Giovani Lo Celso

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This is my thinking too. We could have got Gueye for 30 million, granted he's not young but he still would have been a cracking signing. Likewise the young DM Everton signed to replace him, Gbamin, was only 25 million and is a really good prospect. Roma signed Diawara from Napoli for 20ish million etc etc. The options were there.

It seems to be a really undervalued position and it'll probably come back to bite us the fact we decided not to upgrade it. Winks was great on the ball Saturday, but he really offers little to no protection to the back four, which is a huge part of the role it looks like he'll have to play this season.
Yea, so we are totally on the same page then :thumbup:

As much as I hope Wanyama to turn to his best... I don't see the odds being too good. And Dier does not fully convince me as DM there. Having some Kante-like or even Gueye-like (btw, I was advocating buying him before he was sold from Aston Villa to Everton) guy in the mix with Ndombele, Sissoko and Winks is just mouthwatering. Say playing with Ndombele-Gueye-Sissoko, we would have 3 different kinds of CM - one more of a playmaker/forward-thinking; one shielding the defence; one being box-to-box runner who is good carrying the ball.
 

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Yea, so we are totally on the same page then :thumbup:

As much as I hope Wanyama to turn to his best... I don't see the odds being too good. And Dier does not fully convince me as DM there. Having some Kante-like or even Gueye-like (btw, I was advocating buying him before he was sold from Aston Villa to Everton) guy in the mix with Ndombele, Sissoko and Winks is just mouthwatering. Say playing with Ndombele-Gueye-Sissoko, we would have 3 different kinds of CM - one more of a playmaker/forward-thinking; one shielding the defence; one being box-to-box runner who is good carrying the ball.
While I agree that these are very valuable players in certain games, those are about 10% of our matches. Most teams who come to White Hart Lane (or even when we go to their place) set up to frustrate us. So it was much more important to get someone like Lo Celso in, who can hopefully break down a stubborn defence.
 
It's actually very different to the castillan spoken in Spain to the be fair. The term 'Spanish' is also pretty political when all is said and done. There are after all four different languages spoken in Spain. Five if you count andalusia lol.
When they were doing the Spanish version of Jeff Wayne's musical of War of The Worlds they got Anthony Quinn to do the voice of the journalist. It was only after they'd recorded it and released it that they realised that they had to do a "European" Spanish version as it's very different.
 
While I agree that these are very valuable players in certain games, those are about 10% of our matches. Most teams who come to White Hart Lane (or even when we go to their place) set up to frustrate us. So it was much more important to get someone like Lo Celso in, who can hopefully break down a stubborn defence.
I disagree.
Even in games we dominate, we need shield to back 4.

I think case in point was the Villa game, where I honestly believe that designated DM would have helped in the situation where we conceded goal. And if we wouldn't have conceded this one, we wouldnt have needed to hit against the wall as badly (goal gave them reason to become even way more defensive).

So generally it is not an issue that we need to attack more/better - I just believe that having a rock in midfield would just allow our other CMs and even AMs to focus more on attacking and less on thinking about defending.

I mean the season when Wanyama was the tank in DM we scored 86 and conceded 26 (!) GD of +60. Two seasons following the numbers have been +74-36=38 and +67-39=28. So we scored the most and conceded least while we had such a strong support to the defense in DM position. Of course there have been other factors as well there, but I generally believe that Wanyama had very significant impact in that year.
 

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I disagree.
Even in games we dominate, we need shield to back 4.

I think case in point was the Villa game, where I honestly believe that designated DM would have helped in the situation where we conceded goal. And if we wouldn't have conceded this one, we wouldnt have needed to hit against the wall as badly (goal gave them reason to become even way more defensive).

So generally it is not an issue that we need to attack more/better - I just believe that having a rock in midfield would just allow our other CMs and even AMs to focus more on attacking and less on thinking about defending.

I mean the season when Wanyama was the tank in DM we scored 86 and conceded 26 (!) GD of +60. Two seasons following the numbers have been +74-36=38 and +67-39=28. So we scored the most and conceded least while we had such a strong support to the defense in DM position. Of course there have been other factors as well there, but I generally believe that Wanyama had very significant impact in that year.
It's a good point, especially regarding the goal we conceded against Villa. However I think, that this is a case of our midfield not tracking back. One of Ndombele, Winks or Sissoko should have picked up McGinn's run. We don't need a dedicated player to cover for other players not doing their jobs.
 
It's a good point, especially regarding the goal we conceded against Villa. However I think, that this is a case of our midfield not tracking back. One of Ndombele, Winks or Sissoko should have picked up McGinn's run. We don't need a dedicated player to cover for other players not doing their jobs.
I don't argue with that one bit :)

But it's part of what I said - if there would be Wanyamaesque tank there, Ndombele would not have to think so much about defensive side of his game and can focus more on doing what he does the best ;)
 
I disagree.
Even in games we dominate, we need shield to back 4.

I think case in point was the Villa game, where I honestly believe that designated DM would have helped in the situation where we conceded goal. And if we wouldn't have conceded this one, we wouldnt have needed to hit against the wall as badly (goal gave them reason to become even way more defensive).

So generally it is not an issue that we need to attack more/better - I just believe that having a rock in midfield would just allow our other CMs and even AMs to focus more on attacking and less on thinking about defending.

