Poch is a good manager but can't be considered a great until he gets a trophy over the line which presently he has been unable to do, having said that I would not swap him because no one else would be prepared to put up with the way the club operates and yes agree with the rest of your post.
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Why do people expect an away game at Burnley, a team who finished 7th last year, qualified for the Europa qualifiers in what is arguably the most competitive league in the world, who are now 1 game away from being unbeaten for a quarter of a league campaign to be a given that it's down to us now showing up that made us lose?
Personally I think everything was going well until they scored, we had started to dictate the game we're doing our usual probing when a game evens out and that goal really gave them a 2nd wind to chase us down, harass us, sit deep and put their bodies on the line etc.
We lost our shape big time but I honestly think it's because the players panicked slightly. We needed two goals, weren't having much luck getting genuine efforts on goal and threw attackers on at the expense of our shape which ultimately led to their 2nd.
It's a real kick in the teeth granted but we are a growing football club. I can't understand why some people feel so self entitled when you've got a team like Liverpool, 1 loss in 26 games and a Man City team who people are talking about doing the quadruple. Two mega teams and we've kept pace longer than the rest despite all of our restraints.
It'll come good, we just have to keep looking at the positives, keep learning as a relatively young team bar a few of the older heads now and focus on developing further.
The most important thing for the club is it's long term stability, this season so far has only added and enhanced those prospects and whilst a league win would have been a beautiful thing, let's not take our eyes off the prize, the bread and butter which is top 4 in a very competitive big 6 challenger list and hopefully beating our record points for a Premier League season if we surpass 86. That's positive movement, that takes us one step closer to the holy grail.
All in all it's a shame but with no home advantage, no new signing boosts, the media potentially getting into the players and fe fans heads etc I think we've done excellent. A couple of hiccups but ones we hopefully learn from as the team finds itself in far better shape next season being back in N17.
Strewth mate.
I said all week it would be a hard match. No one said we turn up, say we are THFC, so be grateful you don't get whipped by more than 3 goals.
But we were hearing our manager talk of the game's significance. That means we HAD to win. That is not disrespectful or expectant but placing the onus and importance of victory on the table.
It's what big teams have to do. We didn't.
Ergo we are not ready to be winners.
Simple really.
So no arrogance but the normality of knowing that whatever the record of your opponent, when they are outside of the top 6, nothing but victory will do.
You can't win a title playing timid football, which is what we've served up in too many crunch matches. When Leicester won the league, they started every game with incredible intensity. Opponents knew they were going to suffer. City and Chelsea did the same thing in recent seasons, they played with authority. That's why they hardly lost any matches.
Yesterday we spent most of the first half letting Burnley box us into our own half where we happily passed it sideways and did nothing. We never took control of the game in a meaningful way, we never intimidated their players or made their crowd nervous. We were easy to play against in every aspect. Of course Burnley play a style of football that can make a top team look shit if they do it well, but that's when a top team wins through hard work instead. Can we really say that we worked harder than Burnley? That we were stronger than them? That's why we won't win the title. Of course you can always lose a game of football but to win a title you have to have incredibly high standards, much higher than we have.
Deep down the team doesn't believe they can win the title, there is no other explanation for their performance. Compare the way we played yesterday to the way Leicester played in their title season. They played with the confidence of champions. We played like a team that knows we are 3rd best.
Yesterday we spent most of the first half letting Burnley box us into our own half where we happily passed it sideways and did nothing. We never took control of the game in a meaningful way, we never intimidated their players or made their crowd nervous. We were easy to play against in every aspect. Of course Burnley play a style of football that can make a top team look shit if they do it well, but that's when a top team wins through hard work instead. Can we really say that we worked harder than Burnley? That we were stronger than them? That's why we won't win the title. Of course you can always lose a game of football but to win a title you have to have incredibly high standards, much higher than we have.
Deep down the team doesn't believe they can win the title, there is no other explanation for their performance. Compare the way we played yesterday to the way Leicester played in their title season. They played with the confidence of champions. We played like a team that knows we are 3rd best.
