) Ange immediately saw it, but I got why it took so many on this forum so long to let go of the idea Hojbjerg should start ahead of the kid. Their perception was skewed by what the camera chose to show them.
Why? Because I watched them both live, I was able to see poor old Piere fail repeatedly to close space and see his oponents breeze past him off the ball. Sarr was filling holes and supporting the midfeild to a much higher level even if he sometimes didn't ( due to inexperience read the play on occasion well enough) Ange immediately saw it, but I got why it took so many on this forum so long to let go of the idea Hojbjerg should start ahead of the kid. Their perception was skewed by what the camera chose to show them.
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Good points. One thing I try to do is stop locking in on the ball but looking at where the ball may be about to go (especially in the final third). And you're right about the speed. If you back the cameras up far enough you'll completely miss how fast things are happening.
Really great points. This is hardly a technical term, but one thing I watch for is anytime one player gains the shoulder of the man defending against him. It seems that when a team breaks the other's shape it often begins when one player's pace gets them past, or at least on the shoulder, of the defender. Even if they can't get all the way clear it changes things.
We're getting a really low level pro team locally this spring and I'm planning and getting out to their games and more college games so I can get a better feel for that. It's funny how when I started watching it all seemed so random, then you notice little things like triangles and it starts making sense. It's great getting to watch so many Premier League games, but that "earth from space" camera view is maddening. It's also annoying how the TV broadcasts take the crowd noise down to nothing. Sometimes I'll catch a game on BBC World Service in the car while I'm out running an errand and one I come back in the house and see the same match on TV it seems a lot less exciting.
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I'm guessing if I were to focus periodically on one Spurs player it would be Maddison just because he seems so integral to what they try to do. When I've tried to that a few times it seems like in possession he has license to move into different positions. Maybe you can infer some of what is going on from where he is operating?
It's a shame we can't pick our preferred camera angle when watching on TV, as you can do in Fifa games. So much better watching a game unfold from behind the goal. Whenever and wherever I go watch a game live, I always make sure my seat is located in one of them stands, about 2/3 of the way up. There you can really appreciate the way a team moves in defence and attack...and how the opponent reacts to it. Fascinating stuff.
Also wish we had more POV type vids come out. There was one recently, think it was Villa vs Newcastle. Man, the pace & intensity of the PL is summit else entirely.
I've seen some documentaries where they showed ground level views and it changes the way you think about the game. In particular, the split second decisions players make on tackles.
As a typical 10 he has that freedom to move around the pitch. You will notice he will sometimes drop deep when we have a goal kick or are in possession too.
My advice would be to search for any extended highlights. Be it spurs or our opponents. Sometimes you can get a fair amount of detail from the two sets of editing / what they want to show.
Possible to get a good idea there of patterns we play or just general set up. The pause button is your friend!
Unless you go to a game you won’t ever be able to really just watch 1 player unfortunately.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k93V_35EoQY
One of my FA tutors / mentors was really keen on us looking for “the mistake”. Most goals a single error - sometimes leading to others - will be the difference at the top level.
From a scouting point of view do those players often make the same mistake? Is it actually a weakness in their game to exploit?
Good game to start with anyway. Three very different goals.
Only talking about our goals in any depth so watch it from 4.35.
First time just follow the ball. Timo scores but he is hardly ever in the tv Frame
Pause at 5.03 as BJ makes his pass to Werner. From that angle you appreciate how many players are deceived by the pass.
Second replay I would say pause at 5.14. From here you can see their defensive shape and where our players start from.
Pause again at 5.21. They have managed to get back in a good defensive shape. BJ has done very well but he still needs to make the correct decision with his pass.
Their LB made the initial error. Now their RB ball watches and is caught flat footed and Timo’s movement is top drawer.
That’s a PL quality goal. One initial error and you are punished.
As an aside they have still managed to get 9 players back in their box when we score.
Second goal it’s criminal they let Maddison pick up the ball from the throw in so easily. Again his dinked cross is amazing quality.
But pause at 6.20.
The simple act of Royal coming towards the ball and then actually taking the ball off Kulu for the throw in makes the palace player ball watch and lose concentration. The mistake.
Pause at 6.24
It’s the pass that makes the goal. Can’t overstate how good that cross is. And as Maddison plays the ball they have got 9 players in their box.
Third goal Maddison is subbed off by now. It’s stems from us having a GK so they are always good to watch develop.
So this one highlights our FBs freedom to move into space and commit their defenders.
Brave from VDV at 7.08 too. It’s still only 2-1 and he’s taking it past people in our area!!