I mean the season when Wanyama was the tank in DM we scored 86 and conceded 26 (!) GD of +60. Two seasons following the numbers have been +74-36=38 and +67-39=28. So we scored the most and conceded least while we had such a strong support to the defense in DM position. Of course there have been other factors as well there, but I generally believe that Wanyama had very significant impact in that year.
Don't think Poch agrees with you that we want a pure DM, we were not linked with one during TW.

Only player who comes close was Ndombele who is more of a 6/8 hybrid and that seems to be the way Poch is going, very likely as its rare we need a pure DM, and in 90% of matches we are trying to break down defences from teams sitting back (which is where the 6/8 hybrid helps whereas a 6 can be a waste of space). So when we play 2 or 3 CM's expect to see several 6/8 hybrids not no 6's.

Not sure too many other top teams play with a pure DM these days either, probably for similar reasons

Wanyama's knees seem shot so don't think we'll see much of him, but I assume Dier will be more fit than last season if/when Poch thinks we want a DM/6, but that will be in pretty rare situations I suspect.
 
Don't think Poch agrees with you that we want a pure DM, we were not linked with one during TW.

Only player who comes close was Ndombele who is more of a 6/8 hybrid and that seems to be the way Poch is going, very likely as its rare we need a pure DM, and in 90% of matches we are trying to break down defences from teams sitting back (which is where the 6/8 hybrid helps whereas a 6 can be a waste of space). So when we play 2 or 3 CM's expect to see several 6/8 hybrids not no 6's.

Not sure too many other top teams play with a pure DM these days either, probably for similar reasons

Wanyama's knees seem shot so don't think we'll see much of him, but I assume Dier will be more fit than last season if/when Poch thinks we want a DM/6, but that will be in pretty rare situations I suspect.
The problem I see with that, is that it may be the case, that Dier or Wanyama are then chucked in to the biggest games, without enough playing time. Could be really difficult for them. I hope that doesn't happen, and instead we bring them on every now and then to shut out a game and keep them sharp, for when their time comes.
 
Don't think Poch agrees with you that we want a pure DM, we were not linked with one during TW.

Only player who comes close was Ndombele who is more of a 6/8 hybrid and that seems to be the way Poch is going, very likely as its rare we need a pure DM, and in 90% of matches we are trying to break down defences from teams sitting back (which is where the 6/8 hybrid helps whereas a 6 can be a waste of space). So when we play 2 or 3 CM's expect to see several 6/8 hybrids not no 6's.

Not sure too many other top teams play with a pure DM these days either, probably for similar reasons

Wanyama's knees seem shot so don't think we'll see much of him, but I assume Dier will be more fit than last season if/when Poch thinks we want a DM/6, but that will be in pretty rare situations I suspect.
Did you even read what i wrote?

More attacking minded players =/= breaking down defenses better.

While using Wanyama as DM, we did not struggle breaking teams down really. Actually vice versa - when we are shabby in defence (which we have been last two seasons all honestly) this means that us giving away the lead goal (like in Villa game, like quite a number of times last season) might mean that right then we have to start running against the wall. Because then other teams have something to "protect" ... usually with 10 men.

If we don't concede, we don't need to attack against the bus so actually having extra protection helps attacking play in such instances.

Yes, this might not be how Poch sees this, but I guess we can discuss our own views here, right :) ? Even if they don't allign with Poch ones.

P.S maybe a good time to disclose but my blueprint of exiting and successful football is Bayern in Heynces last full season when they won the treble. There Martinez was solid rock in front of defence.
 
Did you even read what i wrote?

More attacking minded players =/= breaking down defenses better.

While using Wanyama as DM, we did not struggle breaking teams down really. Actually vice versa - when we are shabby in defence (which we have been last two seasons all honestly) this means that us giving away the lead goal (like in Villa game, like quite a number of times last season) might mean that right then we have to start running against the wall. Because then other teams have something to "protect" ... usually with 10 men.

If we don't concede, we don't need to attack against the bus so actually having extra protection helps attacking play in such instances.

Yes, this might not be how Poch sees this, but I guess we can discuss our own views here, right :) ? Even if they don't allign with Poch ones.

P.S maybe a good time to disclose but my blueprint of exiting and successful football is Bayern in Heynces last full season when they won the treble. There Martinez was solid rock in front of defence.
All views can be discussed (and are welcome), but just suggesting you might be disappointed. And I do see your points to some extent and did read your original post.

But just to add to my comment on Poch. He has some say in the types of players recruited into the Academy, and having been here for 5 years, we'd expect to see Poch type players start t come through.

George Marsh (21 in November) is the only true DM in the youth set up now (almost certainly recruited before Poch), whilst the central midfield players are all 6/8 hybrids or 8's or 10's - no 6's. The 6/8 hybrids coming through after Skipp are good players - Harvey White who did well as makeshift LB this preseason but usually plays as a CM and Jamie Bowden who made brief appearances both this preseason and last are both players who I think we will see more of - all 3 of Skipp, White and Bowden have been seem training with the first team since pre-season.

All of the youth stuff I take as Poch having decided not to play with a pure DM (although with Dier and Wanyama still here he may do simply to rotate players)
 

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