Man City lost a must win match against Newcastle barely 3 weeks ago. Liverpool threw away a 3 points against the likes of Leicester who have just been thumped 4-1 at home against Palace, or maximum points away to West Ham when the ref gave them not one but 2 blatant offside decisions, it happens at this time of the season.
You've got a Burnley team fighting for their life, in a rich vein of form, a team that apart from PSG are the only team to take any points off of Man U since Solskjaer took over in December, a Man U team that has during that time won away at Woolwich, Chelsea & Tottenham which not a lot of teams if any will achieve this season.
Anyone can see that this season we've struggled to find our tempo for whatever reason, be it a lack of pre-season, fatigue, having to endure Wembley etc and whilst the result was a sickener they are a very dogged team that can get eight in your faces and if things drop their way which it clearly did when they needed a touch or two yesterday, can make it very hard to break them down.
Personally I think we tried to play football too much instead of match them for the scrap. We persevered with our way of playing which, this season for some reason hasn't consisted of intricate passing but for me an over reliance of our wing backs who don't find their man enough when space opens up to them. I'd be interested to see how many crosses we had yesterday or a view of our heatmap to see how frequently we got it out to the wings only to not make the most of that space they offered us by stifling the middle. Maybe this is something
bus-conductor
can supply as I know he is into these kind of thingsMan City lost a must win match against Newcastle barely 3 weeks ago. Liverpool threw away a 3 points against the likes of Leicester who have just been thumped 4-1 at home against Palace, or maximum points away to West Ham when the ref gave them not one but 2 blatant offside decisions, it happens at this time of the season.
You've got a Burnley team fighting for their life, in a rich vein of form, a team that apart from PSG are the only team to take any points off of Man U since Solskjaer took over in December, a Man U team that has during that time won away at Woolwich, Chelsea & Tottenham which not a lot of teams if any will achieve this season.
Anyone can see that this season we've struggled to find our tempo for whatever reason, be it a lack of pre-season, fatigue, having to endure Wembley etc and whilst the result was a sickener they are a very dogged team that can get eight in your faces and if things drop their way which it clearly did when they needed a touch or two yesterday, can make it very hard to break them down.
Personally I think we tried to play football too much instead of match them for the scrap. We persevered with our way of playing which, this season for some reason hasn't consisted of intricate passing but for me an over reliance of our wing backs who don't find their man enough when space opens up to them. I'd be interested to see how many crosses we had yesterday or a view of our heatmap to see how frequently we got it out to the wings only to not make the most of that space they offered us by stifling the middle. Maybe this is something
No mate City did not lose a must win game because they are still in it.
We lost a game we needed to win.
But the biggest difference is that in City's DNA is the marker of winners. In our DNA is the marker of losers.
Argue as much as you like but this is reality over optimism talking and until we change the ending it will be the same.
Well the only reason they are still in it is because 24 hours later Liverpool blew the chance to go 7 points clear of them. It went from a must win to a get out of jail because BOTH teams dropped points, the same as we did yesterday against teams deemed inferior opposition.
Liverpool let them back in so who is to say these teams won't drop further points and let us back in & if they do does our DNA change as you've said because of others shortcomings or because of our ability to win important games like City & Liverpool have failed to do recently as well?
As for the DNA argument, the reason Man City have been able to develop this so called winning mindset probably has to do with the following that you chose to ignore:
Manchester City - All transfers
Man City have spent the most money of European teams in the last decade | Daily Mail Online
They have literally spent more money than any team on the planet acquiring player after player, some successes, some flops over a decade to get to where they are now. Comparing us to them is so brutally harsh on the team we support and branding us losers when we are competitive with this, along with a Liverpool team that was able to break not just one but TWO transfer records last calendar year isn't on.