Pause at 7.11 then 7.13 then 7.15 then 7.18
7.11 Udogie has committed their CB.
Udogie is as high up on the pitch at Son at this point. You can see Sonny is already moving forward anticipating the situation.
Good time to look at where all our other players are on the pitch too who are in shot.
7.13 Palace have a 3v1 situation around the loose ball. But don’t deal with it. The initial mistake.
Then a Snap pass from BJ. And Son is essentially now in a one on one situation with the other CB on the half way line. His initial movement and anticipation is far better than the CB. You can see son would be in the CBs peripheral vision at this point too.
7.15 son is in front of their CB and moving onto the ball. Onside. Their CB has switched off for a split second. He can see son, he’s aware of him but hadn’t anticipated the quick pass. Mistake 2.
7.18 Son then runs across the defender once he has the ball.
Textbook to show this to any youngster how to give the defender no option apart from to get sent off. CB can only watch him go onto shoot at this point.
And goal. Again a case of mistake(s) and get punished.
It’s very difficult to coach mistakes like this out of players. That was always the key point to remember. It’s a game played by humans not robots. Humans make mistakes.
Enjoy your tactics/learning journey anyway.
I’ve found it quite interesting watching how Ange sets up and asks players to get out of their comfort zone.
From a scouting point of view do those players often make the same mistake? Is it actually a weakness in their game to exploit?
Good game to start with anyway. Three very different goals.
Only talking about our goals in any depth so watch it from 4.35.
First time just follow the ball. Timo scores but he is hardly ever in the tv Frame
Pause at 5.03 as BJ makes his pass to Werner. From that angle you appreciate how many players are deceived by the pass.
Second replay I would say pause at 5.14. From here you can see their defensive shape and where our players start from.
Pause again at 5.21. They have managed to get back in a good defensive shape. BJ has done very well but he still needs to make the correct decision with his pass.
Their LB made the initial error. Now their RB ball watches and is caught flat footed and Timo’s movement is top drawer.
That’s a PL quality goal. One initial error and you are punished.
As an aside they have still managed to get 9 players back in their box when we score.
Second goal it’s criminal they let Maddison pick up the ball from the throw in so easily. Again his dinked cross is amazing quality.
But pause at 6.20.
The simple act of Royal coming towards the ball and then actually taking the ball off Kulu for the throw in makes the palace player ball watch and lose concentration. The mistake.
Pause at 6.24
It’s the pass that makes the goal. Can’t overstate how good that cross is. And as Maddison plays the ball they have got 9 players in their box.
Third goal Maddison is subbed off by now. It’s stems from us having a GK so they are always good to watch develop.
So this one highlights our FBs freedom to move into space and commit their defenders.
Brave from VDV at 7.08 too. It’s still only 2-1 and he’s taking it past people in our area!!
Pause at 7.11 then 7.13 then 7.15 then 7.18
7.11 Udogie has committed their CB.
Udogie is as high up on the pitch at Son at this point. You can see Sonny is already moving forward anticipating the situation.
Good time to look at where all our other players are on the pitch too who are in shot.
7.13 Palace have a 3v1 situation around the loose ball. But don’t deal with it. The initial mistake.
Then a Snap pass from BJ. And Son is essentially now in a one on one situation with the other CB on the half way line. His initial movement and anticipation is far better than the CB. You can see son would be in the CBs peripheral vision at this point too.
7.15 son is in front of their CB and moving onto the ball. Onside. Their CB has switched off for a split second. He can see son, he’s aware of him but hadn’t anticipated the quick pass. Mistake 2.
7.18 Son then runs across the defender once he has the ball.
Textbook to show this to any youngster how to give the defender no option apart from to get sent off. CB can only watch him go onto shoot at this point.
And goal. Again a case of mistake(s) and get punished.
It’s very difficult to coach mistakes like this out of players. That was always the key point to remember. It’s a game played by humans not robots. Humans make mistakes.
Enjoy your tactics/learning journey anyway.
I’ve found it quite interesting watching how Ange sets up and asks players to get out of their comfort zone.
when you go to a live game get a seat high up behind one of the goals
you can watch the whole play open out,
you will see how forwards create and move into space,
watching you will see most players hold the ball too long and the space or movement created by the forwards is wasted as the ball doesn't come (because only a few players can see a pass) we had Kane and before that it was Eriksen that could see a pass
at what ever level you watch there are only odd players that can see the pass before its there
my lad had this skill, recieved the ball one touch and played into the forwards path, when i asked him "how did you see that pass" he said "you just see it"
you can watch the whole play open out,
you will see how forwards create and move into space,
watching you will see most players hold the ball too long and the space or movement created by the forwards is wasted as the ball doesn't come (because only a few players can see a pass) we had Kane and before that it was Eriksen that could see a pass
at what ever level you watch there are only odd players that can see the pass before its there
my lad had this skill, recieved the ball one touch and played into the forwards path, when i asked him "how did you see that pass" he said "you just see it"
Yeah at its best it's as logical as 'you just see it' truly gifted players are almost working on sixth sense.
