U-18/U-21/Loans/Development Squad (2011-2018)

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Totti said:
It'll only be good for the English game and the national team too (Although Bennetts is eligible for Germany too)

Lookman had a very successful loan spell at Leipzig and it could even mean he now gets his chance at Everton next season.
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West Ham sent a kid to Gladbach last sumemr as well and he did real good as well....Then West Ham recalled him in January and he has not seen a minute with the Hammers first team.

The PL has become such a brand that it has become harder and harder for youth to break through in the top teams. So it is only good for those guys to bet on themselves and go elsewhere. Better to become a solid player in the Bundesliga than spend most of your career wilting away in the Chelsea/United/Spurs/Liverpool U23s.

And if they do well they will get brought back to a PL club a few years down the road
 
Stopspot said:
West Ham sent a kid to Gladbach last sumemr as well and he did real good as well....Then West Ham recalled him in January and he has not seen a minute with the Hammers first team.

The PL has become such a brand that it has become harder and harder for youth to break through in the top teams. So it is only good for those guys to bet on themselves and go elsewhere. Better to become a solid player in the Bundesliga than spend most of your career wilting away in the Chelsea/United/Spurs/Liverpool U23s.

And if they do well they will get brought back to a PL club a few years down the road
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Yeah, people always criticise the top clubs in England for not playing more youth but like you say, it's such a brand that these top clubs cannot afford to put a youth player in over a high price signing. The fans want big money names but they also want youth to break through.

Gladbach had Reece Oxford on loan the past year and a half. They also signed a young Englishman from Crystal Palace too. Leipzig had Lookman. Dortmund have Sancho. You've got McGuane playing over at Barcelona too who they recently signed from Woolwich.

Now you've got potentially Bennets and Griffiths who are looking at German football for a way of getting their big break for clubs who are at a higher level than the ones who would give them a chance in England. Won't be the last.
 
Totti said:
For good apparently.

Though we should probably look to loan our young stars to these German clubs in future if they're willing to give them games. We've seen how Lookman has done out there.
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We really should set up pacts/relationships with teams in Germany and or France to loan out our promising youngsters. Chelsea have done this with Dutch clubs for years
 
Stopspot said:
We really should set up pacts/relationships with teams in Germany and or France to loan out our promising youngsters. Chelsea have done this with Dutch clubs for years
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I agree.

Mason Mount is another plying his trade abroad and he's had a really good season for Vitesse.
 
Totti said:
It'll only be good for the English game and the national team too (Although Bennetts is eligible for Germany too)

Lookman had a very successful loan spell at Leipzig and it could even mean he now gets his chance at Everton next season.
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Think it will only be good for the English game if the PL clubs (including Spurs) wake up to what many youth watchers have been saying to them for a few years now :

- The English Academy system is working very well, turning out a lot of technically excellent players, the jump in quality from even 5 years ago to todays academy graduates is big. That's why England youth teams over the last 2 or 3 years have been winning a high proportion of World Cups and Euros at various age groups.

- Despite that the PL clubs have been hoovering up many decent but not top class talents from across the world. Yet the very high standard of PL have persuaded most managers that it is somehow too 'risky' to play some of the English youth - result has been the likes of Jadon Sancho getting quite a lot of playing time in Germany (and looking like a young star) yet ManCity couldn't or wouldn't offer him much first team playing time. Closer to home I'm still not absolutely sure why we have invested so much both in terms of purchase price and more importantly playing and coaching time (eg how to do a 'throw in' , how to avoid giving away penalties through rash challenges, after he has given away 3 pens this season etc) when we have Walker-Peters who has probably fewer brainfarts to coach out than Aurier, but he's only started 2 PL games.

- In parallel with playing /our own' the clubs need to see whether they can also get a loan system to work to help develop youngsters, but that raises its own problems

I suspect PL clubs will be forced to learn over the next few years when they find they want to buy a Sancho or other English player from a continental side (both to meet Home Grown rules and also because he becomes one of the best players in Europe in his position) but find that they need to pay £50m+.

After being bitten a few times like that even the petroclubs like ManCity might decide its more cost effective to give youngsters some playing time to develop them rather than losing them for peanuts only to buy them back for mega £m's a few years later.

From a Spurs POV , I hope that Poch uses this pre-season when none of the players playing in World Cup will be available to give playing time to maybe half a dozen youngsters, and based upon that carry through into next season a programme of development of some of them by giving some of them playing minutes and places on the bench.