We sing off a different hymn sheet to these guys. We've equalled our record for away wins in a league season, one more breaks that record, it's a mentality that is slowly evolving at the club but if even it's own fans moan and throw a strop when it doesn't go perfectly to plan then we'll have no chance. To say that losing is in our DNA is a bit pathetic mate, being the 6th biggest club and finishing 2nd & 3rd are bigger achievements than you give us credit for and it's helping us grow a genuinely sustainable model if everything keeps moving in the direction it's heading
Had we not beaten Chelsea at home... or got late winners against Newcastle & Watford, yesterday's match would've been pretty much meaningless... ALL games are 'must win' if you're going for a title... as ALL dropped points could be costly.. even early on in the season.
The pressure has been on from August, if we want to be where we are right now, EVERY game this season has been must win.... and so far, we've either won or lost.
Some defeats COULD'VE been draws (and a point gained) but PLENTY of games we were drawing, we've gone on to win, and GAINED two points we might otherwise have dropped.
Personally, I thought yesterday had our first draw written all over it... I'd even dreamt it ended 2-2 earlier this week... so was convinced we'd equalise at the end... more fool me! But with that in mind, it's only a point dropped... and we've gained WAY more points than we've dropped, so I've got to be pragmatic.
The only difference is that yesterday, Sky FINALLY decided we were in the Title race, about 2 seconds after Burnley scored, JUST so they could say we blew it!
I'm not a fan on of 'Murrican Football... but I DO like the idea of a transfer spending cap... if ALL PL clubs were only allowed to spend, say between (ooh, summit 'modest', like) £50-100m per season, that wouldn't half reign in some of the free spenders!!
Pains me to defend
Pains me to defend that lot but I'll rather be winning ANY competitive trophies than beating the Reals, Barcas, Dortmunds of this world only to fall short of winning the actual competition itself. But I can see where you're coming from just that I disagree
Course we can dream but reality is different
It's an incorrect assertion to say every game is a must win.
114 points is never needed to win a Prem title although it guarantees it.
You forget the games you drop points in and then you take your chance until that chance disappears.
When you lose 6 games that is nearly always too many. Our weird season has of course seen us win 20.
Yesterday we had another and in my opinion last chance. Not because winning our last 11 games would not be enough but because we released any pressure that might have been applied to Liverpool and City.
Like being a goal up against Juventus and United last season and losing both cup games.
The squad is no longer young. The manager no longer inexperienced.
And yet we fall short. It's a hurdle we need to get over and is why the pundits will be proved right that although we could have been in it we were never really in it.
We HAVE cemented a top THREE place for three years now and look pretty secure again for that-its moving to the next level which seems a little out of our reach and which is probably rightly or wrongly frustrating people.
Where we are now in the league is where we deserve to be imho though and that and a cup run is all we can expect as you say-you cannot lose seven games to liverpools 1 and claim to be on their or citys level but we are far better than the rest so third is where we should be however, fucking Burnley-I just knew this was the banana skin game for the last two weeks and sure enough we put out a ridiculously strong team and get bullied into a defeat when we needed a win most AGAIN.
We are so much better than the other 17 teams in the league bar city and liverpool. its a handful of these games we are losing that is killing us though, if we went to anfield or the etihad and put a huge effort in and got beaten fair enough but losing to watford wolves and burnley when all those games would have had us within touching distance is a massive problem for us and the manager.
Ah, but it's also an incorrect assertion to confuse "must win" with going to win"
...Semantics, maybe, but i'm talking about a mindset going into a game where you play only to win.
Whether you do or not, is up to the dynamics of the game, and the performance on the day... but (if you wanna win a title) you can NEVER go into a game with a 'just don't lose' mentality, or it gets you unstuck.
Yesterday I truly believe the players wanted to win, but critically, I also believe they simply THOUGHT they'd win...
which is different to making SURE you do!
Agreed but credit the club where credit is due. No home advantage for nearly 2 seasons now whilst trying to temporarily bed into a new home, half full stadiums, a team that, I feel may benefit from one or two new faces in certain departments but not to a critical level, plus teams around us chucking silly money about to enhance their chances.
