January 2013 Transfer Window DISCUSSION Thread

[sammyspurs]

I do not really see Dembele as an effective AM - but that is besides the point I was trying to make.

If we play Moutinho a first team player has to drop out.

Already, at any given time we have Huddlestone/Parker/Sigurdsson/Livermore not in the team.

Introducing Moutinho and pushing Dembele forward adds Dempsey to that list.

Alternatively introducing Moutinho and keeping Dempsey adds Dembele or Sandro to that list.

I dont see us as a club with enough status to keep players like these happy on the bench. If we had a title race and regular CL games perhaps, but with the best will in the world that isnt us at this point.

This is also what Im getting at.

If the midfield is not working out, and we need him then fine, but Im putting out there the situation we could well be in, which is an excellent proven working partnership of Sandro and Dembele.

If we are sitting for example, strongly in 3rd place at christmas, and playing more and more like the 1st half at OT, I certainly could find no reason to sign Moutinho and drop Dembele.

 

[sammyspurs]

in agreement with everything sammy just said.

[ Image ]

 

[penpen]

I'd be worried about how we are doing things if one minute we are willing to splash £20million on a player then within a matter of months we decide its not worth it anymore.

Well, that isn't exactly accurate. That scenario assumes that no intermediate action was taken. We picked up guy named Dembele, remember? If Dembele is working well in our first team, and costs less than Moutinho to boot, why shell out more money?

I'm with Lister on this one. Not saying that we couldn't use Moutinho anymore, or that he wouldn't be a great player for us, but I do think that our area of greatest need is on the wing.

I think this gets the timeline wrong. We all thought the purchase of Dembele meant that Moutinho was foreclosed, but all the significant movement and last second negotiations, including Levy's decision to pay up the full amount demanded by Porto, occurred after we already purchased Dembele. Clearly AVB was envisioning fitting both into the team for whatever reason. If anything it was the last minute purchase of Dempsey when Moutinho seemed in doubt that suggests we may not go back for Moutinho, as it means we have both Siggy and Dempsey available for the CAM role. Before Dempsey came in, Siggy's only real backup would have been pushing Dembele forward.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

Fair enough, but the question still remains, if Dembele is playing well, why shell out another 25+ million just to put him on the bench?

 

[Pyro_era]

Fair enough, but the question still remains, if Dembele is playing well, why shell out another 25+ million just to put him on the bench?

Real madrid did the same thing

 

[sammyspurs]

Fair enough, but the question still remains, if Dembele is playing well, why shell out another 25+ million just to put him on the bench?

Exactly this.

We also now have the added scenario of Defoe playing out of his skin, and its no secret AVB is a BIG fan of his. If Defoe keeps up this form, not only is he going to give Ade a run for his money as a lone striker, but he will also cement that supporting role in a 442.

As things stand, Dembele has one position, and if things continue to improve, Id be concerned if we dropped him.

He'd start for Man U, imo, and that says a hell of alot.

 

[sammyspurs]

Fair enough, but the question still remains, if Dembele is playing well, why shell out another 25+ million just to put him on the bench?

Real madrid did the same thing

Haha true.

The fact we dont have multiple debates raging about how much we miss Modric speaks volumes. In my opinion, we dont.

 

[ArcspacE]

I do not really see Dembele as an effective AM - but that is besides the point I was trying to make.

If we play Moutinho a first team player has to drop out.

Already, at any given time we have Huddlestone/Parker/Sigurdsson/Livermore not in the team.

Introducing Moutinho and pushing Dembele forward adds Dempsey to that list.

Alternatively introducing Moutinho and keeping Dempsey adds Dembele or Sandro to that list.

I dont see us as a club with enough status to keep players like these happy on the bench. If we had a title race and regular CL games perhaps, but with the best will in the world that isnt us at this point.

Huddlestone was as good as gone. Parker would struggle to get into any AVB side.

As for the first bolded bit - you are only seeing them as first-teamers because they have been playing. If Moutinho was here - you would have added Dempsey to your first list.

Two questions

- who is our playmaker at the moment
- who covers to Dembele if he is unavailable. Surely not Huddlestone. He's not even part of Avi B's equation, mate

 

[ArcspacE]

Fair enough, but the question still remains, if Dembele is playing well, why shell out another 25+ million just to put him on the bench?

He won't be on the bench - would be deployed as AM most likely

I trust the manager and Levy on this one - they envisaged Moutinho to be a necessary purchase on 31 August and nearly doubled our previous transfer record fee (Bent / Modric). In fact - he was our no.1 from the very beginning, I would imagine.

Sorry but this is the equivalent to being able to purchase Di Maria and someone arguing about Lennon's place. Superior players earn their spots. The same way Lloris is about to enter and earn his spot purely based on ability, etc.

 

[Lister]

Huddlestone was as good as gone. Parker would struggle to get into any AVB side.