Over the course of a few years, that course of action, might save the equivalent of the cost of NWHL in transfer fees - aside from generating a good relationship between fans and the club when 'one of our own' shows themselves to be a top footballer.
 
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Given that relatively few youngsters get much playing time in PL, the amount of playing time at Championship clubs is interesting :

ITFC Academy‏ @ITFC_Academy
Just 20 players under the age of 21 (ie born 1996 or later) played over 2000 minutes in the Championship this season (ie equivalent of 22+ full games).
1 - Gunn - Norwich (Man City) - 4,140
2 - Sessegnon - Fulham - 4,041
3 - Aina - Hull (Chelsea) - 3,823
4 - Maddison - Norwich - 3,643
5 - Jota - Wolves (Atletico Madrid) - 3,625
6 - Neves - Wolves - 3,622
7 - Bowen - Hull - 3,284
8 - Williams - Barnsley (Everton) - 2,979
9 - Carter-Vickers - ITFC/Sheff Utd (Spurs) - 2,896
10 - Dowell - Forest (Everton) - 2,698
11 - Worrall - Forest - 2,615
12 - Connolly - ITFC (Everton) - 2,549
13 - Robinson - Bolton (Everton) - 2,420
14 - Maupay - Brentford - 2,318
15 - Clark - Hull - 2,270
16 - Traore - Middlesbrough - 2,244
17 - Brereton - Forest - 2,235
18 - Celina - ITFC (Man City) - 2,102
19 - Boga - Birmingham (Chelsea) - 2,092
20 - Tomori - Hull (Chelsea) - 2062
21 - Vieira - Leeds - 2,020

Of the 21 players U21 to have played 2,000 minutes - they are contracted as follows:
Everton - 4
Chelsea - 3
Hull, Man City, Forest - 2
Atletico Madrid,Brentford, Fulham, Leeds, Middlesbrough, Norwich, Spurs, Wolves -
1

And to answer the obvious question :
Josh Onomah - Aston Villa (Spurs) - 1,866 (equivalent of 20 full games)

Most total minutes for U21 players
1 - Hull City - 12,569
2 - Nottingham Forest - 9,702
3 - Norwich City - 9,580
4 - IPSWICH TOWN - 9,286
5 - Wolves - 8,876

Most minutes for U21 players contracted to the club (i.e. excluding loanees)
1 - Nottingham Forest - 7,004
2 - Brentford - 6,148
3 - Hull City - 5,688
4 - Norwich City - 5,434
5 - Wolves - 5,251 ...
10 - IPSWICH TOWN - 3,105

And the loan market operates at younger levels to if the player is good enough they can play in the Championship :

Most total minutes for U19 players
1 - Fulham - 4187 (obviously heavily influenced by Ryan Sessegnon)
2 - Leeds United - 2,761
3 - Nottingham Forest - 2,235
4 - Aston Villa - 2,000
5 - Burton Albion - 1,953 ...
9 - IPSWICH TOWN - 1,690

And to put Spurs into context in terms of u21 loanees to Championship clubs, there were 37 u21 loanees from EPL who played at least 1 minute, 1 from Championship and 1 from La Lig, and by club :.

7 Everton
6 Chelsea
5 Liverpool
4 Man City
3 Spurs, West Ham
2 Woolwich, Man Utd 1 Bournemouth, Leicester, Newcastle, Swansea, WBA
1* Forest, Atletico Madrid

So the above tells us which clubs could be good to loan youngsters to.

Its clear there is a loan market in UK we could use - and arguably the Championship is as good or higher standard than say the Dutch Eredivisie - but Spurs don't use it much these days ....and don't develop much in house, hence players will leave to develop and better themselves !
 
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Talking of youngsters going abroad to get chances, an interesting interview with Milos Velijkovic who many/most youth watchers thought was a nailed on future first teamer for Spurs but who left in 2016 for £300k to Werder Bremen.

Now aged 22 he's a first team regular at Werder Bremen having played over 60 games and almost certainly part of Serbia's World Cup squad this summer. His value now - difficult to say but anywhere between £25m and £45m would be my guess.....especially as he would qualify as a home grown player for PL clubs.

In the interview he talks of his immense pride both for himself and his country at winning the u20 World Cup as part of a 'golden generation' of Serbian players, but against all expectations that they should win. The interview then goes on -

But it (the u20 world cup win) was also one of the catalysts that pushed him out of Tottenham Hotspur. Veljkovic, who had played just three times for Spurs, felt his time to play regular first-team football had come:
“It was a really big experience for me but then to come back to Tottenham and not get a chance that also got me a bit upset.”
“After this, I wanted to be able to get a chance. Obviously, I can’t play every game then but I needed a chance or I needed to go somewhere else. So that was what I decided.
“Unfortunately I could not go straight away to Werder Bremen but after six months the club agreed to let me go. It was also a relief because after winning the under-20 World Cup all of my team-mates went to big clubs or were playing with their respective clubs. I didn’t get the chance This was a bit disappointing from my point of view.”