Since we last signed a glut of players & broke our transfer record the following teams have made steps to push up closer or surpass us:
Woolwich have surpassed our transfer record twice, (Aubemayang & Lacazette)
Manchester United have surpassed our record outlay in that space of time three times (Fred, Lukaku & Matic)
Chelsea five times (Kepa - a world record fee for a GK, Jorginho, Pulisic, Bakayoko & Morata)
Liverpool five times (Allison, Keita, Fabinho, Salah & Van Dijk, two of which were world record transfers for their respective positions)
Man City five times (Mahrez, Bernardo Silva, Walker, Laporte, Mendy)
Even Everton have shelled out more than we have for a player on two occasions (Sigurdsson & Richarlison) and West Ham have as well if certain fees floating around online are to be believed (Felipe Anderson)
Hindsight we can look back on the decisions we've made/ haven't made to see where we could have made tweaks but for all of those teams to have invested heavily on real quality and for us to still be ahead or just slightly behind them I think is huge testament to how the club have moved forward. We haven't got many new faces that teams haven't sussed out yet, teams don't need to study us as much to work out how to stifle us so we really are at more disadvantages than people realise. All thigs considered for us to be a clear third where a positive result yesterday and in the home game against Liverpool earlier in the season would have put us above them is a big achievement in itself, trophy or no trophy.
People are getting frustrated and I understand why but we are punching well above our weight as others have tried to squeeze the gap. A little more patience is required I feel. The longer the nucleus stays together, the stronger we'll become.
The reason I do not like this thread is you are not in the race for the title when 5 points behind or in January. Start dreaming about winning titles is the wrong mentality. Am I happy at the way things are going , basically yes. That is not the question. Get to the League cup semi final and yes start to think you can win it. Unfortunately we had a massive injury problem and lost. We were never in the race to win the F A cup as we lost in the 4th round. We are very definitely in the race for CL next season and the best way of getting it is by taking the next match as the most important and winning it. We could end up anywhere within the top 6 but with players getting fit again, I am confident we will do well and end up in top 4.
We have never got past the QF of CL and until we do I will not even consider we can win it. However will be happy to get to the last 8. Hope for a good draw and then look to get to the semi.
I always want Spurs to win and if we play Everton at the end of the season and our position in the league will not change win, lose or draw will still want them to win.
This is not a lack of confidence in the team as some have suggested but keeping one's feet on the ground and taking it 1 step at a time.
As a long time supporter I have seen us win many trophies but these days every match seems to be a must win match and yet we have lost 7 PL matches and still having a good season. Perhaps we need to loosen the pressure and things may go better.
It is clear many will disagree but that is my opinion. Let MC and Liverpool dream of the title and the pressure that brings. MC talking about the quadruple. Good let them have that pressure. For us we stay under the radar.
I know many disagree with this view but that is my opinion and I will need to see us closer than 5 points to the top in February to start thinking about a title.
We have never got past the QF of CL and until we do I will not even consider we can win it. However will be happy to get to the last 8. Hope for a good draw and then look to get to the semi.
I always want Spurs to win and if we play Everton at the end of the season and our position in the league will not change win, lose or draw will still want them to win.
This is not a lack of confidence in the team as some have suggested but keeping one's feet on the ground and taking it 1 step at a time.
As a long time supporter I have seen us win many trophies but these days every match seems to be a must win match and yet we have lost 7 PL matches and still having a good season. Perhaps we need to loosen the pressure and things may go better.
It is clear many will disagree but that is my opinion. Let MC and Liverpool dream of the title and the pressure that brings. MC talking about the quadruple. Good let them have that pressure. For us we stay under the radar.
I know many disagree with this view but that is my opinion and I will need to see us closer than 5 points to the top in February to start thinking about a title.
In regards to the nucleus of the team it's inevitable that some will leave which is part of football and how it works, will eriksen be more patient and wait another 4/5 year's to see if sucesss comes our way I think it's unlikely.
Player's have a limited shelf life so they won't wait around they will go to where they think success and bigger wages are on offer which is sad but part of the money saturated game that we now have.