Great video and the comments were very helpful. Those were two really nice goals.
"you just see it" is a great quote. My guess is really good players have a focus the average player doesn't. I know Spurs style of play is more attractive now, but I loved seeing Kane hit those long diagonal passes on the counter. As for players holding the ball too long, that's a reason I think the percent of passes and percent passes completed may not be as valuable a stat as is sometimes said. It's the quick decision making that opens up a defense and not the number of passes. I remember seeing the Montreal Canadiens (hockey) play in person and you could hear the difference in how they moved the puck. It was just a continual "clack" sound of the puck rapidly moving from stick to stick. I think that is what Postecoglou is aiming for, that rapid, decisive movement.
the holding of the ball is more that the player wants a good pass but just doesn't "see" or sence where the pass is, and so theyplay that easy 5-10 yd pass
you can see it in Remero, he takes the ball moves forward looking for pass, but then takes easy pass
and so there is the difference a player who "see's" or senses the pass takes a touch and its then passed for the forward to move on to
you can see it in Remero, he takes the ball moves forward looking for pass, but then takes easy pass
and so there is the difference a player who "see's" or senses the pass takes a touch and its then passed for the forward to move on to
Good thread this.
To a newcomer I’d say the pace of the game at the top level is characterised as ‘slow-slow-slow-then-quick-lightening quick’! The speed is both of thought (seeing a pass or making a run) and of physics.
*blatant bragging to follow….
I played at a good level when I was a kid (Spurs and Palace, then non-league, then pub football!!). I was 5’10 at 14 and was moved to CB where I had the game in front of me, which suited me very well. Trouble was I never got much past that height and was inevitably moved into midfield. At Palace, for example, I was continually frustrated by my lack of speed. I was slowish-ish in a straight sprint but that’s not the entirety of it. The game seemed to be being played around me.
The kids who ‘had it’ either had searing pace, combined with impressive athleticism AND/OR had the ability and touch to buy themselves time to make the right decisions.
As for where to watch in the ground, I’d say I used to like the freedom of terraces to choose to watch at pitch level some of the time and then at others higher up to see the tactical plans play out.
I sit up in the 5th tier Paxton/West at WHL where I can see a lot of the movement and space. On the few occasions I’ve sat down low at the new ground I’m amazed by footballers touch (rightly it’s second nature).
The best player I ever played with was Jamie Redknapp, who could see things we mere mortals just couldn’t. As Spurs fans we were accustomed to thinking of him as slow (and he was for the average PL player) but his slow would have been our lightening quick!
To a newcomer I’d say the pace of the game at the top level is characterised as ‘slow-slow-slow-then-quick-lightening quick’! The speed is both of thought (seeing a pass or making a run) and of physics.
*blatant bragging to follow….
I played at a good level when I was a kid (Spurs and Palace, then non-league, then pub football!!). I was 5’10 at 14 and was moved to CB where I had the game in front of me, which suited me very well. Trouble was I never got much past that height and was inevitably moved into midfield. At Palace, for example, I was continually frustrated by my lack of speed. I was slowish-ish in a straight sprint but that’s not the entirety of it. The game seemed to be being played around me.
The kids who ‘had it’ either had searing pace, combined with impressive athleticism AND/OR had the ability and touch to buy themselves time to make the right decisions.
As for where to watch in the ground, I’d say I used to like the freedom of terraces to choose to watch at pitch level some of the time and then at others higher up to see the tactical plans play out.
I sit up in the 5th tier Paxton/West at WHL where I can see a lot of the movement and space. On the few occasions I’ve sat down low at the new ground I’m amazed by footballers touch (rightly it’s second nature).
The best player I ever played with was Jamie Redknapp, who could see things we mere mortals just couldn’t. As Spurs fans we were accustomed to thinking of him as slow (and he was for the average PL player) but his slow would have been our lightening quick!
Just log on to here.
Its amazing how many people know everything there is to know about football on here.
Truely educational
Its amazing how many people know everything there is to know about football on here.
Truely educational
Redknapp at Spurs or as a kid? He was a good player early in his career but awful at Spurs
Absolute fraud of a player for us, still disgusts me he was our captain