As for the first bolded bit - you are only seeing them as first-teamers because they have been playing. If Moutinho was here - you would have added Dempsey to your first list.

Two questions

- who is our playmaker at the moment
- who covers to Dembele if he is unavailable. Surely not Huddlestone. He's not even part of Avi B's equation, mate

Huddlestone was only ever going to Stoke to get fit, he is here now and he is getting games.

Parker would do just fine in an AVB side, which relies heavily on having someone shield the defence.

Dembele is in effect our playmaker right now. Not in the most traditional sense, but he is the guy getting the ball forward and opening up spaces (albeit through dribbling rather than passing)

If Dembele is out Huddlestone slots in for me, or we switch to a more defensive midfield two and change the system a bit to accommodate.

If Moutinho comes in we have players good enough for a top 4 sides starting 11 on the bench, while on paper that sounds amazing in practice I question whether or not it is manageable for us currently.

 

[ArcspacE]

Huddlestone was only ever going to Stoke to get fit, he is here now and he is getting games.

What 'games' is he getting, mate? 4 mins in the Prem and some League Cup outings? He should leave in January for the sake of his own career. He was never a playmaker, and I doubt he ever would be utlisied as such. Even in our first 4th place season under Arry he played alongside Modric as the DM figure/ball playing mid.

Parker would do just fine in an AVB side, which relies heavily on having someone shield the defence.

Nearly suffers a nose bleed every time he dares to cross the half-way line and prefers endless 1-2 5-yarders with the CBs much like Jenas used to. Sandro is exponentially more versatile in his game. If Arry takes charge or QPR I hope he comes for his boy and we re-coup a few pessos on a nearly 32-year old fairly limited player

Dembele is in effect our playmaker right now. Not in the most traditional sense, but he is the guy getting the ball forward and opening up spaces (albeit through dribbling rather than passing)

If Dembele is out Huddlestone slots in for me, or we switch to a more defensive midfield two and change the system a bit to accommodate.

Therein lies the rub - Dembele's passing range is nowhere near the versatility required - he has other maginificent qualities such as dribbling and ball control but to expect to step into a play-maker role could be a little far fetched. And even so - once he unavailable we are royally fukcked, imv. Hudd is not that player - if anything - he can cover well for Sandro or Parker.

If Moutinho comes in we have players good enough for a top 4 sides starting 11 on the bench, while on paper that sounds amazing in practice I question whether or not it is manageable for us currently.

Who are those players?

- Dempsey - above average striker who came from a Top 10 PL side
- Sigurdsson - a VdV understudy with considerable potential who arrived from the mighty Swansea
- Hudd - wouldn't get into any Top 5 PL side including ours as it has been proven already this season (starting 11 that is). As good as sold
- Livermore - he was always a utility / squad player
- Parker - ageing player with substantial experience

 

[ArcspacE]

Bottom line for me - Moutinho is a class player and levels above what we currently have in midfield (mostly) - if a player of his quality is willing to come to us (top 6 PL non-CL regular / non G14) side - we should be biting their hand off first and worrying about our subs later

 

[Lister]

What 'games' is he getting, mate? 4 mins in the Prem and some League Cup outings? He should leave in January for the sake of his own career. He was never a playmaker, and I doubt he ever would be utlisied as such. Even in our first 4th place season under Arry he played alongside Modric as the DM figure/ball playing mid.

Given that we have lost once all season, are on a winning streak and have just won at OT I would suggest that perhaps while a playmaker is a nice to have, it isnt a 'must'

Huddlestone was being sent to Stoke TO GET FIT, is it of any surprise that he has had limited appearances while HE GETS FIT? He is getting games though, which is entirely relevant - were he not of importance to the club I highly doubt we would persist with him.

I also think he was excellent when we finished 4th, which, because it was a while ago now is often forgotten/overlooked.

Nearly suffers a nose bleed every time he dares to cross the half-way line and prefers endless 1-2 5-yarders with the CBs much like Jenas used to. Sandro is exponentially more versatile in his game. If Arry takes charge or QPR I hope he comes for his boy and we re-coup a few pessos on a nearly 32-year old fairly limited player

Sandro is the better all round player, I have absolutely no doubt.

But, AVBs way of playing relies on a defensive minded CM to drop into defensive positions and not leave us exposed. Particularly with adventurous full backs. Parker has more than proven to be excellent in this particular role.

Therein lies the rub - Dembele's passing range is nowhere near the versatility required - he has other maginificent qualities such as dribbling and ball control but to expect to step into a play-maker role could be a little far fetched. And even so - once he unavailable we are royally fukcked, imv. Hudd is not that player - if anything - he can cover well for Sandro or Parker.