Such a feeling should certainly come as a warning for English teams, with such an abundance of talent in the Premier League likely feeling the same way Veljkovic did after his summer triumph.


Worth a full read
Exclusive: Milos Veljkovic – Werder Bremen hopes, World Cup chances and Spurs exit
 
Spursidol said:
Talking of youngsters going abroad to get chances, an interesting interview with Milos Velijkovic who many/most youth watchers thought was a nailed on future first teamer for Spurs but who left in 2016 for £300k to Werder Bremen.

Now aged 22 he's a first team regular at Werder Bremen having played over 60 games and almost certainly part of Serbia's World Cup squad this summer. His value now - difficult to say but anywhere between £25m and £45m would be my guess.....especially as he would qualify as a home grown player for PL clubs.

In the interview he talks of his immense pride both for himself and his country at winning the u20 World Cup as part of a 'golden generation' of Serbian players, but against all expectations that they should win. The interview then goes on -

But it (the u20 world cup win) was also one of the catalysts that pushed him out of Tottenham Hotspur. Veljkovic, who had played just three times for Spurs, felt his time to play regular first-team football had come:
“It was a really big experience for me but then to come back to Tottenham and not get a chance that also got me a bit upset.”
“After this, I wanted to be able to get a chance. Obviously, I can’t play every game then but I needed a chance or I needed to go somewhere else. So that was what I decided.
“Unfortunately I could not go straight away to Werder Bremen but after six months the club agreed to let me go. It was also a relief because after winning the under-20 World Cup all of my team-mates went to big clubs or were playing with their respective clubs. I didn’t get the chance This was a bit disappointing from my point of view.”

Such a feeling should certainly come as a warning for English teams, with such an abundance of talent in the Premier League likely feeling the same way Veljkovic did after his summer triumph.


Worth a full read
Exclusive: Milos Veljkovic – Werder Bremen hopes, World Cup chances and Spurs exit
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That attitude is actually refreshing, so often in this country there is focus on the kids that are earning stupid money at the likes of Chelsea and are just happy at that, no desire to actual play football. Some may argue so what, to be earning +£50k pw at 16 isn't to be sniffed at, but for those that had seen Velkovic play you knew that there was a seriously talented player there and combine this with a right attitude, one where he backed himself by looking and push for opportunities to play and break though is commendable.

I also think it's good that Spurs wouldn't keep him under lock and key like say Chelsea do hoarding players, good not to stand in a players way if you can't give them what they want.

Again, I like the English lads now looking to go abroad to get game time, I think it's what has been missing for generations of English players not willing to leave the UK, up until now there has been no desire, no determined effort to make something happen. All you have to do is look at kids from all over the World leaving home in their desire to make it as a pro, but our lads historically so reticent to take such steps.

Dose anyone no how Azzaoui got on at Wolfsberg? Loved watching this kid on the ball, very exciting player. But haven't heard too much of him following his move.
 
Guido said:
dose anyone no how Azzaoui got on at Wolfsberg? Loved watching this kid on the ball, very exciting player. But haven't heard too much of him following his move.
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Funnily enough he popped up for Willem II the other day.

Think he's on loan from Wolfsburg.
 
Totti said:
Funnily enough he popped up for Willem II the other day.

Think he's on loan from Wolfsburg.
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Cheers. He was raw and nowhere near as developed as Veljkovic, so I was surprised that he left as he clearly had some way to go in his development before being trusted with an appearance in any the first team, let alone ours. From memory he was promised first team too ball, where I think he got a small number of appearances, in his first month or so.

Anyway, good fun to watch, one of those special layers when on the ball you crane your neck in anticipation to see he's about to do.
 
Joe Pritchard has confirmed on social media that he has left the lilywhites after 14 years at the club. Rumours on social media that Christian Maghoma will be going to Dutch side Twente upon expiration of his contract.
 
DerryLennon said:
Joe Pritchard has confirmed on social media that he has left the lilywhites after 14 years at the club. Rumours on social media that Christian Maghoma will be going to Dutch side Twente upon expiration of his contract.
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Can't say I am surprised.

Ogilvie is another one I'm surprised is still here too.
 
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