Agreed but people forget how many players Woolwich had to sell when balancing the new stadium move with the playing team. If we can keep the likes of Sonny, Kane, Dele etc for another 4-5 seasons it'll keep our talent levels close enough to stay where we are and apif we get any future signings on the money possibly progress further. We've sold the likes of Bale, Modric, Berbatov etc and found a way to improve, losing a key player or two doesn't need to be as vital as some make it out to be
This has been a thoughtful and informative exchange of posts as of late. I’ve appreciated it, and agree with much of what has been said (especially by Park Lane Mark Twain).
The arc of this season has seemed to be, if you follow this thread: we were in the title race, and then we were out of it, and then we were back in it, and then back out now. It can feel like whiplash, but my view is: there’s no harm in dreaming big. Winning the league, by any metric, was always a long shot this year. Levy and Poch are playing the long game here, building a team that is resourced competitively with the five richest teams. This year—as we still claw towards the new stadium, absorbing the financial burden it entails in the short term, holding off on transfers while our richer (still) competitors fortify—winning would take everything breaking right. But this is the domestic league where that is possible, because it is the best league in the world. Bayern and Madrid can creak along with one propeller spinning and still cruise near the top of the table, while in the EPL teams like Burnley yesterday, Wolves all year, etc. demonstrate how any team can win on any day. As long as that is true, and for as long as we are mathematically alive, there’s no harm in dreaming big.
But—of course—this remains the long game. Right now, when you objectively look at Liverpool and City, they are where they are in the table for a reason. There’s always a puncher’s chance, as long as there’s rounds left in the fight. For myself, I am glad we are sitting here in late February still looking at coming weeks’ matches and seeing if there’s math that gets us there. I refuse to get melancholy, when, like yesterday, the odds get longer. They were always long, so feeling like there’s a chance at all is playing with house money.
The arc of this season has seemed to be, if you follow this thread: we were in the title race, and then we were out of it, and then we were back in it, and then back out now. It can feel like whiplash, but my view is: there’s no harm in dreaming big. Winning the league, by any metric, was always a long shot this year. Levy and Poch are playing the long game here, building a team that is resourced competitively with the five richest teams. This year—as we still claw towards the new stadium, absorbing the financial burden it entails in the short term, holding off on transfers while our richer (still) competitors fortify—winning would take everything breaking right. But this is the domestic league where that is possible, because it is the best league in the world. Bayern and Madrid can creak along with one propeller spinning and still cruise near the top of the table, while in the EPL teams like Burnley yesterday, Wolves all year, etc. demonstrate how any team can win on any day. As long as that is true, and for as long as we are mathematically alive, there’s no harm in dreaming big.
But—of course—this remains the long game. Right now, when you objectively look at Liverpool and City, they are where they are in the table for a reason. There’s always a puncher’s chance, as long as there’s rounds left in the fight. For myself, I am glad we are sitting here in late February still looking at coming weeks’ matches and seeing if there’s math that gets us there. I refuse to get melancholy, when, like yesterday, the odds get longer. They were always long, so feeling like there’s a chance at all is playing with house money.
I expect us to lose player's but what we replace them with is key because we can't/don't spend out on big ready made players and wages instead favouring younger rough diamond's which take time and development to come to fruition then sell on and repeat the cycle.
So are we better off buying and selling or throwing that money at long term contracts on bigger wages to keep a tried and tested nucleus sweet like we have done the likes of Kane, Dele, Poch, Son, Davinson etc whereby we only buy when we need to sell like we would have to in the summer should Eriksen depart?
The best money we spent was pinning those that we could do down with 5 year, 6 year deals. We've forked out huge sums for what we usually lay out to our staff with £165k a week to Pochettino, £150k to Del and soon to be Sonny if rumours are to be believed and £200k to Harry. I guarantee the club tried doing the same with Toby & Christian but they ain't playing ball so we'll replace as and when
Yeah imagine having to inherit the 3rd best team in England and walk out at the new stadium next season.
What a shit cunt scenario for any manager to have to contemplate if he came to Spurs..terrible, terrible situation.
Luckily for them we are so much of a joke and a shambles that they don’t have to even consider it.
Should just go straight to Leicester