You are the only one talking about playmakers. For me things are working well at the moment and look like they may improve a great deal more. I really like Dembele/Sandros blossoming partnership. With Dembele out we will need to change things around a bit, but its still perfectly serviceable with the players we have.

Who are those players?

- Dempsey - above average striker who came from a Top 10 PL side
- Sigurdsson - a VdV understudy with considerable potential who arrived from the mighty Swansea
- Hudd - wouldn't get into any Top 5 PL side including ours as it has been proven already this season (starting 11 that is). As good as sold
- Livermore - he was always a utility / squad player
- Parker - ageing player with substantial experience

These are all first team quality players at big clubs (Livermore accepted). I think Sigurdsson is young enough to accept a place on the bench, I dont think Dempsey, Huddlestone or Parker are the sorts to accept as much in the long term though. Also, should Moutinho join that leaves Dembele or Sandro in the same boat as well.

Like I said, great on paper - my fear is how manageable that is in practice

 

[AlMacca_]

Are we really talking about this at the beginning of October?

 

[sammyspurs]

Does anyone know hows he's doing this season, or is it just another case of "lets whip myself into a frenzy over the new MUST HAVE signing"

:dawson: :gomes:

 

[ArcspacE]

Given that we have lost once all season, are on a winning streak and have just won at OT I would suggest that perhaps while a playmaker is a nice to have, it isnt a 'must'

Huddlestone was being sent to Stoke TO GET FIT, is it of any surprise that he has had limited appearances while HE GETS FIT? He is getting games though, which is entirely relevant - were he not of importance to the club I highly doubt we would persist with him.


I also think he was excellent when we finished 4th, which, because it was a while ago now is often forgotten/overlooked.

Whatever PR we choose to spin on this - he won't start ahead of a fit Dembele, Sandro, Sigurdsson and possibly even Parker. Willing to place a friendly bet with you on how many PL games he'd start before January - 0 - 2 would be my guess.

Yes he was good back then but that was 4 years ago and players (as you would agree, I sure) should be picked on current form, not past merits

Sandro is the better all round player, I have absolutely no doubt.

But, AVBs way of playing relies on a defensive minded CM to drop into defensive positions and not leave us exposed. Particularly with adventurous full backs. Parker has more than proven to be excellent in this particular role.

Ironically - I'd rather have Hudd ahead of Sandro at DM but something tells me AVB would opt for the latter

You are the only one talking about playmakers. For me things are working well at the moment and look like they may improve a great deal more. I really like Dembele/Sandros blossoming partnership. With Dembele out we will need to change things around a bit, but its still perfectly serviceable with the players we have.

To be fair - against both Norwich and WBA we underperformed. Then played well against one of the weakest teams in the PL, scraped against QPR, and parked the bus against Utd second half when their midfield took charge and ours was steam-rolled. Even so - we need versatility and cover and cannot rely on only 2 players to stay fit for 40 games and pefrorm to a high standrad

On a separate note - yes, a deep-lying playmaker is not always essential in every formation - Mourinho's Chelsea won 2 PL titles on the trot without one but I strongly feel the overall balance of our side is strongly geared towards one. Much like Liverpool struggled for years (and still do to an extent) to replace Alonso.

These are all first team quality players at big clubs (Livermore accepted). I think Sigurdsson is young enough to accept a place on the bench, I dont think Dempsey, Huddlestone or Parker are the sorts to accept as much in the long term though. Also, should Moutinho join that leaves Dembele or Sandro in the same boat as well.

Like I said, great on paper - my fear is how manageable that is in practice

They are squad players at big clubs, mate - much like they're with us (nothing disrespectful in that). Dempsey knows he'd never be 1st choice - not here nor at Pool. Hudd knows the same and if he wasn't happy - would have taken Stoke's offer. Parker is 32 soon and should be realistic

As for the last sentence - I think if AVB wanted him so badly in the summer - he must have had a pretty good idea of how to manage it - just my feeling.

 

[S.L.R]

Interesting debate but would Porto sell him to us in January? I thought when they did their business with Zenit that closed the door.

 

[MKYid]

Most of this is based on us retaining our wing play, which we might not do in the future. AVB suggested Hudd would work well in a 4-3-3 when fit. Sandro-Hudd-Dembele as a midfield 3? If we change the way we play, Moutinho suddenly becomes a viable proposition again.

Between Moutinho, Sandro, Hudd, Dembele, and Parker we would have numerous options in how to approach games with a 3-man mid.

 

[sammyspurs]

Most of this is based on us retaining our wing play, which we might not do in the future.

I cant see that changing any time soon to be honest.

We can make it out to be rocket science all we want, but my initial point at the start of this was that if the team evolves around Dembele and Sandro in the middle, and we continue to improve with more performances like the 1st half at Man U, it would be a shame to drop Dembele and spend 20-30M on Moutinho.

 

[henryp0p]

MOUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTINNNNNNNHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO